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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7799965 -

Quote:
Neuroscientists are probably about fifty years away from discovering what a "healthy" brain looks like at the chemical level.



In a brave new world...

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7800177 -

LiquidSmoke said:
YawningAnus said:
maybe you can name me one disorder or disease that psychiatry has cured or even effectively combated?



Wow.

shows how much you know.


I just want you to show me any study that shows that due to psychiatry mental abberation/disease has been effectively decreased.... OR! name anything that psychiatry has been able to rid mankind of to such a degree that we no longer have to ever worry about it again.....
that should be pretty easy... right?
just one thing that you can show me and say "look, here it proves that psychiatry has had a positive impact upon our society".
I know that "positive" is subjective, but I think it would be pretty easy to make an unbiased, american ideals, concept of what a positive step would be.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7800191 -

LiquidSmoke said:
Quote:
YawningAnus said:


take ADHD for example.


i like how you only ever talk about is ADHD as your primary tool to discredit an entire field which you hardly know anything about.

In fact, in almost every single mental illness debate you've ever involved yourself in, you've always had to revert to "ADHD as an example" instead of "ADHD as the best example i can think of".


well, while I sat in school and watched as almost every single one of my friends was put on amphetamines, and also when in 6th grade my mother was threatened to be tried as a neglectful parent because she refused to put me on Ritalin.... yeah, I would say that it was a pretty good catalyst for me learning a good bit about it.
From that, I have witnessed the boom of the pharmaceutical industry and been able to apply a skeptical eye to it.

I will admit that when it comes to pharmacology, you know way more than me.... but Im not ever debating the mechanics of pharmacology unless I am showing the difference between amphetamine salts and methamphatamines.... what I have debated so far in this forum deals with aspets of politics, finances, lobbying, crimes, history and that the entire theory of psychiatry is fundamentally flawed.
how come no one has been able to shut me up? all it takes is just one time and then you can just keep quoting it every time a new debate like this comes up.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7800213 -

Quote:
The reason drugs are so popular and widely used today is not just due to the fact that they bring in lots of money, but because there is currently no practical solution to the problem (again - doesn't apply to everyone, see paragraph above). They might not be perfect, and I believe that in the coming decades, their use will decline as we uncover more about the brain, but until then, millions of people deserve a standard quality of life.


how are we supposed to find a solution if the pharmaceutical industry squashes anything that tries to compete?
If you want to get all "everyone deserves the right to be happy".... then what they are doing is unethical in a larger scope.

imagine that you lost your leg from the knee down. Now scientists have dilligently worked for the last 50 years to give you...... "A WOODEN LEG!". Now, it does solve the immediate problem of levelling you out and helping you get short distances.... but it breaks about every month and you have to go back and buy a new one.
Now, since the American Prosthetics Association has been basically bought by this wooden leg manufacturer, they entered into a mutually beneficial position... kind of like 69 if you are following me here.
By ensuring that the APA has accreditation approval for anyone else that would like to try and make a better solution to amputations.. furthermore, the wooden leg manufacturer has bought members of congress to pass a law to regulate the flow of cheaper wooden legs from Canada so that the American Wooden Leg Company (here on known as AWLC) will not have to compete through prices.
So now imagine an ingenius design called "the plastic leg!" comes around. Some up and coming prosthetician (word?) has just made the first ever non-breakable, termite resistant, perfectly safe... plastic leg.
Do you think that you will get one?
no... because first it would have to get some sort of safety stamp of approval to be sold in the US (and most foreign markets... except china)... and the only real group that can do this is the APA.
They lose the application in years of beuracracy while congress passes a new tax on plastic... oh and also the young man who invented it is being sued for copyright infringement, since AWLC has bought the rights to the name "plastic leg" years ago.... mainly because they had already thought of it, and thought it better to not make a better solution... because then people would only have to buy it once.. and that did not make the numbers go up.
So then, the government starts subsidizing wooden leg manufacturing warehouses and goes even one step further by incorporating it into their own institutions, like schools, jails, government jobs.... everywhere that they could put a wooden leg, they did.
Then another guy comes along with ... get this.... a fucking graphite leg. Extremely indestructible, waterproof, weighs mere ounces and could come in any color, even with a wood grain finish for those of you still sentimental.
But everyone laughs at him, because everyone knows that the only possible way to fix an amputated leg is with wood.... not some new age metal. The people had been so instilled with the idea that wooden legs were not only the best possible solution... but that it was the only solution...
It could have been due in part to the new rule that the AWLC instituted by measuring all children ages 1-7 for new legs.... just in case they one day need them... and when they get there, their parents are told that their childrens legs might seriously need to come off due to atrophy or RLS... then they are asked if they would liike to buy insurance for their childrens legs... just in case, you never know... because when that fateful day comes, do you really want to be trying to figure out how you can afford 12 or 24 wooden legs a year?

but you know.... as long as that wooden leg keeps us propped up most of the time, we dont need to look at any other alternative solutions... especially ones that could actually prevent people from ever even losing a leg.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7800720 -

YawningAnus said:
but you know.... as long as that wooden leg keeps us propped up most of the time, we dont need to look at any other alternative solutions... especially ones that could actually prevent people from ever even losing a leg.


The thing is, whether your idea of how the health care system works is accurate or not (I'm not saying it's not), you still aren't providing a practical solution to somebody who lost their leg from the knee down.

When you're sitting down with a person who has lost his leg, and you're talking about the APA and how we need to wear super leg-shields to prevent these things from happening in the first place, that person might be waving their wooden leg in the air screaming "preach on brother!" but this isn't solving the problem. When you're done providing mental masturbation to the guy, he will still walk away on a wooden leg. He might resent having to use a wooden leg after you've enlightened him on why he can't run anymore, but you still haven't provided a practical right-now solution to the problem.

My post wasn't intended to say "psychiatry pwnz your face. It's 100% accurate and we should worship it." It was intended to tell the people that can't get around because they refuse to use a wooden leg (refuse to take meds), that while the APA is evil (psychiatry and their theories) and life isn't fair (corporations, power imbalance), the wooden leg (meds) is a viable solution available RIGHT NOW.

Many people think they're being careful or smart by refusing the wooden leg (meds) because they have hope of finding a better, safer, cheaper, less-evil solution (alternative treatments), and don't get me wrong; Many people will benefit from wooden-leg-free (drug-free) treatment, but what about those that don't? Those that sit around reading sites on how unfair life is, and how bad the wooden prosthetic is? They still can't walk.

I know you have rants against psychiatry you want to get out, but rebutting "it's not a viable solution because of this and that" still doesn't provide an alternative solution. And if you think your argument itself IS the solution that when read, heals the "non-existent" mental illnesses, then something seems off, because it doesn't seem to work for the audience I aimed the OP at - those that held that viewpoint already.


--------------------

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7801615 -

When you're mentally ill, like a lot of aspects of life, you have to make a decision between two options and you have to figure out which one is going to suck less.

A lot of people are going to feed you lines about how you can deal with mental illness through therapy, prayer, meditation, and by taking various herbs, vitamins, supplements and amino acids, and by practicing Yoga or similar arts, by changing your diet and various lifestyle changes, and so forth. Well all of those things are really good. I do a lot of those things. Hell, I do most of those things. They are all part of a balanced mental health diet. For some types of mental illness for a lot of people those things alone may be the answer. I'm talking about mild to moderate depression, slight anxiety, moderate compulsions, stuff like that. Not being seriously sick in the head.

Not bipolar disorder.

Not epilepsy.

Not schizophrenia.

Not clinical depression that keeps you in bed staring at the ceiling for weeks at a time.

Not obsessive-compulsive disorder where you're checking to see that the door is locked for half an hour before you can leave your house.

Not anxiety/panic disorder so bad that the physical symptoms are obvious to another person. Or agoraphobia so bad you can't leave your house. Ever.

Not ADD/ADHD where you can't hold a consistent train of thought for longer than 10 seconds and are a serious threat to yourself and others when trying to do anything involving, oh, I don't know, heavy objects or machinery.


This is the beginning of the 21st century, we can't yet cure these illnesses, but we can control and manage them. How far out of the mental health closet you wish to come is up to you, because the stigma is still very real, but family, friends, coworkers, et al. need to know that some mental illnesses aren't just something you can cowboy up about and get over. Your brain is physically injured, and like any other part of the body that has received a physical injury, it needs the proper care to heal.
The problem that far too many people have is that they can't see the injury, therefore it is not a real injury. Well, you can show them similar injuries here http://amenclinics.com/bp/atlas/ . Sure, that's not your injury, . Sure, that's not your injury, unless you get one of those fancy brain scans yourself, but pictures help people understand that many mental illnesses are, in fact, physical illnesses as well. If you're the person with the mental illness and you're trying to get your family and friends to understand why you can't just deal with it and get over it, show them the difference between a normal brain and a brain with whatever it is you have. If you're the family or friends, get some understanding yourself.

The meds are the main part of the treatment. They aren't everything. Just as with a broken leg you need to be taught how to walk with crutches, you still need to do all the other stuff like the talk therapy and the Yoga and the lifestyle changes and the new diet and everything else. But it all starts with the meds. Without the meds you're just going to keep getting worse, no matter how much you delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: Quake3]
    #7802690 -

Quake3 said:
YawningAnus said:
but you know.... as long as that wooden leg keeps us propped up most of the time, we dont need to look at any other alternative solutions... especially ones that could actually prevent people from ever even losing a leg.


The thing is, whether your idea of how the health care system works is accurate or not (I'm not saying it's not), you still aren't providing a practical solution to somebody who lost their leg from the knee down.

When you're sitting down with a person who has lost his leg, and you're talking about the APA and how we need to wear super leg-shields to prevent these things from happening in the first place, that person might be waving their wooden leg in the air screaming "preach on brother!" but this isn't solving the problem. When you're done providing mental masturbation to the guy, he will still walk away on a wooden leg. He might resent having to use a wooden leg after you've enlightened him on why he can't run anymore, but you still haven't provided a practical right-now solution to the problem.

My post wasn't intended to say "psychiatry pwnz your face. It's 100% accurate and we should worship it." It was intended to tell the people that can't get around because they refuse to use a wooden leg (refuse to take meds), that while the APA is evil (psychiatry and their theories) and life isn't fair (corporations, power imbalance), the wooden leg (meds) is a viable solution available RIGHT NOW.

Many people think they're being careful or smart by refusing the wooden leg (meds) because they have hope of finding a better, safer, cheaper, less-evil solution (alternative treatments), and don't get me wrong; Many people will benefit from wooden-leg-free (drug-free) treatment, but what about those that don't? Those that sit around reading sites on how unfair life is, and how bad the wooden prosthetic is? They still can't walk.

I know you have rants against psychiatry you want to get out, but rebutting "it's not a viable solution because of this and that" still doesn't provide an alternative solution. And if you think your argument itself IS the solution that when read, heals the "non-existent" mental illnesses, then something seems off, because it doesn't seem to work for the audience I aimed the OP at - those that held that viewpoint already.



1) taking medication isnt really a solution...
2) by taking medication you are in effect ensuring that no real solution will come about.... what motivation does psychiatry or pharmaceutical manufacturers have to cure the problem?

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: JRayV]
    #7802752 -

JRayV said:
This is the beginning of the 21st century, we can't yet cure these illnesses, but we can control and manage them.


let me stop you right there and ask you where these illnesses came from? have they always been inherent in human genetics? or were people too busy trying to survive hundreds of years ago to sit around feeling depressed?
Why is there a steady increase over the last 20 years of people labelled or diagnosed with mental illness? That calls for a pretty big evolutionary change in such a short time.
is it possible that as our society progresses, and becomes more "civilized" that we move further away from a primal inherent natural order of social interaction, and that this discrepancy between primal human behaviour, which is instinctual/inherent in us, and what our society has deemed the model of normal human behaviour is the root of "mental illnesses"?
do you think that ADHD has become more "prevalent" because kids are learning less primal things at younger and younger ages? for example if you took the same boy and sat him down to teach him calculus and compared his "Attention Span" to when you took him out to teach him how to shoot a gun.... do you think that there would be a difference?

do you think that in the countries where depression is most prevalent (odd how you have to have psychiatrists around to point out your emotional flaws) like USA, UK and Australia pop culture has instilled an unreachable depiction of success and happiness?
Do you think that if we went into some of these primitive tribes that we would find depressed, anxious, or ADD type people?

Quote:
How far out of the mental health closet you wish to come is up to you, because the stigma is still very real, but family, friends, coworkers, et al. need to know that some mental illnesses aren't just something you can cowboy up about and get over. Your brain is physically injured, and like any other part of the body that has received a physical injury, it needs the proper care to heal.


and what heals an injured brain? you mean things like giving methadone to heroin addicts? i bet that really cures up a damaged brain.
you cannot lump physical, objectively observable maladies with abstract, subjective emotional states.
A stroke is a brain injury, depression is an emotional injury.


Quote:
The problem that far too many people have is that they can't see the injury, therefore it is not a real injury. Well, you can show them similar injuries here http://amenclinics.com/bp/atlas/ . Sure, that's not your injury, . Sure, that's not your injury, unless you get one of those fancy brain scans yourself, but pictures help people understand that many mental illnesses are, in fact, physical illnesses as well.


why? because of scanning brain function? is it not possible that someone with "depression" has, like the liver of an alcoholic, been trained to switch into a mode of function most suitable for their most common emotional functioning level?
showing people scans of brain function to "prove" that there is a biophysiological cause to depression is like showing people paintings by monkeys to prove that they have souls.
there is no connection here.... it only shows correlation, and that is not scientific.

Quote:
If you're the person with the mental illness and you're trying to get your family and friends to understand why you can't just deal with it and get over it, show them the difference between a normal brain and a brain with whatever it is you have. If you're the family or friends, get some understanding yourself.



maybe you will answer this question for me... because in the last 3 years, only one other person has actually attempted to answer it and all the rest ignored it or left the thread....
Do you believe that someone (born with all their senses) can be genetically predisposed to enjoying life less than me?

it isnt about cowboying up... it is about really taking a look at your life through an objective lens... not a subjective one.
who the fuck are you to lay around feeling sorry for yourself, unable to get out of bed, when there are people all over this world that are content or even happy that dont even have a bed?
I garauntee you put any "mentally ill" person in a situation where they have to constantly struggle to survive and their "mental illness" will go away in a second.
all these people have made their lives into what they thought was the way to live, but in reality was meaningless shit like business appointments, hair styles, and getting a new car.... they have become enveloped by the day time soap opera that they have built their reality around and they didnt only lose the remote to change the channel, but they forgot they ever had one.
stop living your life subjectively.. meaning, dont try to keep up with the movie stars.... seriously, wake up tomorrow and walk outside and take a deep breath and marvel at the beauty of just plain existence.... then work from there.
dont think "if I only had a million dollars, or a girlfriend, or was highly admired by everyone...." because that is all subjective.... the only thing that is objective is just being and that is what all these "mentally ill" people forgot how to do.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7805641 -

wow... that question has brought more threads to a screeching halt.....

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7809584 -

I want every single one of you guys to know that I will make it publicly or atelast forum wide known that you decided to bitch out of a discussion rather than face the obvious logical rebuttals put forth to you.

i was willing to give the benefit of the doubt for the christmas holidays, but now it has become apparent that you fear me and my arguments.
Either come forth with a rebuttal, or admit withdrawl from your assinine quest to medicate people with dhit they dont need.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7809888 -

I posted a response friday morning. Why did it disappear?

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: JRayV]
    #7814007 -

so post it again..... Im sure it was a user error and it didnt get deleted or something.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7814027 -

There are plenty of studies showing correlations between particular genes and mental illness. These are the same types of correlations that have linked smoking and cancer, although the obvious retort is: "Correlation does not equal causation".

However, a high correlation in a peer-reviewed study is more "evidence" for a genetic predisposition to mental illness than your counterargument of: "I disagree" followed by a link to www.ihatepsychiatry.com.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: badchad]
    #7814555 -

badchad said:
There are plenty of studies showing correlations between particular genes and mental illness.  These are the same types of correlations that have linked smoking and cancer, although the obvious retort is: "Correlation does not equal causation".


funny you use that example because I have a few other threads that go on for a while about the "cancer industry".
why do you refrain from answering my question straight? Do you believe that someone can be genetically predisposed to enjoy life less than me?

Quote:
However, a high correlation in a peer-reviewed study is more "evidence" for a genetic predisposition to mental illness than your counterargument of: "I disagree" followed by a link to www.ihatepsychiatry.com.


well pardon my lack of peer reviewed articles from scientific studies that deal with trying to prove the theory of cephalic destiny wrong.... my government grants havent gone through yet :smile:
What you are effectively saying is a lot like someone having a theological debate with a christian (or any fundamentalist type) who wants to keep holding up the bible and saying "nuh-uh, it says that I am correct in this book".
Not too long ago the NEJM got into some dubious waters when it was found that these articles were written by people with financial ties to the very companies that they were reporting on....
atleast my source is open about its agenda, whereas these peer reviewed articles that you fail to cite or show, dont always disclose their financal backing.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7814661 -

YawningAnus said:
What you are effectively saying is a lot like someone having a theological debate with a christian (or any fundamentalist type) who wants to keep holding up the bible and saying "nuh-uh, it says that I am correct in this book".
Not too long ago the NEJM got into some dubious waters when it was found that these articles were written by people with financial ties to the very companies that they were reporting on....
atleast my source is open about its agenda, whereas these peer reviewed articles that you fail to cite or show, dont always disclose their financal backing.



it's funny because every time someone brings up a source that you are unfamiliar with, you always resort back to this, whining about NEJM's potential incentives. It's a pretty big cop-out for someone who doesn't read ANY medical journals or studies outside of that which supports your own stance.

Instead of just admitting your own lack of knowledge and experience on the subject you pretend to be an expert in.

You constantly refuse to explore your opposition's stance in your eternal quest to be the intern3t debator leetz0r.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7814743 -

well, the reason I have to keep bringing these points back up is because you and everyone else that debates this subject with me ends up running away..... and then a month or so later they post the exact same crap that I had already refuted or poked holes in.

Also, I think this is only the second or third time I have brought this medical journal stuff up.
Does that make it any less credible? I dont get it. instead of debating the issues, you would rather try and go after me.... what is that called? ad hominem!

but no, my shelves are not filled with medical journals... but like I explained before, you dont have to be a mathematician to see that 2+2 doesnt equal 17. I dont need medical knowledge to find the financial ties of FDA advisory panels, or how many deaths a certain drug caused, or to know that correlation doesnt show cause, or to show people how much crap the DSM is.
Im not claiming to be some medical expert... never have.... i even stated it earlier in this thread I believe. But what I can do pretty well is come to a logical, objective conclusion about the fundamental theories that psychiatry is based upon, as well as reveal the pharma oligarchy and all of its sleazy history and present actions.

with that said, I am willing to read anything that you want to present me with that might shut me up.
I am being literal when i say that "every single link, article, or journal that has been posted to refute my position has been summarized as showing correlation, but nonetheless inconclusive".... using such highly scientific words as "which leads us to believe....", and "could possibly...", and "might be due to....".

so, you go on and find me some articles and whatnot on this subject.... Im sure that since you are in school, you have much better access to back issues of medical journals on the internet, because everytime I try to read something beyond the abstract, I am prompted to pay for a pretty hefty subscription.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7814919 -

YawningAnus said:
I really lack any ability to directly address people's rebuttal so i repeat every citation that i've used in many previous threads.




--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7815034 -

LiquidSmoke said:
I am unable to refute even one of the many points you have made. so due to my inability to properly debate I will resort to pee-wee herman retorts and try to dodge all these questions I have no answer for by using ad hominems.


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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7815039 -

oh and could you name one issue that I havent responded to.... and then go and list how almost every single point or question i have made has gone unanswered or even responded to.... in fact, almost everyone that was so adamant in this thread about debating this with me has left once I laid it all out.

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Re: Mental illness? Go get medicated! [Re: bumble]
    #7817272 -

Depression is not the only thing that drugs can help with. ADD and AD/HD people NEED medication to function normally.

No amount of meditation will ever replace the medication these people need.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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