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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919239 -

BrAiN said:
Interesting eh? Must have been the democrats who did the color coding :wink:


:lol:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7919340 -

gluke bastid said:
:lol:

I like that numbers 4-6 of your 7 points basically could all be summed up by one point: people seeking health care.


Since you seem to have missed it, this wasn't a tirade against socialized medicine.  It was a reasoned treatise elucidating several reasons why health care costs are as high as they are. 

My tirades against socialized health care are nowhere near that lengthy.  Governments suck at running things and I don't give a fuck how much your medicine costs I don't feel like paying for it.  Pay your own way, slacker.

Points 4&5 are about patient abuse, and by that I mean dumb ass patients who think they are entitled to the best of everything compounded by their idiotic flooding of the services for nothing.  Selfish parasitic morons.  In my entire life I never saw a doctor for a cold or flu or small cut or bruise or sprain.  And yet douches flood doctors' offices for this crap.  The doctors then have to do comprehehnsive examinations for fear of malpractice claims (I call it sueage).  #6 has to do with the fact that all the easy stuff has been done for decades.  Everything new is EXPENSIVE.  There were no million dollar MRI machines when I grew up.  Now there are.  They are expensive but it is not necessary that every fucking facility have one.
Quote:
You think just like a health insurance company. Take the money from people, but don't provide any service so you can turn a profit.


I despise the health insurance companies.  They are hardly better than the government but at least you can sue them.  As I mentioned in 2, maybe 3, of the items I think they are driving up the cost with bureaucracy.  Their own bureaucracy and the doctors' bureaucracy.  7 refers to the divorce between the service providers and the service recipients.
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Zappa, I am not exaggerating when I say that every time you go on one of these anti-socialized medicine tirades, you prove to me more than Hillary and all the socialized western countries combined that for-profit health care is a broken system. That and the $1000 per month cost of insulin that I need to survive vs. the zero dollars per month that my cousins north of the border spend on insulin, blood sugar monitors and doctor's visits.


You are NOT why I write these things.  You are my opponent, not my target reader.  You are clearly invested in taking money from me so that you don't have to pay your own way.  I don't blame you for that but neither do I have any respect for thieves and beggars.  Your problems are your problems and my problems are my problems.  If you ask nicely I might be inclined to help.  But you don't.  You just want to send the gunsels to my door and appropriate my property for yourself.  And to that I say, fuck you.  With all due respect, as in none.
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And you're telling me I should be happy to work hard to hand over $15K/yer to pharmacuetical companies? Stay away from life coaching, bub.


Not telling you that at all.  Fucking do without.  I don't give a shit.  Life coaching?  I wouldn't think of it.  I have zero desire to tell you or anyone else here how to act.  What is wrong with you?


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7919344 -

gluke_bastid writes:

Quote:
understand that in theory you don't see any justification for paying for socialized medicine. In practice, however, it is better for all.


The irony meter is off the scale. Theory vs practice, you say? Your theory is that it is better for all. The actual practice of the two original socialized medicine countries -- the UK and Canada -- is disastrous.

As for your belief that your insulin and test strips and stuff would be free if you lived in Canada, I am almost certain you are mistaken. Prescription drugs aren't covered by Canada's health care system unless administered in a hospital. Insulin is a prescription drug.

See http://www.diabetes.ca/section_services/insurance.asp -- go to the link, click for the .pdf file "Answers to common questions about insurance and diabetes" -- it is found at the top of the page on the right -- then go to the second page of the .pdf and check "I am moving to Canada. What kind of diabetes coverage can I get?"



Phred


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7919350 -

SlashOZ said:
Why should i pay for a military to protect this country?


Somehow I suspect that you pay FUCKALL for anything in taxes. That's usually a characteristic of panhandlers.
Quote:


i would love nothing more than to see phred and zappa die in a terrorist attack. ever see that beheading video? yeah that way would do just nicely. seriously though if you think paying billions for military operations in other countries to protect the lives and well being of american citizens why is it such a hard leap for you guys to pay for health care to protect the lives and well being of american citizens?


You are almost a human being. But not quite.


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Cubie]
    #7919362 -

Cubie said:
Cubies take on health care.

Abolish war on drugs.

Use the money to provide free coast to coast healthcare...thankyou goodnight


Zappaisgod's take on the War on Drugs. Abolish it and give me my fucking money back. Also, for anybody to be eligible for gummint health care they must be within weight guidelines, test clean for all drugs, including nicotine and alcohol, and get at least 30 minutes of strenuous exercise everyday. And prove it. Enjoy.


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919428 -

Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?

Quote:
Capitalist for profit creates better service


I don't like knowing that if I were to develop cancer that I would be waiting in line for months to receive radiation treatment.

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7919464 -

For someone who posts on a drug related website, you sure have a lot of plans that involve making people not do drugs :wink:


I think zaapa is 5-0. Lets bust a cap. :smile:

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919495 -

he's the human antabus (rectal) :captain:

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: JRayV]
    #7919574 -

JRayV said:
Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?

I don't like knowing that if I were to develop cancer that I would be waiting in line for months to receive radiation treatment.


My father is a cancer patient and he did not have to "wait in line for months" to receive treatment. He is a rather critical person, but has had very few complaints about his experiences with the health care system here. I suspect your exaggerated impression of universal health care comes directly from the media or from hearsay, rather than actual experience with the Canadian health care system. I've never seen any hard numbers indicating exactly how many Canadians really do seek treatment in the US; please point me to a scientific source if you have one.

I am not arguing for universal health care in the US. The Canadian healthcare system is not perfect but it is hardly the disaster I see so many Americans describe. I have always received prompt and adequate treatment for my ailments.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Phred]
    #7919583 -

Phred said:
Why should I pay for your insulin?



why should i pay for your gas in iraq??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7919816 -

Because all the brown people must die for the world to be safe.

Once all the brown people are dead we can work on the fags and communists

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7919827 -

zappaisgod said:
Governments suck at running things and I don't give a fuck how much your medicine costs I don't feel like paying for it.


You don't pay for my medicine, but you do pay for the hundreds of thousands with chronic conditions who are more poor than me but no less sick who have to go to the hospital to receive treatment for preventable complications, even infections run amouk. And I'm talking about children, Zappa. Fucking 11 year old parasites.

Quote:
Pay your own way, slacker.


I do. And have. My entire life. I work hard. I am currently insured. I plan to always work hard. I like working hard, unlike you, who obviously hates work but loves huge piles of money. I adhere to Gandhi's notion that one of the seven social sins is wealth without work.
However when I look at other countries and see them uniformly better off, I ask "why?" Why are western countries with socialized medicine spending less on health care than the US? Why is the US ranked so low in terms of overall health? Why are there 50 million uninsured citizens here?

You keep giving me the same crap over and over. You keep telling me that I should support this dumb system that has failed so many of us, because you are offended by a system in which your precious tax money goes to health insurance. I don't care if you are offended. That is not a good argument. I don't care if you perceive me as being lazy, which is wholly inaccurate. Also a bad argument.

Quote:
Points 4&5 are about patient abuse, and by that I mean dumb ass patients who think they are entitled to the best of everything compounded by their idiotic flooding of the services for nothing. Selfish parasitic morons.


Hey Zappa's "target audience," if you continue to seek medicine or treatment when you are sick than you are a selfish parasitic moron! Welcome to American Health class 101!

Quote:
In my entire life I never saw a doctor for a cold or flu or small cut or bruise or sprain.


Why do you even bring this crap up? I'm talking about real illnesses here.

Quote:
I despise the health insurance companies. They are hardly better than the government but at least you can sue them.


But I thought you said that assholes who sue them drive up the costs.

Quote:
You are NOT why I write these things. You are my opponent, not my target reader. You are clearly invested in taking money from me so that you don't have to pay your own way.


Get over yourself. This isn't about YOU. I am not interested in taking your money away. And socialized medicine is paying my own way. I will be taxed. Probably pretty significantly. I don't care. I am already taxed to support the dumbest war in history, and no child left behind, and all of the other neo-conservative spend-happy bullshit that Bush has shat out over the last years. Might as well spend some of my money so I and my neighbors and homeless people and yes even you Zappa lord of assholes can benefit from healthier life and preventative care. I am interested in doing my part. I am interested in paying. Sign me up.

Quote:
And to that I say, fuck you. With all due respect, as in none.


Someone should ban your fat ass.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7920019 -

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/canada.asp


Quote:
Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?


Quote:
Capitalist for profit creates better service.


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: JRayV]
    #7920089 -

JRayV said:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/canada.asp



Didn't see anything about how many Canadians seek treatment in the US in that article. To me it looked like someone's personal list of detractions of the Canadian system, most of which were debunked or determined by Snopes to be unverifiable anecdotes. Of the criticisms that were not debunked, I would agree they are places to improve. Wait times were, unsurprisingly, not as bad as described anecdotally, not to say there is no room for improvement.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7920125 -

BrAiN said:
For someone who posts on a drug related website, you sure have a lot of plans that involve making people not do drugs :wink:


I think zaapa is 5-0. Lets bust a cap. :smile:


I left something out.  With gummint health care; no motorcycles.  Or skydiving or mountain climbing or anything at all risky.

If I have to pay I get to demand that you take good care of yourself.  If I don't have to pay......knock your own dumb self out.  My drug philosophy is that you should have the right to fuck yourself up all you want.  If you choose to do so I should have zero obligation to bail you out.  At all.  Live in a refrigerator box.  I don't fucking care.  You have clearly failed at life.  You are not my problem.


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7920171 -

WhiskeyClone said:
JRayV said:
Why is it that so many Canadian citizens flock to the U.S. when they are seeking medical treatment?

I don't like knowing that if I were to develop cancer that I would be waiting in line for months to receive radiation treatment.


My father is a cancer patient and he did not have to "wait in\\ line for months" to receive treatment. He is a rather critical person, but has had very few complaints about his experiences with the health care system here. I suspect your exaggerated impression of universal health care comes directly from the media or from hearsay, rather than actual experience with the Canadian health care system. I've never seen any hard numbers indicating exactly how many Canadians really do seek treatment in the US; please point me to a scientific source if you have one.

I am not arguing for universal health care in the US. The Canadian healthcare system is not perfect but it is hardly the disaster I see so many Americans describe. I have always received prompt and adequate treatment for my ailments.


Spot on. No health care system is going to be perfect. I know very few Canadians who are overly upset with the system, and the ones that are still wouldn't rather have the American system of health.


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7920205 -

zappaisgod said:
BrAiN said:
For someone who posts on a drug related website, you sure have a lot of plans that involve making people not do drugs :wink:


I think zaapa is 5-0. Lets bust a cap. :smile:


I left something out.  With gummint health care; no motorcycles.  Or skydiving or mountain climbing or anything at all risky.

If I have to pay I get to demand that you take good care of yourself.  If I don't have to pay......knock your own dumb self out.  My drug philosophy is that you should have the right to fuck yourself up all you want.  If you choose to do so I should have zero obligation to bail you out.  At all.  Live in a refrigerator box.  I don't fucking care.  You have clearly failed at life.  You are not my problem.


You already have to pay for someone else. What do you think your health insurance premiums are for? If you don't utilize as much value as you put in, the someone else is just using the money you're putting in.

So why not make those rules required for health insurance companies also? THe more people fuck themselves up, the more healthy people still have to pay.

Same principle

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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7920226 -

gluke bastid said:
zappaisgod said:
Governments suck at running things and I don't give a fuck how much your medicine costs I don't feel like paying for it.


You don't pay for my medicine, but you do pay for the hundreds of thousands with chronic conditions who are more poor than me but no less sick who have to go to the hospital to receive treatment for preventable complications, even infections run amouk. And I'm talking about children, Zappa. Fucking 11 year old parasites.


Yes, I do pay for those more poor than you. And their children. And what the fuck were their parents doing having children they can't support? Don't give me a line of shit that they didn't know they were losers when they got preggers. They were almost all already clearly failures. Very few are episodically unfortunate. You just can't seem to follow a point. You would make a lousy hunting dog.
Quote:
Quote:
Pay your own way, slacker.


I do. And have. My entire life. I work hard. I am currently insured. I plan to always work hard.


Didn't you just whine that you didn't want to pay for your insulin? Why yes, yes you did. I applaud your independence. I also despise your panhandling.
Quote:
I like working hard, unlike you, who obviously hates work but loves huge piles of money. I adhere to Gandhi's notion that one of the seven social sins is wealth without work.


I inherited nothing
Quote:
However when I look at other countries and see them uniformly better off, I ask "why?"


They aren't.
Quote:
Why are western countries with socialized medicine spending less on health care than the US?


Because we carry them and their care sucks.
Quote:
Why is the US ranked so low in terms of overall health? Why are there 50 million uninsured citizens here?

Because the rankers are socialists.
Quote:


You keep giving me the same crap over and over. You keep telling me that I should support this dumb system that has failed so many of us, because you are offended by a system in which your precious tax money goes to health insurance. I don't care if you are offended. That is not a good argument. I don't care if you perceive me as being lazy, which is wholly inaccurate. Also a bad argument.


I'm not offended. I don't care if you are lazy. I don't care if you are poor or rich. All I care about is that you not be a burden to me. I don't know you, I'm not related to you and I probably wouldn't like you if I met you. All your arguments amount to a transfer of funds from me to you and losers of your ilk. I'd rather not.
Quote:
Quote:
Points 4&5 are about patient abuse, and by that I mean dumb ass patients who think they are entitled to the best of everything compounded by their idiotic flooding of the services for nothing. Selfish parasitic morons.


Hey Zappa's "target audience," if you continue to seek medicine or treatment when you are sick than you are a selfish parasitic moron! Welcome to American Health class 101!


You really are out of touch. When a service is "free" it gets abused. This is beyond obvious. You are beyond obtuse.
Quote:
Quote:
In my entire life I never saw a doctor for a cold or flu or small cut or bruise or sprain.


Why do you even bring this crap up? I'm talking about real illnesses here.


Because I am talking about how health care costs become inflated through abuse. Holy fucking shit, it's like talking to a rock.
Quote:
Quote:
I despise the health insurance companies. They are hardly better than the government but at least you can sue them.


But I thought you said that assholes who sue them drive up the costs.



Spurious torts do. Real malpractice doesn't. Real malpractice will be unadressable when the gummint does it. Also, and this is a serious conceptual failing you have, I wasn't making a case against socialized medicine in my post. I was addressing the question of cost factors for health care. They are two different things.
Quote:
Quote:
You are NOT why I write these things. You are my opponent, not my target reader. You are clearly invested in taking money from me so that you don't have to pay your own way.


Get over yourself. This isn't about YOU. I am not interested in taking your money away. And socialized medicine is paying my own way. I will be taxed.


Politics is always about "me". Will you be taxed enough to pay your own way? Then why on earth would you want to put the gummint in charge of the care you get? You remove all choice. You will get what they say you will get or you will get nothing at all. Somehow I think you are more full of shit than two Christmas turkeys about what you pay for.
Quote:
Probably pretty significantly. I don't care. I am already taxed to support the dumbest war in history, and no child left behind, and all of the other neo-conservative spend-happy bullshit that Bush has shat out over the last years. Might as well spend some of my money so I and my neighbors and homeless people and yes even you Zappa lord of assholes can benefit from healthier life and preventative care. I am interested in doing my part. I am interested in paying. Sign me up.


No Child costs almost nothing and is a call FOR wealth redistribution. It isn't a neo thing at all you incredibly ignorant cipher. Co sponsor, Ted Kennedy. Some neo-con. You want preventive care? Stop smoking, drinking, toking, tooting, shooting, riding motor cycles, skydiving, mountain climbing, etc. etc. etc. No more fried foods for you. No. Fucking. Nothing. Your interested in paying? No one is stopping you. Pay. I pay too. I pay for me and my wife and my kids. The rest of you can pay for yourselves. What the hell, sport that I am, I'll even chip in for truly unfortunate people. The rest of you? Nothing.
Quote:


Quote:
And to that I say, fuck you. With all due respect, as in none.


Someone should ban your fat ass.


Nobody on this forum gets flamed more than me and that isn't a flame.


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7920253 -

BrAiN said:
You already have to pay for someone else. What do you think your health insurance premiums are for? If you don't utilize as much value as you put in, the someone else is just using the money you're putting in.


True. That is the nature of ALL insurance. It is also my choice.
Quote:
So why not make those rules required for health insurance companies also? THe more people fuck themselves up, the more healthy people still have to pay.

Same principle


Dangerous people get kicked out all the time. The thing about gummint mandated health care is that nobody can get kicked out so either everybody pays more for losers or losers get denied care. And by losers in this context I mean all McDonald's(obesity) customers and anybody who eats fried food(cholesterol) or sushi(mercury).


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Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7920426 -

True. That is the nature of ALL insurance. It is also my choice.

It might not be for long.:(

I see the problem in the health care system as a problem in the mental/emotional state of the average citizen. Unwilling to understand their responsiblilty for understanding the basics of staying healthy and the medical professions willingness to sell them anything to make a buck. The whole things broken IMO. I havent used a doctor in many years. I'm in my  mid 50s and healthy because I take good care of myself and I rarely find a doctor that knows more than I do about the basics of being healthy or preventive medicine.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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