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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: DragonChaser]
    #8230879 -

Hey man yea thats pretty nice I'm going to do 2 casings one with peat other with verm and i might even do one with just plain verm.

Do uno were i can get some lime at tho i heard adding a little of thats helps?


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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: Shroomial]
    #8232389 -

You don't have to add anything to Coir-it is perfect just the way it is!
WBS spawned to straw and cased with 100% Coco-Coir with nothing added to it, well, except for waterVVVVVVV








Hope that helps you make up your mind.

People don't want to listen when it concerns coir. They are still trying to say that it is only good for a substrate, but, that couldn't be any further from the truth.
Didn't mean to jump in your thread, just thought that you would like to see how great coir really is.

Why do things differently when they work so well?

How are you going to get any more mushrooms in those casings by adding anything else?
Better flushes by doing what?
My two pennies

Doc


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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: DragonChaser]
    #8233041 -

Quote:
A lot of people are just sticklers for the "non-nutritive" part.


Does coir hold any less water than verm?


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: buggas]
    #8234308 -

dang yea i liked the pics you had on sig. You seem really good at casings.


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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: doc34]
    #8235760 -

doc34 said:
Hope that helps you make up your mind.

People don't want to listen when it concerns coir. They are still trying to say that it is only good for a substrate, but, that couldn't be any further from the truth.
Didn't mean to jump in your thread, just thought that you would like to see how great coir really is.

Why do things differently when they work so well?

How are you going to get any more mushrooms in those casings by adding anything else?
Better flushes by doing what?
My two pennies

Doc


I don't know if i entirely agree that coir is ONLY good for a substrate. I can't even point specifically at anyone saying "ONLY" at all. At least not that i can remember, and not in that sense.

I think it's more like defending coir and saying that it's not ONLY good at being a casing. Which from what i've been reading, seems like it might be the case.

I've recently read that adding a bit more Nitrogen, it could maybe help potency. Don't quote me on that, but i think i read it somewhere here.

Granted, there are lots of things people add to the coir, but i think when you are talking about coir as a substrate, every bit of varied nutrition you can give them, the better. The key is knowing how much of what to give them for the best results, be it potency, volume, etc.

You look like you do well with it as a casing. I've always liked your sig pictures!!


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: buggas]
    #8236357 -

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a question.

I'm going to test this out, but I'd like to know if I'm just retarded (I've searched btw) and someone else has tried this before:

Layer of verm. Layer colonized sub. Layer of Coir/verm. Top layer of MG MC.

The way I see it, the MG MC will protect the nutritious layer of Coir.
Anyway, I'd appreciate some input. My only casing experiment thus far has just been crumbled cake with a casing layer and it turned out quite weak, so I'd like to boost my haul. I'll probably move to poo next, but I figure this is a bit easier.


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Let the Demons have their place, if so, it's angels you'll create.

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: Veter]
    #8237233 -

Why not leave out the verm and mix the coir with your substrate, then case it with MGMC? That will increase your amount of substrate 2 to 3 times and won't require anything other than what you currently have.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: buggas]
    #8237544 -

buggas said:
Quote:
A lot of people are just sticklers for the "non-nutritive" part.


Does coir hold any less water than verm?


I didn't mean water, just nutrients. Non-nutritive referring to peat moss.
I was saying that people prefer peat over coir because it is non-nutritive while coir is rich in mush food, and the definition of a casing layer is a non-nutritive layer applied to retain moisture, among other things.

But no, coir holds a lot more water than verm.


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My name is Mud

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: DragonChaser]
    #8237739 -

When it concerns coir vs peat. I have grown with peat and coir and I know for a fact(from first hand experience) that you can't get any more fruits from using either of the two-they both perform very well, except for the preparation part of each. Your flushes depend solely on the surface area, substrate, parameters(optimum), and water. Not your casing material(non-nutritive layer), This is where coir comes in, as the hands on favorite, due to its ease of preparation-adding nothing but water. But, peat is a little different as you must adjust the ph to make it suitable in mushroom cultivation, you can't use it straight out of the package like you can with coir- being the easiest for noobs to prepare. With coir, there is no adjusting anything, add water and wah-lah! Now people are trying to tell new members that coir is best suited as a substrate than a casing material and that is pure-Bull. I can't get any more mushrooms from using anything but coir and that depends only on how much water I can get into my substrate and casing material to support such a huge flush. I have and can still get flushes that are so thick that I have to damage each mushrooms stem, half way up to the cap and each shroom being at least 6-10 inches tall with 2 inch caps! Meaning that they are connected over the entire casing. Like the shrooms have grown their stems together, kinda cool looking actually.
I'm the type of person that loves new ideas, newfangled items, gadgets and things that change our futures from our past, but I am also the same type of person that doesn't bet on a losing horse but once,lol! I will ride out a winning hand until I see a better one! I know first hand what each will do. When it comes to peat moss verses coir, well let's just say my posts reflect the answer to that question,;)



My two pennies


Doc


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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: perosiste]
    #8237800 -

perosiste said:
BlutJager

I happened to have some of the moisture control miracle grow soil layign around, can you help me out with directions on what the proper mix would be.

xparts soil/xparts water.  Also do I need to mist that just like a regular casing.  Ah hell if you have a tek with this can you send it to me.


I don't have a tek to link you to but its so easy you don't even need one,Just jar it up,pasteurize it and apply straight out of the bag(Remove any big sticks and such of coarse)

I personally don't even hydrate before pasteurizing and prefer to have more control over the moisture content of it by just misting till optimal after it is applied,it is a hell of allot easier to put it on if it isn't wet and clumping together when you remove it from the jars you pasteurize it in:yesnod:

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: DragonChaser]
    #8238657 -

DragonChaser said:
buggas said:
Quote:
A lot of people are just sticklers for the "non-nutritive" part.


Does coir hold any less water than verm?


I didn't mean water, just nutrients. Non-nutritive referring to peat moss.
I was saying that people prefer peat over coir because it is non-nutritive while coir is rich in mush food, and the definition of a casing layer is a non-nutritive layer applied to retain moisture, among other things.

But no, coir holds a lot more water than verm.


For some reason, i don't get why i asked that. I think it was a quick thought after i had written and deleted a longer question/comment. And i think somewhere in there i thought you were referring to verm. Sorry 'bout that.

-------

For Doc...

Quote:
When it concerns coir vs peat. I have grown with peat and coir and I know for a fact(from first hand experience) that you can't get any more fruits from using either of the two-they both perform very well, except for the preparation part of each.


I agree, but only when you are discussing coir/peat as a casing layer. Not as a substrate, which coir is also well suited for.

Quote:
Your flushes depend solely on the surface area, substrate, parameters(optimum), and water. Not your casing material (non-nutritive layer), This is where coir comes in, as the hands on favorite, due to its ease of preparation-adding nothing but water. But, peat is a little different as you must adjust the ph to make it suitable in mushroom cultivation, you can't use it straight out of the package like you can with coir- being the easiest for noobs to prepare. With coir, there is no adjusting anything, add water and wah-lah!


Again, I agree with all of this. This ease of preparation also lends to coir as an easy bulk as well. At least only in the difference between locating and loading hpoo and any issues a grower or a growers roomates feel about poo everywhere vs. driving to the pet store for some coir bricks.

Quote:
Now people are trying to tell new members that coir is best suited as a substrate than a casing material and that is pure-Bull.


There are lots of teks out there showing the results of using coir as a substrate and casing and they are phenomenal. It has been said here by experienced growers (or who i believe to be experienced growers) that coir is second to hpoo. That would lead anyone to believe that it's legitimacy as a substrate is real.

I think that the message gets messed up when people start to see things in black and white. I've seen a lot of people get defensive and send out the impression that they're thinking: "If you say it's a good substrate, you must mean it's a bad casing layer", when that isn't the case.

It's not that it's better, I don't think it is either. But i do think that it can be used for more than only one thing in mycology. And, the fact that you say:

Quote:
I can't get any more mushrooms from using anything but coir and that depends only on how much water I can get into my substrate and casing material to support such a huge flush.


just adds evidence that it's not any WORSE, which is the point that i'm trying to make. It isn't any worse, and for growers like me (city noob), getting it is pretty cheap and easy compared to some of the other ingredients you would need in a bulk, or preparation of a casing.

For me, it comes down to that it just doesn't make any sense to use coir to case when you've used coir as substrate. It's like making a rabbit cage out of rabbit food. This is where peat comes in and does well, or even verm for that matter. Anyone can do either, hell, RR used money and a bra. It really doesn't matter, it's just that i think for a long time, lots and lots of people were saying that coir was ONLY suited as a casing layer.

As it turns out, it's more than that.

Quote:
I have and can still get flushes that are so thick that I have to damage each mushrooms stem, half way up to the cap and each shroom being at least 6-10 inches tall with 2 inch caps! Meaning that they are connected over the entire casing. Like the shrooms have grown their stems together, kinda cool looking actually.


That does sound cool! I wish i could see that! Good job Doctor White Thumb!! Any pics for pleasure?


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: doc34]
    #8238867 -

doc34 said:
When it concerns coir vs peat. I have grown with peat and coir and I know for a fact(from first hand experience) that you can't get any more fruits from using either of the two-they both perform very well, except for the preparation part of each. Your flushes depend solely on the surface area, substrate, parameters(optimum), and water. Not your casing material(non-nutritive layer), This is where coir comes in, as the hands on favorite, due to its ease of preparation-adding nothing but water. But, peat is a little different as you must adjust the ph to make it suitable in mushroom cultivation, you can't use it straight out of the package like you can with coir- being the easiest for noobs to prepare. With coir, there is no adjusting anything, add water and wah-lah! Now people are trying to tell new members that coir is best suited as a substrate than a casing material and that is pure-Bull. I can't get any more mushrooms from using anything but coir and that depends only on how much water I can get into my substrate and casing material to support such a huge flush. I have and can still get flushes that are so thick that I have to damage each mushrooms stem, half way up to the cap and each shroom being at least 6-10 inches tall with 2 inch caps! Meaning that they are connected over the entire casing. Like the shrooms have grown their stems together, kinda cool looking actually.
I'm the type of person that loves new ideas, newfangled items, gadgets and things that change our futures from our past, but I am also the same type of person that doesn't bet on a losing horse but once,lol! I will ride out a winning hand until I see a better one! I know first hand what each will do. When it comes to peat moss verses coir, well let's just say my posts reflect the answer to that question,;)



My two pennies


Doc



i have to say... that i always enjoy reading your post:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:
people can argue all day about something but first hand experience always tells the truth

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #8265502 -

I've been ignoring this for a while because preschooler's post kinda ticked me off. It shows that either 1) he/she is ignorant about the subject, 2) has shit on the nose (we are all guilty of it!) or 3) did not read the actual posts and is just saying shit to say it.

I'm not arguing with either doc or preschooler. I am telling both of you that coir colonizes. Whether you like it or not, it does. I have made casings using coir, they colonized... fast! By that very fact, coir is better suited as a substrate than a casing. This is still first hand experience regardless of fruit size or flush count. Those outcomes are neither here nor there.

A casing by definition is non-nutritious and is only there to provide moisture retention to the substrate. How can you consider something as nutrition packed as coir a true casing? Now that really is "pure-Bull"! I'm sure if i sprinkled some hpoo as a casing layer it would retain moisture just as well as peat or coir or verm for that matter. But i can guarantee that it'll colonize just like coir does.

Still don't believe, use the search button. Coir acts more like a substrate than a casing, but can be used as both, guaranteed.

There is no argument. There is only fact.


--------------------
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people.

Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others

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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: buggas]
    #8322131 -

Quote:
But every one saying that coco coir is bad for a casing.
So i decided Im going to use peat moss.



Quote:
Coir is very nutritious and is however actually my favorite bulk sub due to its ease of use


Quote:
I recently joined the "use peat for casing, use coir for substrates" wagon.


Quote:
I was saying that people prefer peat over coir because it is non-nutritive while coir is rich in mush food, and the definition of a casing layer is a non-nutritive layer applied to retain moisture, among other things.



It is posts like those above that mislead people when it concerns coir and peat. The "Law" of casing layers is that it must be a non-nutritive(containing no nutrients) material. Then people tend to lean towards peat for that reason.
No one said that coir doesn't colonize. We all know that it does. The arguement is which is better, coir or peat.
Now, coir does contain some minute nutrients(high in sodium and potassium but very low in nitrogen).
Let me ask this---what is peat? Where does it come from? Peat is the result of decomposing organic matter such as grass, twigs, sticks, leaves, moss, trees, bushes, weeds and everything else that grows in or around these 'bogs' where it is harvested. Now, I'm no rocket scientist by far, but I know common sense. If these things are degrading and decomposing to create peat there has to be some nutrients in it.

Taken from Wikipedia VVVV
"Peat forms when plant material, usually in marshy areas, is inhibited from decaying fully by acidic and anaerobic conditions. It is composed mainly of marshland vegetation: trees, grasses, fungi, as well as other types of organic remains, such as insects, and animal corpses. Under certain conditions, the decomposition of the latter (in the absence of oxygen) is inhibited, and archaeologists often take advantage of this.

Let me ask this "What happens to the nutrients in those materials when they come together to form peat? Do they just disappear? No!! They stay right there and form peat with all those nutrients in it!    Non-nutritive peat?

No nutrients in it? Come on people. Not even trace elements and minerials? Yeah, the acidic ph levels make peat unsuitable for use as a casing layer untill adjusted, but those organic materials that make up peat still remains the same-full of nutrients. Does those nutrients just disappear at the point when peat is formed? No!  Where do those nutrients go?
I have searched and searched---hell,  I even sent email after email to the manufacturers of peat and coir to have them send me a complete analysis of any and all trace elements and minerials that are in coir and peat, but no one has contacted me yet. Maybe I am missing something here, I don't know.  All organic materials have nutrients in it to some extent! Unless my school teachers were wrong in what they taught their students. Although, I did graduate from "Bug-Tussle High School" located in "Buck-Snort Tennessee"! With a PHD degree(Post-Hole-Digger)!;)

I use coir as my only casing material, (my pics show the results), whether it contains nutrients or not, the crap is amazingly simple to use and the results are spectacular!
I have seen the same results(or close to it)by other members who use peat as a casing material.

This is a matter of preference I assume. What ever works for you=use it!

Coir is a spectacular casing material and bulk substrate. I find it better suited as a casing than a sub though. If it works for you as a substrate = use it! If it works for you as a casing material = use it! If it doesn't then try peat or vice-verse!


My two cents again = (if I keep on with my two pennies I'm going to go broke soon;))


Have fun and enjoy this hobby



Doc


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Re: Peat moss or coco coir. [Re: doc34]
    #8322147 -

If peat contained fungi nutrients it would work as a bulk substrate. I haven't heard of anyone doing that, so I'm guessing that the nutrients in peat (which you quite rightfully pointed out must be present) are simply not the right nutrients for mushrooms.
This is just off the top of my head without doing any research.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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