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OfflineBlue Helix
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50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss * 2
    #2480695 - 03/30/04 01:36 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

WHAT IS THIS STUDY ABOUT?
After much searching without finding anything but hearsay, I decided that I would have to test out coco-coir-based (coir) versus peat-moss-based (peat) casing in an experiment of my own to determine the real differences and possible benefits of these casing materials. I have tried to eliminate variables besides the actual casing components in the experiment by applying and colonizing the two casings identically.

BED/CASING COLONIZATION
The cropping surface of this tray is approximately 36.5" x 14" (~3.5 sq.ft). The substrate consists of pasteurized, aged horse manure spawned with 27 half pints of birdseed/vermiculite. The bed is approximately 3" deep with 1" casing. Colonization of the bed took six days in a room of about 75F. During that time the bed's core temperature was monitored and maintained at 84-88F by way of a PC cooling fan blowing across the bottom of the cropping container (as excessive heat from colonization was an issue). A 1" casing was applied and colonized in 5 days, again using the bed's own heat to keep the core temperature up (during the last two days, wrapped the bed in insulating reflective bubble stuff to keep the bed's core from falling below 84F). One day prior to full casing colonization, a minor top scratch was used to even mycelium break through. The next day, when the casing was initiated, mycelium break through was about 30%.

CASING MATERIALS
The casing is roughly split equally between a pH-balanced vermiculite/peat and vermiculite/coir mixture. Both casings were sterilized using a pressure cooker. Pure calcium carbonate flour (as used in wine making) was used to balance the peat and coir (the coir didn't require much). Crushed, coarse coral aragonite sand was used in place of oyster shell for long-term buffering and to improve the casing consistency. There is a middle casing zone which unintentionally has some degree of peat-coir mixing, mostly from the scratching process.


CASING DIFFERENCES OBSERVED
The coir and peat moss casings have vastly different textures. The coir-based casing was much lighter and less prone to over saturation. The coir was easier to spread and deal with than the peat. The peat casing was heavier and more soil-like. Now let's talk about colonization.

As the cropping container is not completely opaque, I could well observe colonization. Colonization through the peat moss casing was very slightly slower than the coir (maybe 20% slower). The peat moss colonization had slightly fewer capillaries and showed slightly more dense growth (although this could have been from moisture differences).

Today is day three since initiation. Here are some pictures of the tray today demonstrating the differences so far:




As seen above the peat moss shows far less mycellium on the surface yet has plenty of evidence of mycellium running just under the surface evenly as desired. The coir, on the other hand, shows some degree of what appears to be overlay. Furthermore, I don't think the overlay is due to anything I've done wrong; rather it seems that the coir itself is slightly nutritive and, thus, being colonized to some degree as a substrate. As to the effect on yield, I can only speculate at this point. I am betting the peat supports fewer but larger mushrooms while the coir supports smaller, more numerous fruits. Total yield, though, will be very interesting. I'll update this thread when cropping time comes.


Edited by Blue Helix (03/30/04 04:34 AM)


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix] * 2
    #2480850 - 03/30/04 02:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

One more observation point: although I said in my post "overlay" I am not certain this is an accurate term for it. Observing under the casing through the cropping container, what seems to be happening is that the underground coir mycellium fans, which originate from the substrate itself, are simply breaking across the surface. Each capilary forms a tiny mycellium spike on the surface, so while there are vertical mycellium spikes across the surface, there is little horizontal component to the run (i.e. the mycellium isn't running across the surface). The same can be seen in the peat moss casing except the mycellium fans consist of fewer capilaries, which translates to less white on the surface. Again, the total yield will be very interesting.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix] * 1
    #2482396 - 03/30/04 08:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I am anxious to see the fruiting results. As the casing is in one container I think it will be hard to see which layer would have supported an earlier fruiting. As the coir casing half colonized quicker, I would think that it would also fruit sooner.

I can forsee a few differences, both good and bad, to each type of mix.

Joshua


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Joshua]
    #2482514 - 03/30/04 09:48 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

In my experience, casing colonization doesn't have too much to do with the timing of fruiting. Every tray I've done has been ready to pull shrooms on day 9, 10, or 11 after the tray is initiated for pinning (lower CO2 and temperatures). And I've seen the pins come from as deep down as the substrate when the casing failed to properly colonize (which sucked)!

So, my job is to slow down the mycellium a little so it doesn't overtake the top layer by day 6 or 7 (when I typically see the first pins). For this tray, I've turned off the ultrasonic mist cycles to try to reduce the growth a little. I am still using the cool mist, but just not the ultrasonic misting for a day or two.

So far my hunch is that the peat moss casing is going to produce more fruit because it isn't being so consumed by the mycellium like the coir seems to be. It could well be that the coir would be best if mixed with some peat moss to slow it down, but that would be another experiment all together. The whole point of this experiment is to see if I can get coir to work well in optimal-yield tray. There are lots of pictures around here showing coir works for moderate to medium flushes, but how about an optimal flush? In case anyone doesn't know: from a tray this size (3.5 sq.ft.), one should be able to get, even without a high-yield clone, about 3/4ths to a full pound dry over four or five flushes. I know that is possible with peat casing and super spawned horse manure (Paul Stamets says in TMC that even more can be expected with a deeper tray), but I want to try coir because of how it doesn't get too wet so easily, cleans off the fruits easier, and is easier to lay out. But if overlay is a problem, I won't use it again.


Edited by Blue Helix (03/30/04 09:59 AM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2482656 - 03/30/04 11:10 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Has anyone given thought to that P. Cubensis may be consuming the Coir? It can be fruited on paper, wood, and other cellulose rich components. I have even fruited it from rich topsoil... Could it also be that when you buffer the PH, the lime has most effect on the surface, but the internal PH stays high? Thus, the mycelium grows across the surface instead of agressively attacking it...

Edit: When I say buffer the PH, I mean buffer the peat.


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Edited by ATWAR (03/31/04 12:27 AM)


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: ATWAR]
    #2483203 - 03/30/04 06:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

My observation is that the mycellium is eatting the coir but non-aggressively, which is a good thing. Probably the only thing that is saving me is that there is 50% vermiculite and plenty of crushed coral in there. A casing that is too nutritive will be consumed and act more like a substrate, which is a bad thing since it negates the whole purpose of a casing. This morning the top structure of the coir remains pretty well open and less so than the peat (as in the picture). Since I've cut back mistings and brought the core temperature down even more, I think I will be able to hold off overlay until the pinning starts (which pretty much halts all mycellium growth). I expect pins in three or four more days if things go as they usually do.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2483470 - 03/30/04 09:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The whole point of this experiment is to see if I can get coir to work well in optimal-yield tray. There are lots of pictures around here showing coir works for moderate to medium flushes, but how about an optimal flush? In case anyone doesn't know: from a tray this size (3.5 sq.ft.), one should be able to get, even without a high-yield clone, about 3/4ths to a full pound dry over four or five flushes.



I've regularly seen coir based casings yield 4 dry ounces per square foot. In fact, I wouldn't even consider that a very high yield. There is no doubt that coir casings can support the yields you are talking about here. In fact, I've seen double those yields, both from coir and peat based casings.

Your experiment may be interesting to do a side by side comparison of the two, but if the question is "can coir support optimal flushes", that has already been answered many times.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: mycofile]
    #2483801 - 03/30/04 10:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

mycofile, that's encouraging news! I was looking back through your posts, and damn are they interesting! You gave me more than a couple ideas...


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2486037 - 03/31/04 09:46 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Update: The coir side has colonized a little more but is no more heavily overlaid than before. To my surprise, the peat-based casing shows pins starting this evening, forming earlier than I normally see them. I found no pins on the coir side although the initials could be better hidden by the white mycelium rhizomorphs. I guess we'll know for sure in the next 24 hours if pins are forming on the coir side too.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2486269 - 03/31/04 12:06 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

At what level exactly did you adjust the PH with what ?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: ragadinks]
    #2486304 - 03/31/04 12:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

hydrated lime and crushed oyster shells to the 50/50+ tech recipe id imagine


Edited by fresh313 (03/31/04 12:45 PM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2486448 - 03/31/04 03:53 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

i only use straight coir for casing now,i belive it holds moisture better than a 50/50 verm mix due to the fact that it shrinks less during a flush.
straight coir is the way to go.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Hanky]
    #2486628 - 03/31/04 06:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The pH of the coir-vermiculite (around 1:1) casing wasn't really adjusted. I didn't measure the pH per se but added two or three tablespoons of calcium carbonate flour (NOT hydrated lime) per 4 cups of coir which should have had very little pH impact on the mix.

What I see happening is exactly why Paul Stamets has not included coir as a casing alternative; namely, the mycellium is colonizing the coir as a substrate because it is a nutritive casing ingredient unlike peat. Of course, coir CAN work because there are many pictures of it working really well. I think maybe if I had initiated fruiting sooner or maybe if the coir had not been adjusted to the proper pH range, the colonization of the coir would have been minimized like it is in the peat moss.

Today the peat moss shows many pins. The coir shows none. Keep in mind these casings are side-by-side in the saming fruiting chamber. Needless to say, I am not impressed so far with the coir casing's performance. Maybe the coir casing is just a late bloomer or maybe it's overlaid for some reason, but I'm leaving the surface alone--no scratching--to see what happens.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2487141 - 03/31/04 10:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Well, I changed my mind. I went ahead and scratched the coco coir casing. Much to my surprise, the coir was colonized as hard as any substrate cake I've seen! It is definitely not acting like a casing at all. In fact I wonder if I might be able to use coir as a replacement for straw! I am not sure what's going on here, but I'm using a brand (forgot the name) of low sodium coco coir that I've seen pictured around here before.

Well, the yield is probably not going to be all that great for the coir side (probably average), but I'll update when I get the numbers. Maybe next time I'll try coir again but initiate fruiting very early. The reason I want coir to work in the first place is I believe it'll be easier to maintain in the long haul (less shrinkage) and easier to clean off the mushrooms. I also think I could get away with minimal pasterization if I use coir whereas peat definitely needs strong pasterization or even sterilization.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2487836 - 04/01/04 02:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
Well, I changed my mind. I went ahead and scratched the coco coir casing. Much to my surprise, the coir was colonized as hard as any substrate cake I've seen!




This has been my impression of coir all along. It does get colonized heavily and consumed to a certain extent. I have noticed this, and still use it with a heavy mix of vermiculite and oyster shells. I like coir because it does not "mat down" like peat, and there is no need to adjust PH levels.

I also find it best to place it in the fruiting chamber when mycelium just begins poking through (just barely visible, when it has just begun colonizing through). It will still continue to grow while in the fruiter, but colonization can be minimized this way, along with patch casing. Coir is very hard, if not impossible to water when colonized. It is imperitive that you put it in the chamber early, and patch as necessary to keep exposed coir available to accept water.

Now that you scratched the coir layer, your experiment is no longer equal. You should have left it alone to do a comparison on pinset and flush. A better experiment would be two seperate casings that can be placed in the fruiting chamber at optimal times.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: ATWAR]
    #2487907 - 04/01/04 02:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think the experiment was fundamentally flawed from the beginning. The coir casing cannot be run side-by-side with the peat moss casing because the two casings do not colonize at the same speed (the coir is definitely much faster and easily overlays). The peat moss casing is now showing perfect colonization and pinset while the coir was starting to be overlaid and not receptive to mistings until I scratched it. So even if I had not scratched the coir, the experiment would have been flawed from coir casing's overlay problem, and since I did scratch, I'll get more mushrooms (probably) but the experiment is still flawed because the two casing were not optimally incubated. It was a catch 22. And you are right, I really need to do two trays, incubating each just right, and compare their fruiting.

Even though the coir is gave me trouble, I still have some intuitive notion that if done right, it'll be better than the peat moss because of all the reasons already mentioned. In my next tray, I'll try coir alone and know better what to do, so the experiment is not a total waste at least.

I'll still give yield figures once everything is done. I'm betting the coir doesn't do too bad but will be several days behind the peat now. Now if the coir still produces a higher yield than the peat, it'll be a real miracle!


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix] * 1
    #2489180 - 04/01/04 08:50 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think coir will suffer on the later flushes. I bet its equal in the beginning but watering could be difficult with the thick colonization. It will be an interesting experiment, be sure to track more than the first flush. I usually fruit it earlier than peat, works for me. As long as you have bits of the surface area clear of mycelium, you can water and it will soak into the rest. I think water content, and ability to re-hydrate the casing will have the biggest impact on yield differences. Scratching will also have a small to major impact on fruiting and is really unnecessary. Cubensis will form pins through the overlay. When you scratch you are cutting off the flow of nutrients to the surface and destroying hyphal aggregates or future pin sites. When you do this it takes the mycelial network time and energy to recover, thus affecting yield.

This casing exhibited some of the worst overlay I have ever experienced. It was layer upon layer...


It fruited fine eventually with a patch case dusting...


Good luck with your experiment!


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: ATWAR]
    #2501227 - 04/01/04 05:43 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the info on patching! Next time I'll just do that without the scratch. I was wondering do you patch with 50/50 verm./coir or straight coir?

When I lightly scratched the top 1/8th inch yesterday (not a deep scratch) I also mixed the top with a tiny bit of sterilized coir about an 1/8th inch thick. The reason I did the patch too was because the coir right under the surface was fully colonized and scratching alone wasn't going to really help anything in terms of opening it up. With what I know now, I should have only patched (live and learn).

By the way, I think the root of what went wrong was the time right after the initiation itself. The coir was less forgiving of the 48 hours after initiation when the substrate the temperatures stayed around 80F while the room was about 76F. That time promoted more rapid vegetive growth which I didn't want. The reason I didn't drop the temperature more was because I was gone that time and the room stayed warmer than I expected. If I had dropped the temperature a little more faster, the overlay probably wouldn't have happened.

By the way, the middle-of-the-substrate probe has really helped me with this run. I never had one in there before, and it opened my eyes. During the colonization run of the horse manure, I really saw how much a bed heats up. In the past, I'd been running the room WAY too hot for horse manure (which probably has led to some failures before and cores of around 93F). Now I know that running horse manure is more a matter of keeping the bed cool, not incubating it like you do jars. A bed of horse manure creates more than enough heat to incubate itself.


Edited by Blue Helix (04/01/04 05:51 PM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2506252 - 04/02/04 01:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Personally, I patched with the same casing mix, not straight coir because I've always found that coir (especially coir on the surface) dries out so quickly. While on the subject, I'll elaborate on my method of handling a casing, particularly a coir/verm one.

#1 Pay impecable attention to getting the casing depth even and level
#2 Thorough mixing and wetting of the casing mix before application makes the casing uniform in composition and moisture content.
1 & 2 help ensure as even a casing run as possible
#3 The first growth to be seen is usually a few dime or quarter sized patches on the surface. Immediatly patch these spots with a very thin layer of fresh casing, roughly double the area of each spot.
#4 Initiate pinning imediately

For me, this casing mix and strategy yielded the best results. Since the coir/verm mix is ready for initiation the second the mycelium reaches the surface, it is usually a day or two ahead of a peat casing which usually needs to wait for mycelia to be in 20-50% of the "valleys".

Good observation on those bed temps! Personally, I think this scenario applies to all bulk substrates be it staight straw, manure compost whatever. I've also noticed that higher spawn rates yield higher bed temps, which may be why I noticed so much thermogensis on all bulk substrates (why bother with low spawn rates?). I don't think I ever once incubated a bulk substrate at higher than room temps other than a few early experiments, most of which ended in bacterial contamination which is a common symptom of high temperature damage.

Good luck with your future experiments.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2520099 - 04/03/04 05:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

UPDATE

The patched coir casing is pinning well (and the peat-based side is almost ready to harvest), yet the meclium is starting to colonize through even the coir patching material very fast. Within a week, it'll be totally overlaid again and require a repatch. And in the mixed area of the peat moss and coir, I see overlay too! Before anyone says this "isn't overlay because it's not matted with dead mycellium" let me clairfy that mycellium should not, ideally, be running heavily on the surface of the casing PERIOD, dead or alive. Mycellium should not colonize the casing as a substrate since that's the definition of a casing, a material that is not consumed yet supports the substrate under as a water reservoir. This is why books like The Mushroom Cultivator have pictures showing casings without any mycellium running on the surface except if demonstrating what overlay looks like.

So in conclusion, the cori-vermiculite casing does not show, at least for me, the type of performance required for a true casing. If coir going to work well in my setup, it must be re-patched--and I mean the whole tray, not just the mushroom picking holes--each and every flush. Maybe coir works better in other less humid setups or maybe it'd be a good addition to peat moss in very low ratios, but for my situation, I give coir a thumbs down. I don't want to be worried about patching constantly since it'd end up more trouble than it would be worth. I may experiment with coir as an amendment to a peat-moss-based casing, but I think that's it. Coir also might be a good choice for other edible mushrooms, and I'd be very interested in trying that.

By the way, when I started this experiment, I really wanted coir to work well because it's much cleaner, easier to level out, is not as prone to oversaturation, is reportedly less prone to green mold, etc., but I cannot deny that in this experiment the coir-vermiculite casing has twice colonized like a substrate, not a traditional casing. Judging from the results of this experiment, a vermiculite/coir casing is not well suited for cubensis except if regularly patched.

Below are some pictures showing the peat and coir-based casings today:

Peat-based casing pinning


Surface of Peat - notice that the mycelium does not consume the surface around the pins


Surface of coir-based casing 48 hours after having been patched with an 1/8th inch of pure coir - notice that the patch coir is already being consumed by the mycellium, which will soon render the casing fully colonized (overlaid) again in a week or so.


Edited by Blue Helix (04/03/04 09:04 AM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2520511 - 04/03/04 09:16 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent work!!

I will have to reconsider other types of casing mixes.

Thank you.

Joshua


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2520773 - 04/03/04 01:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2521776 - 04/03/04 11:39 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I've been following this thread with great interest. For quite some time now, I've been including coir in my substrate mixes. I believe it's better suited as a substrate than as a casing material. Most importantly however, the problem is the cost. Compared to manure, compost, straw, etc., coir is very expensive. Coir is not suited to be a casing material unless mixed(diluted) with verm, as was done in Blue's experiments. In my opinion as well, peat is a better casing material, and it's what I've switched back to. Another point is not to sterilize peat or coir in a pressure cooker. Part of what helps initiate pinning is bacteria in the casing layer. If you sterilize it, you lose this feature. Best to pasteurize only. One more point. My research has shown that it is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive to 'incubate' the casing layer. If you case when the substrate is 90% or so covered with mycelium, the myc is growing rapidly and will infiltrate the casing even if you expose to fruiting conditions immediately after applying the casing layer. I've found that if I apply casing, then leave uncovered and exposed to light(which I do from day one, by the way) overlay is never a problem, but the myc colonizes enough of the lower casing to be able to transfer moisture into the substrate. This also leaves a bit of uncolonized casing material to provide all those little 'humid micro-environments' to stimulate pinning. I actually get pissed off when the myc pokes through the casing, even a little bit.
Very nice experiments. Thanks for sharing.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #2521838 - 04/04/04 12:02 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

RogerRabbit, I agree with most of your observations, but I have to differ in incubation of casing. I observed that incubation of small grain trays, say less than 1 cubic foot of surface area and a couple inches deep, is a very good thing. If one doesn't incubate those small trays, they can take too long to colonize and will not colonize as evenly or completely. However, I found that incubation of bulk substrate trays, like this one, is absolutely not required in that additional heat does not need to be provided. Additional heat will probably raise the core temperature to undesirable levels. I actually had to fan the underside of this tray to keep it from getting to hot during the substrate run and even the casing run! In any case, though, I don't agree one should introduce the tray to fruiting conditions until the casing is colonized at least half way, active or passive incubation heat.

As far as casing being sterilized or pasteurized, I don't think it makes much difference. All the bacteria killed are, in my opinion, quickly replenished by small amounts on the substrate itself. I've done both sterilization and pasteurization, and I didn't notice any difference in yield or pin set. The only time I had a problem is when I didn't do either; I got green mold in that tray after the first flush, starting from a small piece of wood in the peat moss.

By the way, I have pictures of the peat side fruiting like crazy taken today, but I'll have to wait until this evening to post them because I've maxed out my daily upload limit.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2522405 - 04/04/04 03:39 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed. I never case straight grain, as it's a waste of good grain. I always do as you did, spawning into a bulk substrate. My pinsets have been better after pasteurization, as opposed to sterilized casing material. Just an observation. It's good to see folks experimenting. So many seem to think the first thing they try is the 'only' way to do things. Keep up the good work!

Oh, it just occured to me that I might have made it seem that I don't incubate bulk substrate trays. I do. What I was saying above is that I don't incubate 'again' after the casing layer goes on. I prefer the casing to not colonize completely.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #2522616 - 04/04/04 04:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

When you say incubate, RogerRabbit, do you add heat to those trays? I found with this last 3.5 sq.ft. tray that the substrate generated too much heat during incubation even in a room that was generally about 74F, so I used a temperature-controlled PC fan at the bottom of the tray keyed off a temperature probe inserted into the bed core core to keep the core from overheating. Before I started using the fan, the core temperature was soaring to the low 90s in a room that was 20F cooler!


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2523125 - 04/04/04 07:17 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Here are those pictures of the tray fruiting. This is the peat-vermiculite casing side. The casing is the basic 50/50 formula with crushed coral rather than oyster shell, calcium carbonate flour (as used in wine making), peat moss, and vermiculite. It was sterilized but pasteurization seems to work just as well if not better.



Edited by Blue Helix (04/04/04 07:18 AM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2523281 - 04/04/04 08:20 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Awesome flush..geezus!
Was the peat/verm side better than the coir/verm?

When I 'incubate' it's at room temperature. The myc, as you discovered, makes its own heat.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #2523311 - 04/04/04 08:38 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

This is my first and last try using coir. I don't like the way it colonizes like a substrate and overlays in the fruiting chamber. I lightly scratched and patched the coir side, but it is already starting to overlay again. I do have pins now, but the set isn't great. It looks like it will overlay by the next flush, so I just might let it do that and fruit it like a big substrate block. I will not use coir again for casing cubes.

This tray is a pretty typical heavy flush when things go right. Heavy first flushes are to be expected when the casing colonizes under the surface evenly before the fruiting conditions are introduced. I like to give the casing a light scratch toward the end of the casing colonization period then allow 24 to 48 more hours before initiating fruiting. That little mixup of casing mycellium at the very end helps even the flush out and gives me a better pin set--that's my only "secret" but it's really just a recommendation from Stamets in TMC.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #2530072 - 04/06/04 09:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

UPDATE

The coir side did suffer from the scratching. I would say it produced about 1/2 or less of the mushrooms of the peat moss side (not a bad flush, just not that good). However, after the first flush, the mycellium finally stopped colonizing the coir patching. I guess the whole bed finally got the message "It's time to fruit, so stop wasting energy on vegative growth." I suppose if one can make it to the first flush using a coir-based casing without it overlaying, you'll be good to go for the rest of the fruiting.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4000117 - 04/01/05 09:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Wheres the coir side pics of it mature? :smile:

Interesting stuff. I've always had great success with coir..you just really need to know how to baby it, when to iniate and all that. But then again, you can also have better then great success. I have already picked up some peat moss (wasnt really around during the winter) and begun a few experiments with the casing. I like it...I also liked throwing in a bit of coir..about 15-20% give or take. I'd like to try a thin layer of just coir over the top of the substrate, say 1/4 inch or so, then peat/verm (1/2 inch or so) on top of that. I dont really know why...I just have the urge to try it.

Well anyway, informative as usual and all that :smile:


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4000236 - 04/01/05 09:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Hi, scatmanrav. I never got around to posting a picture of the coir side fruiting. It wasn't too bad, but it wasn't great either. The end yield was about 50% of the peat moss side. The tray eventually went green mold because this was back when I used to run 100% RH most of the time, and I got mold almost every time by the third flush.

My current tray setup, after the green bomb I created by mixing peat moss in uncolonized horse manure in that other thread, is going to be modeled after this tray. What I mean by that is that this tray happened to be incubated during a hot spell, which ensured the bed didn't get too cold during casing incubation. To get that same effect in the new tray I'm going to be running a tub-in-tub setup so I can zero in on the exact temperature I want during casing incubation. The reflective bubble wrap will be used over the outer tub too to ensure even heat. Hopefully that will fix my casing running problem. The other thing I will be doing differently in this new tray compared to the one in this thread is running at 95% RH rather than 100%.

I am also considering mixing in a bit of coir (about 15%) in the casing mix just for kicks. I figure at that level overlay shouldn't be a problem, but I might benefit from some of that great texture that coir has over peat. I don't know. I am on the fence over it, but I have a couple weeks to think about it.


Edited by Blue Helix (04/01/05 09:33 PM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4000984 - 04/01/05 11:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I gather from all this that, something on the order of a PH adjusted 45% verm, 45% peat & 10% coir (or - something close to that range) casing mixture might be ideal.

Adding a small amount of coir is somewhat like CAC'ing a peat casing, as is done in some commercial cultivation referanced below.

PENN STATE REFERANCE

CAC or CI
Fully colonized spawn run substrate is used to introduce mycelia into the casing layer. This is often used to improve crop uniformity, crop cycling, mushroom quality, and yields. Spawn run compost at casing (CAC) is used to inoculate the casing during the mixing or application of the casing.

CAC is now produced much like spawn?in aseptic conditions?by those who produce and supply spawn to growers. This process is called casing inoculum (CI).

By adding the mycelia uniformly throughout the casing, the spawn growth into the casing is quicker and more even. The time from casing to harvest is reduced by 5?7 days so that the rooms can be cycled faster or more breaks can be harvested in the same time.

Mycelial growth is uniform on the surface, which encourages the mushrooms to form on the surface as well. Therefore, they are cleaner. Yields are improved since the mushroom growth is uniform and crop management is easier. In addition, more mushrooms are produced from areas that may have less nutrition.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #4001592 - 04/02/05 01:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm a peat based man through and through and haven't read this thread yet for some reason? Anyway I'll read through it and see if it sways my thinking at all. I hope it will at least reinforce my love love for the peat microclimate which IME is superior. It looks like an excellent presentation from a quick skim over and should make for an interesting read! TY


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: hyphae]
    #4010390 - 04/04/05 06:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
I'm a peat based man through and through and haven't read this thread yet for some reason? Anyway I'll read through it and see if it sways my thinking at all. I hope it will at least reinforce my love love for the peat microclimate which IME is superior. It looks like an excellent presentation from a quick skim over and should make for an interesting read! TY




Hey thats what I was going to post! :tongue: :crazy2:

I worked with a 50/50 coir/verm mix for couple of years, then finally switched over to peat/verm/dash of lime, and I have to say the peat blows coir away as far as texture, and moisture retention (what I mean is, holds water for longer period of time, not holds more water).

Also something about the blackness of peat based casings with all those white threads shooting up is just beautiful.

Coir does work great for a casing mix, I never had a bad flush with it.
But I've had my best flushes with peat :thumbup:


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: MrMaddHatter]
    #4012703 - 04/04/05 10:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm a believer in the peat moss...got my first pins on peat moss casing..got lots of peat based and coir casings to see the difference. From now on..peat will be the basis of my casing mix..though there may be a bit of coir mixed in..


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4012942 - 04/04/05 11:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yup....with a touch of coir..... I agree.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #4012999 - 04/04/05 11:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

For all the freaky peats:


Aren't there different types of peat moss. The PH levels will be different depending on where you live. How can I find out what's the best PH level? What amount of water is used for the moss? Also what amount of time should I use in the mike for sterilization?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Juan_del_Pueblo]
    #4013077 - 04/05/05 12:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You need a pH test probe to deterine pH of any peat, as it comes from differing sources (worldwide), all with differing pH. ph probes can be had under $20 at garden supply stores.

The preferred pH range of a casing mixture is 6.5 to 8. 7.5 is optimal.

Hydrate mix to feild capacity (70/75%) before nuking.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Something I wrote in another life.

"pH", is a measure to describe the acidity of a medium.
pH 7 is neutral; higher means alkaline, lower acidic.

Peat is a major constituent of preferred casing mixes. The pH of peat is variable, dependent on the source it came from. Meaning, the pH of peat differs from various sources. The preferred pH range of a casing mixture is 6.5 to 8. 7.5 is optimal.

Peat is acidic. Consequently, to achieve an optimal pH range of a casing mix, the pH of the casing mixture must be adjusted accordingly (within the range of 6.5 to 8).

The pH of the casing must be within certain limits to support strong mycelial growth. An overly acidic or alkaline casing mixture will depress mycelial growth and supports unwanted competitors.

It is generally easier to make casing materials more alkaline (i.e., increasing the pH) than it is to make them more acid (i.e., reducing the pH).

A movement of 0.5 is easy but, because the pH scale is logarithmic, a movement on the order of, 2.0 points becomes more difficult because there is a factor of 10x between each full point, so pH 5.0 is actually 100 times more acid than pH 7.0.

There are several common types of lime available for use, though care should be exercised with all of the products. Lime is caustic and a skin and eye irritant and can be dangerous if misused. If you choose to use such products, carefully read and follow all manufacturer directions exactly. The major types of lime products include:

Hydrated Lime: fast acting, but not long lasting. It is very effective to produce a fast change in pH level. It is also the "strongest" form of lime generally available, and you must follow all manufacturer precautions, since your skin and eyes can be easily irritated or burned if the product is misused.

Ground Limestone: a naturally occurring type of limestone that has been ground to a fine powder. How quickly it will act to modify pH and how long it will persist depends on how finely it was ground.

Generally, ground limestone is weaker than hydrated lime, needing about 30% more to raise the pH by the same amount. It has the advantage, however, of usually being significantly cheaper than the hydrated lime, and usually works more slowly and lasts much longer.

Mixed Lime: usually sold under a brand name. Most brands contain a variety of particle sizes to provide some immediate benefits, as well as a longer persistence. (this is often referred to as "time released" lime).

pH gradually falls to less than optimal by the end of cropping due to acids secreted by the mushroom mycelium. Consequently, a long lasting buffering agent is preferable.

If you wish to achieve optimal results when adjusting pH, it is highly advisable to use litmus strips (with color chart), or acquire a pH test probe (available at most garden supply stores, under $20) to accurately test, and adjust the pH of your casing mix, prior to application.

Doing all other cultivation steps properly, then applying a casing mixture outside the proper pH range, most often creates poor cropping results.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #4016398 - 04/05/05 06:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Has anybody tried CAC'ing with cubies? My guess is it would lead to overlay, which happens far too often even without CAC.

I'm also a believer in peat/verm casings. I tried coir when everybody else was raving about it, but coir works far better in the substrate than in casings.
RR


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #4016408 - 04/05/05 06:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I did & you are correct.

Slight amount of coir in a verm/peat casing is like CAC'ing & works well, without overlay setting in.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #4018221 - 04/06/05 01:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Cool post. No matter what you do, keep it simple. Mushrooms grow in the swamp floor which is covered with moss, so it would make sense that they would grow better in moss, and not in whatever the fuck cococoir is. Shit i live in a swamp, i should just go out and gather some stuff off the floor of it and use that as a casing mixture.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Abermelin]
    #4024067 - 04/07/05 07:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What strain is that if you dont mind my asking?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #4030757 - 04/08/05 09:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Hydrate mix to field capacity (70/75%) before nuking."

70/75% is that the temp? How many min with mike? I do 5min with coir and put lime in after wards is Peat the same way or put lime in b4 mikey?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Juan_del_Pueblo]
    #5322016 - 02/21/06 06:59 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

If coco coir is kown to create overlay due to it acitng as a substrate to the mycelium then what about changing the ratio around from 60:40 verm coir to 80:20?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: ke1n]
    #5322578 - 02/21/06 08:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Read this POST.
It may give you some insight.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #5328333 - 02/23/06 12:02 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I'm curious, since coir has nutritive properties, has anyone tried using it as a substrate?
IE. An additive in a bulk substrate?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: DrAbominable]
    #5328491 - 02/23/06 01:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, it works as an additive. Especialy well, with weathered h/poo.

And/or, with straight rye, or wbs/grains & some Verm.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #5329075 - 02/23/06 04:22 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

But even though the coir has nutrients wouldn't Sterilizing the mix eliminate them?

Although, RR said "Another point is not to sterilize peat or coir in a pressure cooker. Part of what helps initiate pinning is bacteria in the casing layer. If you sterilize it, you lose this feature. Best to pasteurize only."

Although Ryche Hawk says "There has been a lot of discussion on whether it's better to sterilize the casing soil or not. In my friend's studies, he has found that sterilizing is better. Some people like to pasteurize it. That's OK, but he prefers to sterilize it."

I JUST finished sterilizing some 50/50+ in the pressure cooker for about 90 mins. Ive got substrate that needs to be cased tomorrow. Should I use this, or mix up another batch pasteurized and let my substrate go another day?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: rockytop83]
    #5329108 - 02/23/06 04:33 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Either way works. Try both & see what works better for you.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: rockytop83]
    #5329123 - 02/23/06 04:38 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rockytop83 said:
But even though the coir has nutrients wouldn't Sterilizing the mix eliminate them?




BlueHelix said "The casing is roughly split equally between a pH-balanced vermiculite/peat and vermiculite/coir mixture. Both casings were sterilized using a pressure cooker."


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: rockytop83]
    #5346380 - 02/28/06 02:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

can u use a ph down/up solution thats normally used for hydro systems with the green. I dunno where anywhere around where i live seels crushed coral...?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: shroomr4life]
    #5347107 - 02/28/06 05:51 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Blue Helix and ATWAR,
That has been my experience with coir as well. Just don't attempt to share the results of your research on the 'other' board. You'll get slammed for spreading disinformation...lol http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=7336
RR


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Edited by RogerRabbit (02/28/06 06:04 AM)


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Offlinegourmetgrower
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5347959 - 02/28/06 09:56 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


shroom4life said:
can u use a ph down/up solution thats normally used for hydro systems with the green





For pH up, calcium carbonate is best, but I've used calcium hydroxide (hydrated lime) and also sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in solution.

For pH down, I use pure ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in solution.

Sometimes, pH down solutions contain nitrogen which can be bad for casings.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5348090 - 02/28/06 10:43 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Blue Helix and ATWAR,
That has been my experience with coir as well. Just don't attempt to share the results of your research on the 'other' board. You'll get slammed for spreading disinformation...lol http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=7336
RR





Wbs/grain spawn @ 25% rate to a coir substrate.
(no casing cover)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #5348329 - 02/28/06 02:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Nice pic agar. Personally, I rate coir somewhere between cow and horse manure as a substrate. When used as a casing material however, it just seems to colonize fully, which in my opinion is more like adding another half inch or so of substrate. It certainly doesn't hurt though, as the more varied the nutrient source, the better the results. I've seen some very nice flushes from trays with a top layer of coir.
RR


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5348433 - 02/28/06 04:19 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

My experience:
using 30% coir, 30% peat, 30% vermiculite and 10% Calcium carbonate as a casing mixture does a good job.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Anno]
    #5349690 - 02/28/06 11:25 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Good post in 29-30 days this post is two years old w00t.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5362009 - 03/04/06 12:34 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Blue Helix and ATWAR,
That has been my experience with coir as well. Just don't attempt to share the results of your research on the 'other' board. You'll get slammed for spreading disinformation...lol http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=7336
RR




you got 'slammed', as you put it,
for exaggerating, rodger.

you stated that
there was little difference
between using coir casing
or using no casing at all-
except casing with coir took two extra weeks and
made it harder to water,
in essence portraying a coir casing
as worse than nothing at all.


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Edited by Hippie3 (03/04/06 12:47 AM)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: onetime]
    #5362232 - 03/04/06 01:50 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Im sure its due to my own fault somehow, but never have i had a casing get contaminated before the first flush when using peat, when using coir, i never get a first flush before green kills it. Definitly a good water holder, i belive i still have some bricks layin around and maybe ill give a go at adding them to the substrate layer, but as for the casing, that shit isnt allowed near it.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: _Lucid_]
    #5379439 - 03/09/06 06:48 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think coco coir is worse than nothing at all. It does tend to overlay very easily, but nothing at all is like 100% overlay and I don't see that happen. After what I've seen, I would never use coco coir in total replacement of peat moss. I don't get what's the attraction to it really. It's more expensive than peat moss and doesn't work as well. I guess there is the environmental thing, but I am not convinced peat moss is really in short supply. The only thing I really liked about coco coir was the cool compressed blocks that are easier to store. I have to admit seeing that stuff fluff up five times is totally cool!


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: _Lucid_]
    #5386037 - 03/11/06 12:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

What makes MG bad for shrooms?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5387942 - 03/11/06 09:37 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I tend to like denser casing layers meaning peat moss based. Coir is so lofty the mycelium tends to run right through real fast. Im not keen on that.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5496410 - 04/09/06 09:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Nice experiemnt.

I use to use coir and always got overlay :evil:

I decided to try it in substrate this time...Due to how well it holds water and the possibility of it having nutes (lots of crossed-info. about it's nutritional value and such).

I was going to use it in a casing mix this time around but i've decided against...Considering that i've never used peat, I thought i'd give it a try. Just worried about getting the Ph correct.

:thumbup:

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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #5496871 - 04/10/06 12:00 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

wow , very good info here, all nooBs wanting to do casings should read this, wish i read it 2 weeks ago. Doh! peace<>


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #5496882 - 04/10/06 12:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If you cold shock the substrate by itself before adding a coir casing - it still likes to colonize it anyways?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Zacharian]
    #5498553 - 04/10/06 08:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Zacharian, I didn't try that. I just use peat-moss-based casing now, although I am trying a new Uni-gro cactus mix one that is mostly peat moss based that I'll have a report about soon.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5500053 - 04/10/06 11:25 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

50/50 peat moss FTW


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #7557768 - 10/25/07 10:26 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Just a bump to a very interesting thread.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Glacier Creek]
    #7558259 - 10/25/07 05:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

it's outdated at best, it's been proven time and time again coir sucks as a casing due to the fact that it contains nutrients and a casing is not meant to have any... It is decent as a substrate, performing especially well with additives, but is still no match for hpoo or compost.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #7561933 - 10/26/07 03:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

here's some pix posted by oatman here showing
just how much coir 'sucks'





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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Hippie3]
    #7563203 - 10/26/07 09:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

you clearly didn't read my post.... i said coir as a casing sucks....

coir as a substrate is what i use thanks to that very thread that those pictures came from...


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lyrics from: Transglobal Underground - Eyeway Souljah (from Psychic Karaoke)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #7565708 - 10/27/07 12:55 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

cubies don't need a casing anyway
so your point is moot,
even if it WERE true, which it isn't
quite.
PURE coir isn't the greatest casing material all by itself,
but mixing with vermiculite,
just like we mix peat,
renders any 'overlay' problems much more manageable.
besides as so many here are fond of saying,
bulk growing is where it's at,
and coir is a great bulk substrate material.
forget casings and cakes,
a big box of donkey doo & coir & some spawn
is all one needs.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Hippie3]
    #7566087 - 10/27/07 05:47 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

i disagree with you about coir/verm as a casing the point of a casing as you know is to add moisture and it should not have any nutes which coir has, while yes coir and verm both hold moisture well, the fact that coir has nutes make it inadequate for casing purposes.

this thread was a question of peat/verm vs coir/verm as a casing and you went off on a tangent about substrates... peat/verm is an excellent casing and comparitively, especially for noobs and first timers with no clue which is who this thread is really for, coir/verm sucks...

i do agree with your point that bulk is the way to go and a casing isn't neccasary which i think IS a point that has some room in the topic of talking about casing cubes. unfortunately not everyone can handle going bulk...


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #7568898 - 10/28/07 03:31 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

so what if coir doesn't quite meet the strict definition of casing [no nutes] ?
that doesn't prevent it from doing the job , delivering water.
so as long as one can avoid
the Casing Rules Enforcers
it's all good.
you can quibble about what to call it all you want,
frankly coir doesn't quite fit perfectly into any category.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Hippie3]
    #7569304 - 10/28/07 07:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

what thread did those pics come from???


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: KulTiVater]
    #7569426 - 10/28/07 08:05 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------


♫ ♪ In the garden of many fields, there is no me or you. There is no right or wrong. There is no up or down. There is no black or white. Everyone is the plow man. Everyone is the seed. Everyone harvests and everyone yields. In the garden of many fields, everyone is one with one love and one love is one with everyone. ♪ ♫
lyrics from: Transglobal Underground - Eyeway Souljah (from Psychic Karaoke)


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #7574525 - 10/30/07 06:09 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Now you see why I said bump to an interesting thread. I haven't seen much lately about coir being used as a bulk substrate. This gives me some new ideas. I use horse poo, as it is easy to come by for me, but I have to be honest in saying that I don't like it. I'm just sick of messing with the leeching, storing, hanging to drip, ect. I just want to use something clean like coir, with the required nutes for a even, abundant yeild. Sort of a hydroponic to soil comparison in the green growing world. Casing I agree totally with the 50/50+. I really don't see coir as being a must for any casing, but if it's what you use, to each his own. There will never be a "best" method, because we all have different enviroments around us that are adapted in different ways. The wonderful thing about the shroomery is that ideas are being shared, utilized, and adapted so that we may all find better ways to use the things we already have or have easy access to. I know that since my short time of reading through all of these wonderful ideas, I have changed quite a bit about my setup, and because of this, have seen wonderful results. I also have to say that I am also spending less money per harvest than I ever have before with better yields. So no matter who's right and who's wrong about anything here, it all helps. Thanks guys-n-gals.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Glacier Creek]
    #8705893 - 07/31/08 12:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

just wanted to bump this :-) very interesting. thanks bluehelix for trying this experiment and sharig with everyone. I enjoyed reading this thread!


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: tripchip]
    #8705950 - 07/31/08 12:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

ya free bump this is great thread, so I think peat/verm 50/50 is winning atm!!


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: agar]
    #11050521 - 09/13/09 03:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

just out of curiosity has anyone tried just coir with coffee? and when you mix in the mycelium, do you layer it. first your mycelium then the coir, or would that be more like using it as a casing layer? im so sorry if this comes through badly but im a newbie and im battling to understand all the lingo, or would you mix the mycelium with the coffee, and how relivant is growing on agar first to choose a single strain, apposed to just using a multispore? can anyone help with some knowlage?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #15063800 - 09/12/11 02:28 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I wanted to use peat moss to bulk some crushed BRF cakes. But got flamed in the text chat... I ended up going with 50/50 coir/verm mix.

Yes I know. Not a casing but is indeed a bulk. Just wanted to share the power of coir. Can't wait to try this experiment myself!

Here is the tray!


Didn't come out to bad. Just don't want people thinking coir is an inferior substrate. But thanks to this thread, definitely proven an inferior casing.

Good job mang! :thumbup:


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Blue Helix]
    #18968089 - 10/12/13 09:16 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Very thankful for reading this one.  Now I will not go looking for coir when I got peat. Thanx Again..
Deathcap


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: Dr.Deathcap]
    #18968102 - 10/12/13 09:20 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Peat is good for casing layers, coir is good for bulk substrates.

Simple.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: PussyFart]
    #18968407 - 10/12/13 10:54 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Dr.Deathcap said:
Very thankful for reading this one.  Now I will not go looking for coir when I got peat. Thanx Again..
Deathcap





Nice first post bumping a ten year old thread. ....


Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Peat is good for casing layers, coir is good for bulk substrates.

Simple.




Hey NaH, I don't know if you knew this but you can tell how old the thread is under the title of the post.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: tbagtag]
    #18968410 - 10/12/13 10:55 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

That was the first thing I looked at actually.

Still replied.

What does that tell ya?


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: PussyFart]
    #18968446 - 10/12/13 11:02 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
That was the first thing I looked at actually.

Still replied.

What does that tell ya?




That you like old things. Stay away from my granny NaH.


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: tbagtag]
    #18968500 - 10/12/13 11:15 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

:heytheresexy:


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss [Re: PussyFart]
    #22701530 - 12/26/15 09:59 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Peat is good for casing layers, coir is good for bulk substrates.

Simple.




I find the subject interesting and I am sorry to bring back this old thread.
Why is peat not as good for bulk substrates? What's the science behind this choice?

Merry


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss (my take + next batch) [Re: Gregol]
    #23893331 - 12/04/16 07:10 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Wow this is a good thread. Plz don't respond telling me it's 11 years old.  I'm bumping because this should be read by everyone on here. Been thinking a lot on these exact ideas and was going to do a similar experiment then find this in depth analysis of the exact ideas.

I'm birthing my next batch of grains to cvg and covering in a 1/4 inch layer of pure cvg. Will let colonize till 90% low fae high humidity and light 12/12.  Casing with 50/50+ peat verm 1/2-5/8 inch at 90% colonized substrate. After one day will increase fae, introduce fruiting conditions.  All this will be done in my Martha. Reason for 1/4 layer of cvg is to not have any exposed grains while colonizing the bulk cvg. At no point will I cover with tinfoil or anything just keep fae low in Martha. RR said something about that and I agree. I think casing late means by the time contams hit the casing layer will be further down the road of flushes. RR said something about the mycelium being very aggressive while colonizing the cvg so once casing is applied I feel fruiting the following day will be the best time. The bottom of casing while get colonized very quickly and having a juicy water reservoir for fruiting sounds ideal.  The cvg thickness will be about 4 1/2 inches before casing.

I will use spitballs cvg tek to prepare cvg. Casing will be 50/50 peat verm add at 10% of peat calcium carbonate, 10% gypsum 5% crushed oyster shell. Fruiting incubating and casing will all have the same temperature since the substrate temp soars during colonizing I've noticed.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss (my take + next batch) [Re: Chitihurrishrooms]
    #23893383 - 12/04/16 07:36 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

You still bumped an fuck old thread then jacked with your grow. Why couldnt you just start a thread instead of dragging old stuff up


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OfflineChitihurrishrooms
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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss (my take + next batch) [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23893455 - 12/04/16 08:10 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I think the answer to your question is in the first two sentences of my post


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss (my take + next batch) [Re: Chitihurrishrooms]
    #23893499 - 12/04/16 08:22 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

It is generally frowned upon to bump old threads regardless of the posters opinion on it, kind of a courtesy thing I guess.  You could have started your own thread and linked to the old info, your balls would be less busted.
I am pretty sure there is updated information on this type of fruiting tek all over the boards as I have read many posts about it in my lurking days.
Good luck with it.
Dick


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Re: 50/50 Coco Coir versus 50/50 Peat Moss (my take + next batch) [Re: Chitihurrishrooms] * 1
    #23893521 - 12/04/16 08:30 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

:racethread:

are you growing cubes?? they dont need a casing layer. skip the step if ya want.
i just mix up my bulk n grains and add a thin top layer and done. cvg only. just a mono tub. my last 2 tubs are fruiting at spawning.

try that instead. save time and effort.

4.5inch deep tray in a martha seems too deep. the few times i did a GH/marta
i used thinner trays and got decent results. whats your current grow like? pics?


^^^^^^^^
this is why you should of started your own thread. so we can discuss YOUR grow
and not confuse someone trying to read about coco vs peat ....from the bush era.


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