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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7827957 -

He started a religion that currently costs me a sacrifice of $3.10 a gallon every time I make a pilgrimage to his temples.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828063 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.

Could you elaborate on how his ideas failed? Whom did they fail? Are you suggesting that no one has ever benefited from studying his teachings, or that they somehow failed because they have not radically altered humanity or human nature collectively?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828142 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.


Wrong


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7828238 -

I'm feeling lighthearted m'self.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Lion]
    #7828562 -

Quote:
Could you elaborate on how his ideas failed?


Sure. I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it. This is no surprise because the whole mess is pure dogma. The very idea that the human race was judged sick is idiotic. The human race is as it should be. In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud. Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828665 -

Quote:
Sure. I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it.

So you see what everyone is doing? What about those who have adopted a monastic lifestyle in a Buddhist tradition - how do you know that they are not 'doing it'?


Quote:
In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud.

This is an over-simplification. Though I don't know personally (and I can't imagine you do either), there may be many who have followed the noble eightfold path and found liberation from suffering. It wasn't a prescription for all of humanity's woes, but an individual self-examination which led to ideas about the nature of mind and suffering. Those ideas were meant to be questioned by those who came upon them; many ideas and techniques may have been institutionalized in various Buddhist sects with their true meanings changed or lost, but you can't throw out the whole system of thought because of that. I've heard that many Buddhist monks have a childlike, playful air about them and wouldn't be surprised to learn that on average they enjoy a very high quality of life.


Quote:
Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.

I have come upon some Buddhist writing which seems to suggest there is a way one should think and act, but most Buddhist practice is less dogmatic than you suggest. And how is Buddhism in any way "authoritarian"?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828792 -

Quote:
I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it.


That may be because this is a message board, and all that anyone can do here is talk. If you're talking about in real life, then perhaps you're looking in the wrong places. I find that generally, people who walk the walk tend to not talk the talk so much.

Quote:
The very idea that the human race was judged sick is idiotic. The human race is as it should be.


Saying that the human being is sick is simply a metaphor, one that works for some, and not for others. I agree that human beings are as they are (the should word isn't necessary, IMO).

The way I see it, it's like a paradox. On the one hand, we are perfect, whole, and complete just as we are. No need to add, subtract, or change anything at all. On the other hand, we generally don't see this. We live life from the narrow perspective of our own years of conditioned reactions, desires, and fears. No matter what we do, there tends to be a persistent ache of the heart...a feeling that something just isn't right, or something is missing, or something like that.

So in other words, we are perfect just as we are, and nothing is missing. But because we don't see this, and believe and live otherwise, we live out of a sort of existential confusion. That is the "sickness" that Siddhartha was referring to. It's not really a judgment from on high, but an honest observation of the human condition.

Quote:
In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud.


Why do you say that?

Quote:
Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think.


It's true that he never wrote anything down, but it's not true that his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. They wrote down his teachings as best as could be articulated and agreed upon however long it was after he died.

But seeing those teachings as being some external authority is a mistake. They are observations on how to live a life that is in harmony with reality and life just as it is. They're there to be taken or left.

Quote:
It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.


That's a vast over-generalization.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: dblaney]
    #7829049 -

I see Buddhism as being just as dogmatic and fear based as Christianity. Maybe Buddha did not intend this, but it IS what others have done with his teachings. Come on, any teaching that uses an afterlife as a carrot on a stick to inspire the masses by inciting and placating their fear at the same time is not really rational. Lion implied that we should look to the monastic style of life as a model, but locking yourself away from society to become "pure" is not moderate in any way. It is irrational. Isn't the middle way about the middle...not the extremes? I don't see Buddha's cure curing anything. In any case I think that mankind is not ill or malformed in any way. I see our species as a wonder of nature fulfilling it's purpose within the universe to perfection. I am happy about the success of our species with all of the perceived sickness it holds. We are perfect, and a cure is not needed even if it did exist.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7829152 -

Buddha didn't talk about an afterlife, and I think he would say that the point is to realize that there IS no carrot. Reincarnation is an added dogma - Buddha did talk about Rebirth:

Quote:
Q: What is the difference between reincarnation and rebirth?
A: The reincarnation idea is to believe in a soul or a being, separate from the body. At the death of the physical body, this soul is said to move into another state and then enter a womb to be born again.

Rebirth is different and can be explained in this way. Take away the notion of a soul or a being living inside the body; take away all ideas of self existing either inside or outside the body. Also take away notions of past, present and future; in fact take away all notions of time. Now, without reference to time and self, there can be no before or after, no beginning or ending, no birth or death, no coming or going. Yet there is life! Rebirth is the experience of life in the moment, without birth, without death; it is the experience of life which is neither eternal nor subject to annihilation.


I agree with you that we are already perfect, and our flaws make us interesting and beautiful. That doesn't mean we can't take the opportunity to de-identify from constructs which create suffering for us.


--------------------

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7830721 -

Quote:
Buddha didn't talk about an afterlife


Who knows what he really did talk about when our only source of this info is a bunch of dogmatic scriptures? Anyway, rebirth is just another afterlife...

Quote:
I agree with you that we are already perfect, and our flaws make us interesting and beautiful. That doesn't mean we can't take the opportunity to de-identify from constructs which create suffering for us.


I agree, but part of de-identifying from constructs is to also de-identify with the any religion...including Buddhism.

Quote:
To experience, all identification must cease. To experiment, there must be no fear. Fear prevents experience. It is fear that makes for identification - identification with another, with a group, with an ideology, and so on. Fear must resist, suppress; and in a state of self-defence, how can there be venturing on the uncharted sea? Truth or happiness cannot come without undertaking the journey into the ways of the self. You cannot travel far if you are anchored. Identification is a refuge. A refuge needs protection, and that which is protected is soon destroyed. Identification brings destruction upon itself, and hence the constant conflict between various identifications.


--Jiddu Krishnamurti


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7831272 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
Could you elaborate on how his ideas failed?


Sure. I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it. This is no surprise because the whole mess is pure dogma. The very idea that the human race was judged sick is idiotic. The human race is as it should be. In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud. Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.


I so disagree. Many people have benefited (including you) from the knowledge that attachment brings suffering. Please dispute the reality of what the Buddha said here (whether he said it or not).

And while in the Universal sense all is as it should be, on a subjective personal level often it isn't and that's where a little healthy psychology can help. You know this to be true yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7831282 -


I agree, but part of de-identifying from constructs is to also de-identify with the any religion...including Buddhism.

    Quote:
    To experience, all identification must cease. To experiment, there must be no fear. Fear prevents experience. It is fear that makes for identification - identification with another, with a group, with an ideology, and so on. Fear must resist, suppress; and in a state of self-defence, how can there be venturing on the uncharted sea? Truth or happiness cannot come without undertaking the journey into the ways of the self. You cannot travel far if you are anchored. Identification is a refuge. A refuge needs protection, and that which is protected is soon destroyed. Identification brings destruction upon itself, and hence the constant conflict between various identifications.


--Jiddu Krishnamurti

You negate the Buddhas teaching and then go on to quote your favorite icon of the month. I think Krishnamurti was a little stuffy myself. :lol: Not to mention long winded and boring although he had a couple of good things to say. And I don't think Buddha started a religion any more than CC did and yet there it is anyway.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7831458 -

Your criticisms are based only on attack. I see no point made here.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7831591 -

Then you are blind. And I don't think Buddha started a religion any more than CC did and yet there it is anyway. (this is debate Hue) You position is not defensible and you have failed to answer earlier questions as to the worth of Buddhas teachings.Many people have benefited (including you) from the knowledge that attachment brings suffering. Please dispute the reality of what the Buddha said here (whether he said it or not).

So please explain Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.


I wouldn't say it has failed for me. In fact it's the same idea as CC.

Edited by Icelander (01/04/08 12:19 PM)

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7832406 -

Even though you continue to insult me I will give more explanation. If Buddha made this statement:

Quote:
"All humanity is sick. I come therefore to you as a physician who has diagnosed this universal disease and is prepared to cure it"


then he failed. He had zero authority to declare humanity sick. His so called cure did not work because people still have the same issues as during his time. He also seems very self important to declare that he is THE doctor for the job...and then NOT do it. It sounds like he was talking a lot of shit. Religion causes as much suffering as the afflictions that he said that he would cure...if not more. It is even the root of those same issues. If you evaluate the statement you posted in this light....he failed. His ideas brought relief to a few and misery to many...just like that Jesus guy. Both of these messiahs made the assumption that people were flawed and they told us that we could not aspire to the perfection that we already possess.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7832578 -

Once again you have failed to answer the question I asked you. Many people have benefited (including you) from the knowledge that attachment brings suffering. Please dispute the reality of what the Buddha said here (whether he said it or not).


But I will respond to your points here. First of all he hasn't failed yet. The Fat Lady hasn't sung for humanity. If humanity would let go of attachment (death anxiety) they can create a more skillful and prosperous experience here IMO. The issues that humans still have are the responsibility of each person to deal with. Buddha identified the problem and made the diagnosis and correctly I believe but he cannot force people to swallow the pill. The Buddha did not I believe intend a religion as he had already rejected that path and I wouldn't blame it on him anymore than I would blame Calvinism on Jesus. I just can't see how his ideas brought misery to many? Would you please explain this to me? Your last sentence Both of these messiahs made the assumption that people were flawed and they told us that we could not aspire to the perfection that we already possess. doesn't make sense to me. You'll have to explain that one also.

All I see is you ranting against religion when that is not what we are talking about. At least that isn't what I meant this thread to be about. It's about healthy psychology if anything and that religion and true believers are not excluded from the general malaise.

I didn't know you could be insulted.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/04/08 04:35 PM)

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7834061 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I see Buddhism as being just as dogmatic and fear based as Christianity. Maybe Buddha did not intend this, but it IS what others have done with his teachings. Come on, any teaching that uses an afterlife as a carrot on a stick to inspire the masses by inciting and placating their fear at the same time is not really rational. Lion implied that we should look to the monastic style of life as a model, but locking yourself away from society to become "pure" is not moderate in any way. It is irrational. Isn't the middle way about the middle...not the extremes? I don't see Buddha's cure curing anything. In any case I think that mankind is not ill or malformed in any way. I see our species as a wonder of nature fulfilling it's purpose within the universe to perfection. I am happy about the success of our species with all of the perceived sickness it holds. We are perfect, and a cure is not needed even if it did exist.


Perfect response! I'm not going to bother restating it.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7834564 -

Buddha loaned me his book of secrets. It was blank, except for the last page which read, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: justamonkey]
    #7834745 -

Lot of bullshit here about Buddha and Buddhism from people who don't know what Buddha or Buddhism taught. Buddha taught about karma. What you sow you reap. You guys made alot of mistatements based on a faulty quote. He didn't say he was the cure to anything. That sounds more like popular Christianity. He said, a person is shot by an arrow and rather than people working to remove the arrow and cure the person they were more concerned with who shot it and why. Buddhism is about pulling the arrow out and curing the wound, it's not about some fear based afterlife oriented paradox. It specifically is about making life better in the present for oneself and others. As with any philosophy people read something and consider themselves experts. Like jokers that through a few dinner parties and read a few cookbooks are all of a sudden gourmands and on the level of the great chefs. Well that aint the fucking truth. The tricks of the trade are everything.


--------------------
...or something






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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7834756 -

Where did you get that quote? I can't seem to find it in any of the sutta's or sutra's.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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