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InvisibleIcelander
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Buddha (560-480B.C.E.)
    #7826870 - 01/03/08 09:59 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

"All humanity is sick. I come therefore to you as a physician who has diagnosed this universal disease and is prepared to cure it"

Buddha didn't say "some of humanity is sick". He didn't say that "humanity is sick except for the religious and spiritual folk". The pundits, the gurus, ones who were supposedly awakened and the ones who had divine revelation and experienced the totality of God and the white light and all that stuff. He didn't leave them out. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7826885 - 01/03/08 10:04 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Yeah, but we have more humans now, more sickness, and the one-man shows no longer work in the present time.


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: shakercee]
    #7826891 - 01/03/08 10:06 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

They never worked.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7826924 - 01/03/08 10:14 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

People deny medical treatment all of the time. You can only lead a horse to water.


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7826973 - 01/03/08 10:34 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Yes...but...that saying does not mean that Siddhartha of the Gotama clan was the ONLY whole being in the world. As Jesus was made to say by Mark:

"And when Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." - Mark 2:17

And THIS saying for all those post-Augustinian 'Christians' who hold to Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin, not the healthier, earlier notion of the Hebrews which recognized an 'evil inclination' (the yetzer hara), but rejected that we are ALL radically depraved owing to our inherited sin/separation from God from our mythic Primal Parents. Original Sin makes the 'salvation' of Jesus absolutely necessary for wholeness/holiness/redemption even though Jesus Himself said things like: "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" - John 1:47

East or West, there are enlightened/righteous individuals among the pundits, gurus, Saducees, Pharisees, Essenes


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7827006 - 01/03/08 10:47 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

How did Buddha know he was going to be born 560 years before Christ? :wtf:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7827043 - 01/03/08 11:06 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Yes...but...:lol:

Sometimes trolling is just too easy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7827045 - 01/03/08 11:07 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How did Buddha know he was going to be born 560 years before Christ? :wtf:




BooDA know all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7827051 - 01/03/08 11:16 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Who said Buddha was a whole being?

And

How do you know there were or are enlightened individuals among us?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7827061 - 01/03/08 11:20 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I have a friend, and I say friend not because we spend a lot of time together or have the same interest - he's a lot older than I am - he's a friend because that is his attitude towards everyone. I see him about once or twice a week when I go to the physical therapist. He is an enlightened/righteous individual and I am always learning something new about my self and new perspectives when I talk to him. I am always amazed at his selflessness and his love and empathy for people. He is not one of these "eager to please" desperate for affection type of people - he simply knows what people need, even if they don't, and will soften your ego not through cutting you down but by pointing things out to you but in exactly the way that you would want it to be spoken so it still feels like you are in control. For me, he will usually say something that would just confuse the hell out of someone else but somehow I understand exactly what he is really saying... "your fingers are long, his fingers are stubby. you could learn from him" - what does his fingers being stubby have to do with being able to learn something from him? :lol: He is a very strong empath.

He still has work to do of course, as we all do. If he didn't, he wouldn't have a reason to stay here anymore. We are all enlightened, just different degrees.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7827064 - 01/03/08 11:23 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

For me, he will usually say something that would just confuse the hell out of someone else but somehow I understand exactly what he is really saying...

I know exactly what you mean.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7827083 - 01/03/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

What do you mean? :confused:


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Offlinedirtworshipper
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7827142 - 01/03/08 11:59 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Your friend sounds like a very High person.
:smileyfrog:

I think everyone eventually reaches enlightenment. like.. returning Home.
I believe there have been many enlightened lotus feet walking around this Earth.
There are probably still some walking around.
But the thing is, they aren't religious..
they aren't famous..
and they won't claim to be anything or anyone..

Currently, I'm reading "The Way of the Pilgrim", which is about one person's journey back hOMe, while reciting a ceaseless prayer/mantra.
And I just finished reading a book about Neem Karoli Baba, whom was a very High person in India. He often said things like "I am nobody, I know nothing"


--------------------

“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7827221 - 01/03/08 12:21 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Who said Buddha was a whole being?

And

How do you know there were or are enlightened individuals among us?




Well, there's us...After all, it's a matter of degree, not 0,1.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7827270 - 01/03/08 12:32 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes...but...:lol:

Sometimes trolling is just too easy.




Hey...I'm on holiday til Monday next. It's been cold in south Florida - dropped to 38 degrees last night, gray and windy right now. I'm gonna have another cup of tea, move to the big beanbag and read for a while. Might have eliminated a co-worker's 20+ year claustrophobia earlier today. Short of sudden death or catastrophe, nothings gonna bring me down! :razz:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7827704 - 01/03/08 02:29 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I'm on holiday almost everyday.:tongue2:

You need to invest more wisely.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7827711 - 01/03/08 02:30 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
What do you mean? :confused:




I mean what I say. (sometimes)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7827732 - 01/03/08 02:35 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Who said Buddha was a whole being?

And

How do you know there were or are enlightened individuals among us?




Well, there's us...After all, it's a matter of degree, not 0,1.




I'm fully lightheaded.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7827939 - 01/03/08 03:18 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7827946 - 01/03/08 03:19 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

What about Ford?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7827957 - 01/03/08 03:23 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

He started a religion that currently costs me a sacrifice of $3.10 a gallon every time I make a pilgrimage to his temples.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineLion
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828063 - 01/03/08 03:46 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.


Could you elaborate on how his ideas failed? Whom did they fail? Are you suggesting that no one has ever benefited from studying his teachings, or that they somehow failed because they have not radically altered humanity or human nature collectively?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828142 - 01/03/08 04:03 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.




Wrong


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7828238 - 01/03/08 04:26 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I'm feeling lighthearted m'self.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Lion]
    #7828562 - 01/03/08 06:03 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Could you elaborate on how his ideas failed?




Sure. I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it. This is no surprise because the whole mess is pure dogma. The very idea that the human race was judged sick is idiotic. The human race is as it should be. In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud. Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineLion
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828665 - 01/03/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Sure. I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it.


So you see what everyone is doing? What about those who have adopted a monastic lifestyle in a Buddhist tradition - how do you know that they are not 'doing it'?


Quote:

In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud.


This is an over-simplification. Though I don't know personally (and I can't imagine you do either), there may be many who have followed the noble eightfold path and found liberation from suffering. It wasn't a prescription for all of humanity's woes, but an individual self-examination which led to ideas about the nature of mind and suffering. Those ideas were meant to be questioned by those who came upon them; many ideas and techniques may have been institutionalized in various Buddhist sects with their true meanings changed or lost, but you can't throw out the whole system of thought because of that. I've heard that many Buddhist monks have a childlike, playful air about them and wouldn't be surprised to learn that on average they enjoy a very high quality of life.


Quote:

Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.


I have come upon some Buddhist writing which seems to suggest there is a way one should think and act, but most Buddhist practice is less dogmatic than you suggest. And how is Buddhism in any way "authoritarian"?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7828792 - 01/03/08 06:44 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it.




That may be because this is a message board, and all that anyone can do here is talk. If you're talking about in real life, then perhaps you're looking in the wrong places. I find that generally, people who walk the walk tend to not talk the talk so much.

Quote:

The very idea that the human race was judged sick is idiotic. The human race is as it should be.




Saying that the human being is sick is simply a metaphor, one that works for some, and not for others. I agree that human beings are as they are (the should word isn't necessary, IMO).

The way I see it, it's like a paradox. On the one hand, we are perfect, whole, and complete just as we are. No need to add, subtract, or change anything at all. On the other hand, we generally don't see this. We live life from the narrow perspective of our own years of conditioned reactions, desires, and fears. No matter what we do, there tends to be a persistent ache of the heart...a feeling that something just isn't right, or something is missing, or something like that.

So in other words, we are perfect just as we are, and nothing is missing. But because we don't see this, and believe and live otherwise, we live out of a sort of existential confusion. That is the "sickness" that Siddhartha was referring to. It's not really a judgment from on high, but an honest observation of the human condition.

Quote:

In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud.




Why do you say that?

Quote:

Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think.




It's true that he never wrote anything down, but it's not true that his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. They wrote down his teachings as best as could be articulated and agreed upon however long it was after he died.

But seeing those teachings as being some external authority is a mistake. They are observations on how to live a life that is in harmony with reality and life just as it is. They're there to be taken or left.

Quote:

It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.




That's a vast over-generalization.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: dblaney]
    #7829049 - 01/03/08 07:16 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I see Buddhism as being just as dogmatic and fear based as Christianity. Maybe Buddha did not intend this, but it IS what others have done with his teachings. Come on, any teaching that uses an afterlife as a carrot on a stick to inspire the masses by inciting and placating their fear at the same time is not really rational. Lion implied that we should look to the monastic style of life as a model, but locking yourself away from society to become "pure" is not moderate in any way. It is irrational. Isn't the middle way about the middle...not the extremes? I don't see Buddha's cure curing anything. In any case I think that mankind is not ill or malformed in any way. I see our species as a wonder of nature fulfilling it's purpose within the universe to perfection. I am happy about the success of our species with all of the perceived sickness it holds. We are perfect, and a cure is not needed even if it did exist.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7829152 - 01/03/08 07:31 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Buddha didn't talk about an afterlife, and I think he would say that the point is to realize that there IS no carrot. Reincarnation is an added dogma - Buddha did talk about Rebirth:

Quote:

Q: What is the difference between reincarnation and rebirth?
A: The reincarnation idea is to believe in a soul or a being, separate from the body. At the death of the physical body, this soul is said to move into another state and then enter a womb to be born again.

Rebirth is different and can be explained in this way. Take away the notion of a soul or a being living inside the body; take away all ideas of self existing either inside or outside the body. Also take away notions of past, present and future; in fact take away all notions of time. Now, without reference to time and self, there can be no before or after, no beginning or ending, no birth or death, no coming or going. Yet there is life! Rebirth is the experience of life in the moment, without birth, without death; it is the experience of life which is neither eternal nor subject to annihilation.




I agree with you that we are already perfect, and our flaws make us interesting and beautiful. That doesn't mean we can't take the opportunity to de-identify from constructs which create suffering for us.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7830721 - 01/04/08 04:37 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Buddha didn't talk about an afterlife



Who knows what he really did talk about when our only source of this info is a bunch of dogmatic scriptures? Anyway, rebirth is just another afterlife...

Quote:

I agree with you that we are already perfect, and our flaws make us interesting and beautiful. That doesn't mean we can't take the opportunity to de-identify from constructs which create suffering for us.




I agree, but part of de-identifying from constructs is to also de-identify with the any religion...including Buddhism.

Quote:

To experience, all identification must cease. To experiment, there must be no fear. Fear prevents experience. It is fear that makes for identification - identification with another, with a group, with an ideology, and so on. Fear must resist, suppress; and in a state of self-defence, how can there be venturing on the uncharted sea? Truth or happiness cannot come without undertaking the journey into the ways of the self. You cannot travel far if you are anchored. Identification is a refuge. A refuge needs protection, and that which is protected is soon destroyed. Identification brings destruction upon itself, and hence the constant conflict between various identifications.



--Jiddu Krishnamurti


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7831272 - 01/04/08 09:28 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:

Could you elaborate on how his ideas failed?




Sure. I see everyone talking shit and no one doing it. This is no surprise because the whole mess is pure dogma. The very idea that the human race was judged sick is idiotic. The human race is as it should be. In any case, if humans are sick and he had the cure, then the cure is a dud. Then it must be considered that this guy never wrote anything down...his disciples told us what we SHOULD think. It is a load of organized authoritarian dogma.




I so disagree. Many people have benefited (including you) from the knowledge that attachment brings suffering. Please dispute the reality of what the Buddha said here (whether he said it or not).

And while in the Universal sense all is as it should be, on a subjective personal level often it isn't and that's where a little healthy psychology can help. You know this to be true yourself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7831282 - 01/04/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)


I agree, but part of de-identifying from constructs is to also de-identify with the any religion...including Buddhism.

    Quote:
    To experience, all identification must cease. To experiment, there must be no fear. Fear prevents experience. It is fear that makes for identification - identification with another, with a group, with an ideology, and so on. Fear must resist, suppress; and in a state of self-defence, how can there be venturing on the uncharted sea? Truth or happiness cannot come without undertaking the journey into the ways of the self. You cannot travel far if you are anchored. Identification is a refuge. A refuge needs protection, and that which is protected is soon destroyed. Identification brings destruction upon itself, and hence the constant conflict between various identifications.


--Jiddu Krishnamurti


You negate the Buddhas teaching and then go on to quote your favorite icon of the month. I think Krishnamurti was a little stuffy myself. :lol: Not to mention long winded and boring although he had a couple of good things to say. And I don't think Buddha started a religion any more than CC did and yet there it is anyway.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7831458 - 01/04/08 10:26 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Your criticisms are based only on attack. I see no point made here.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7831591 - 01/04/08 11:10 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Then you are blind. And I don't think Buddha started a religion any more than CC did and yet there it is anyway. (this is debate Hue) You position is not defensible and you have failed to answer earlier questions as to the worth of Buddhas teachings.Many people have benefited (including you) from the knowledge that attachment brings suffering. Please dispute the reality of what the Buddha said here (whether he said it or not).

So please explain Yeah Buddha...another guy with a failed idea... next.


I wouldn't say it has failed for me. In fact it's the same idea as CC.


Edited by Icelander (01/04/08 12:19 PM)


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7832406 - 01/04/08 03:45 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Even though you continue to insult me I will give more explanation. If Buddha made this statement:

Quote:

"All humanity is sick. I come therefore to you as a physician who has diagnosed this universal disease and is prepared to cure it"




then he failed. He had zero authority to declare humanity sick. His so called cure did not work because people still have the same issues as during his time. He also seems very self important to declare that he is THE doctor for the job...and then NOT do it. It sounds like he was talking a lot of shit. Religion causes as much suffering as the afflictions that he said that he would cure...if not more. It is even the root of those same issues. If you evaluate the statement you posted in this light....he failed. His ideas brought relief to a few and misery to many...just like that Jesus guy. Both of these messiahs made the assumption that people were flawed and they told us that we could not aspire to the perfection that we already possess.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7832578 - 01/04/08 04:29 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Once again you have failed to answer the question I asked you. Many people have benefited (including you) from the knowledge that attachment brings suffering. Please dispute the reality of what the Buddha said here (whether he said it or not).


But I will respond to your points here. First of all he hasn't failed yet. The Fat Lady hasn't sung for humanity. If humanity would let go of attachment (death anxiety) they can create a more skillful and prosperous experience here IMO. The issues that humans still have are the responsibility of each person to deal with. Buddha identified the problem and made the diagnosis and correctly I believe but he cannot force people to swallow the pill. The Buddha did not I believe intend a religion as he had already rejected that path and I wouldn't blame it on him anymore than I would blame Calvinism on Jesus. I just can't see how his ideas brought misery to many? Would you please explain this to me? Your last sentence Both of these messiahs made the assumption that people were flawed and they told us that we could not aspire to the perfection that we already possess. doesn't make sense to me. You'll have to explain that one also.

All I see is you ranting against religion when that is not what we are talking about. At least that isn't what I meant this thread to be about. It's about healthy psychology if anything and that religion and true believers are not excluded from the general malaise.

I didn't know you could be insulted.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/04/08 04:35 PM)


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7834061 - 01/04/08 11:25 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I see Buddhism as being just as dogmatic and fear based as Christianity. Maybe Buddha did not intend this, but it IS what others have done with his teachings. Come on, any teaching that uses an afterlife as a carrot on a stick to inspire the masses by inciting and placating their fear at the same time is not really rational. Lion implied that we should look to the monastic style of life as a model, but locking yourself away from society to become "pure" is not moderate in any way. It is irrational. Isn't the middle way about the middle...not the extremes? I don't see Buddha's cure curing anything. In any case I think that mankind is not ill or malformed in any way. I see our species as a wonder of nature fulfilling it's purpose within the universe to perfection. I am happy about the success of our species with all of the perceived sickness it holds. We are perfect, and a cure is not needed even if it did exist.




Perfect response! I'm not going to bother restating it.


--------------------
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http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7834564 - 01/05/08 06:01 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Buddha loaned me his book of secrets. It was blank, except for the last page which read, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: justamonkey]
    #7834745 - 01/05/08 08:52 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Lot of bullshit here about Buddha and Buddhism from people who don't know what Buddha or Buddhism taught. Buddha taught about karma. What you sow you reap. You guys made alot of mistatements based on a faulty quote. He didn't say he was the cure to anything. That sounds more like popular Christianity. He said, a person is shot by an arrow and rather than people working to remove the arrow and cure the person they were more concerned with who shot it and why. Buddhism is about pulling the arrow out and curing the wound, it's not about some fear based afterlife oriented paradox. It specifically is about making life better in the present for oneself and others. As with any philosophy people read something and consider themselves experts. Like jokers that through a few dinner parties and read a few cookbooks are all of a sudden gourmands and on the level of the great chefs. Well that aint the fucking truth. The tricks of the trade are everything.


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7834756 - 01/05/08 08:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Where did you get that quote? I can't seem to find it in any of the sutta's or sutra's.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #7834809 - 01/05/08 09:28 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

He often said things like "I know nothing"




I thought that was Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: eve69]
    #7834812 - 01/05/08 09:30 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

All religion is nothing but poison...even Buddhism.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: psyka]
    #7835361 - 01/05/08 12:33 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
Where did you get that quote? I can't seem to find it in any of the sutta's or sutra's.




I got it from a book on the TV sitcom Seinfeld, "Seinfeld and Psychology"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7835371 - 01/05/08 12:35 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
All religion is nothing but poison...even Buddhism.




I must agree. However that quote had nothing to do with the Buddhist religion but were the (alleged) words of Buddha.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7838367 - 01/06/08 07:15 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

I havn't posted here in ages, and I just stopped by and saw this thread and figured I'd throw in my input:

All these people, Buddha, maybe Christ, you know, any supposedly "high being", all these religions etc. are all about YOU waking up NOW. The words they say are not the point. Buddha sees that you get caught up in your games, your stories about the world, so he tells you, he tells everyone around him who is asking him for help, "Hey man, you are causing your own suffering! You gotta stop your games! If you want some help, here's an approach that might work! But in the end, the teachings are like a raft. When you've crossed the river, you don't carry the raft on your shoulders, you leave it behind."

So, all the teachings are to make you realize that from the very beginning you are free. All the teachers are just doing their best, using your language, teaching their teachings, to wake you up!

It's not about dogma. It's not about belief. It's about skillful means so that you can get over yourself, get over your limited view of the world, get over your attachments, get over your fantasies about the world, including your fantasies about Buddhism or Christianity or whatever.

Anyone who says that the so-called "religion" of buddhism, or probably christianity or anything else, is about anything other than waking you up to the reality of your life, is just misinformed, spreading false dharma, preaching delusion. Anyone who holds to the doctrine as an end, as the most important thing, is missing the point entirely.

These are some of my thoughts.


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: psyka]
    #7842230 - 01/07/08 03:01 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Buddha was full of shit, and he knew it, why don't you? :smile:


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #7842354 - 01/07/08 05:38 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Your post is quite obviously Buddhist in approach, but that approach - a fully realized eschatology - belongs only to certain forms of Gnostic Christianity or pseudo-Gnostic Christianity such as the Gospel According to Thomas. Christianity, by-and-large, is a form of Greek mythology with a hint of Hebrew midrash still retained. Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Christianity are entirely vested in the words, stories and alleged historical forms of their religion. Salvation to historical human beings is going to come through historical theophanies like the Second Coming of Jesus, the Rapture, etc. not about waking up. Only Eastern Orthodoxy has the idea of 'theosis' as the pinnacle of human development - becoming God essentially, but grace is absolutely necessary. That's OK, for Buddhists, karma is beyond the control of the ego as well. I agree with your stance, but it is really not the take of mainstream Christianity.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #7843277 - 01/07/08 11:54 AM (16 years, 25 days ago)

I wholeheartedly agree ! :thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7843298 - 01/07/08 12:00 PM (16 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

He often said things like "I know nothing"




I thought that was Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes...




Shave the moustache, swap the uniform for an orange robe and - voila!


--------------------


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7847145 - 01/08/08 09:09 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Good point markos.

I should be more careful about putting words into other people's (or in this case religion's) mouths.


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #7847209 - 01/08/08 09:46 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

Markos, you fail to recognize the multiplicity of new Christian faiths for which awakening to spirit is the key value, and also Second Coming. These are newly formed faiths with no historical precident. Created through personal interpretation of scripture.

It's nice, and fairly scholarly to ascribe historical values to streams of thought. It's neat and tidy. However, humans are largely irrational and the spiritual as it deals exclusively with the paradoxical nature of man's existance as cought in the crux of dualisms at all times, spirituality is not about history, precedent, scripture, or anything else that objectify it. Spirituality just is, like being hungry or thirsty. One can talk cuisine and mixology all they desire but people will eat and drink as they are merely able, each to their taste, and there will be restaurants hopefully to serve all. There will be absolutely no point in the discussion as people are chowing down, except to accentuate the differences of the foods and enliven the tastes.

Religion is as served to humans, like fast food. Discuss precedent all you like. It makes little difference and enhances the flavor little, but religion serves to fill some hunger. Others will find their cuisine where they will.

Obviously I can discuss the hamburger and show how ground beef was a German inventions (not ironic I suppose, considering). And then I can discuss how the sandwich was a French thing, and how Americans put the two together (that was all made up) and sped up the process, adding some country elements like grilling, and Bam, Now we think we know we're cooking and we know what it's all about. Right?


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: eve69]
    #7847330 - 01/08/08 10:40 AM (16 years, 24 days ago)

When young, I aspired to become a graduate of the school of mixology.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7847576 - 01/08/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

I am sitting here eating a bowl of soup. The circumstances of eating it are not all that perfect. I am alone. I prefer to eat with others. It's also leftover soup. Which while sometimes it's better than firsttime soup, this isn't the case. Also, I didn't have other ingredients to add more to suit my tastes. I was hungry so I am eating it. It is good howeverm spicy and hot. So I can eat it. But as I do it takes a bit of effort to want to fill my stomach, and I am thinking that when I eat really really good soup I want to stick it in my face and more of it, without reservation, without thought, without noticing much besides what is in front of me.


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: eve69]
    #7847725 - 01/08/08 12:40 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

I declare you enlightened grasshopper.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7848154 - 01/08/08 02:11 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

I'll have some Enlightenment on Rye, with a side of Understanding and a Biggie Sized Amen, oooh, and I have a coupon for a free 42oz cup of Bullshit?

Whats that, you say thats the Religious Extra Value Meal?

Sure, hell, I'll have three, I'm kinda hungry!


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: justamonkey]
    #7848216 - 01/08/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 24 days ago)

That's McDonald's dollar menu.


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: Icelander]
    #7853606 - 01/09/08 01:18 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

On a personal note:

He refused to initiate women out of fear for the celibacy of his monks - who then wound up gay instead.
- The Razor's Edge / Rajneesh 1987


--------------------
To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


Edited by 2sky (01/09/08 01:34 PM)


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: 2sky]
    #7853706 - 01/09/08 01:38 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

Happy gay?:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: 2sky]
    #7856056 - 01/09/08 08:49 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

2sky said:
On a personal note:

He refused to initiate women out of fear for the celibacy of his monks - who then wound up gay instead.
- The Razor's Edge / Rajneesh 1987




If he's talking about the Buddha, then that's just bullshit. He set the precedent of allowing women to be initiated. At first he wouldn't let them, but he was eventually convinced by Ananda. Hence today there are monks and nuns.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

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Re: Buddha (560-480B.C.E.) [Re: dblaney]
    #7856334 - 01/09/08 09:46 PM (16 years, 23 days ago)

So then their were happy gays and lesbians?:)


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To fly to the sun without burning a wing , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

But for a tree to grow to the sky, it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - Tantra,the Supreme Understanding - osho


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