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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Anti-chemical imbalancism is evil
People are quick to drop the "chemical imbalance" mentality and seek alternative, "natural" means to curing their problems. Ironically, while most of us stray away from using pharmaceutical drugs, we don't give a second thought to using unregulated, OTC, or illegal drugs, even though these operate on the same principle (adjusting brain chemistry). My point isn't an argument. I understand that people ultimately seek a longterm solution that doesn't involve drugs daily. LSD and other psychedelics are seen as something you can take a few times that have the potential to cure you permanently. I believe they do. I also believe mindfulness meditation and CBT/ERP/other forms of therapy can also "fix" the problem. I know the majority of people here agree with me.. but here's the kicker: How many of us are actually benefiting from these enough that we feel we are operating at an optimal enough level to not need chronic medication? How long do we usually go before we relapse? Why don't we see pharmaceutical meds as a temporary solution to help us get past a gap, instead of being permanent, because of the majority of people suffering, this is how they will be used. Not everybody remains on medication permanently. The way I see it. Most people (including me), "know" that, say, meditation, can be a great solution to OCD/depression/anxiety and so forth - but if we aren't actually meditating, what drives us to keep using this logic to push away pharmaceutical treatment? I'm just ranting. I'll end it with this: Most people who are depressed have these fantasies of running away, starting a new life, going to live in places like Tibet, India, "nature," etc. This is common in psychiatry and most people suffering from mental illness have this. It's considered a symptom. Anyway, I went ahead with it and left home for six months. What happened? No real difference in mental state. I was happy with the change, but that didn't last. I became even more hopeless. Oddly enough, all drugs being OTC in the place I went, I didn't think twice about trying Zoloft. Results? It worked perfectly. It gave me energy, it diminished anxiety, it made everything interesting and it helped me focus and vastly improved my reading comprehension and attention-span. It felt exactly like a chronic low dose of Ecstasy, but maybe that's how life is normally supposed to feel? I realized that the negative stigma we all create around pharmaceuticals is exactly the same as the negative stigma most people have towards illegal drugs. We see the negative reports, not realizing that for every one case of somebody suffering from a dozen side effects or dying as a result of these drugs, there are countless positive reports. Mental illness usually gets diagnosed after 4-8 years, although that seems to be getting lower as the stigma is reducing gradually. Don't waste your life. If alternative methods work for you: Great! You're fortunate. But keep in mind that time isn't going to wait, and one day you're going to wake up and realize that years have gone by with nothing getting done. Mental illness ruins relationships, school, work, personal hobbies and everything else. Many people you see on TV, your professors, and bright classmates might be taking meds. The negativity is created by you and further instilled in your head because you hang out with similar-minded friends. It's ironic that we think the people who take the meds are sheep. You will always find a reason to justify to yourself that you don't need meds or can't get them now. No insurance, too expensive, side effects, you can fix your probs using other means, the drugs will make you dumb, ruin your memory, etc. This is normal. It's natural and nobody wants to believe they're damaged. Who WANTS medication? See it as a necessity. The bald girl wants thick hair, and Stephen Hawking wants to walk and talk. Likewise, the apathetic man who can barely get anything done and can't concentrate/remember anything in class wants a 4.0 GPA. None of these things will happen no matter how many times these people dream/whine/wish. Getting medicated doesn't turn you into a zombie. It doesn't ruin your memory, nor does it ruin your intelligence. Mental illness does those things. The reason millions of people use these drugs is because pharmaceutical drugs work. Marketing is one thing, but if the drugs didn't work, who the hell would keep taking them? Have faith in people. A man with gangrene in his legs will exhaust every possible route before resorting to amputation. If the alternate routes failed, he can die or go with an amputation. Depression might not kill you (although it'll shave years off your life), but it certainly kills your quality of life. Things to read: Meditation, Medication & The Voyage to Recovery http://www.physics.unc.edu/~atro The Chemical Imbalance in Mental Health Problems - This has a few minor errors (wellbutrin doesn't "block dopamine", it blocks the reuptake of it), but I love how he simplified the action of all the neurotransmitters. http://www.enotalone.com/article --------------------
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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I never thought Zoloft could be that good, this has got me into seriously thinking about getting medicated, not sure I could classify myself as depressed but theres definitely a lack of spark in me. Didnt think meds would do much for me, guess Im just proving how ignorant I am.
Thx for the heads up.
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/99 Posts: 8,946 |
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well i believe that certain illegal chemicals could be very useful in psychedelic psychotherapy in most cases
but i also believe that the drugs are not required, and that certain methods of psychotherapy can be extremely effective if done correctly, with zero aid from any type of medicine or psychoactives and - traditional methods of psychotherapy involving subconcious messages along with hypnotherapy, are as clean as can be if done correctly, and you would not have a single clue what happened to you and your brain i believe that all of those psychiatric medicines in the pharmaceutical world today are practically useless - and on the top of my list for those, are ssri's
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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.. he just gave his personel experience of how much it helped him and then you go and say "i believe that all of those psychiatric medicines in the pharmaceutical world today are practically useless"
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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so what do baldness and being a quadropeligiac have in common with someone being depressed?
I think it is funny that through your entire post you refer to mental disorders as if they are a biologically caused malady. You act as if depression or any "emotional disability" is some extrinsic disease that you can catch or be born with..... mental illness is an intrinsic problem, and it will never be cured by taking drugs..... You seem to think that there is some distinction between someone smoking crack to forget about their life problems and someone taking zoloft to do the same..... I am all for someone taking drugs to get fucked up , but to think that they are going to cure you is just retarded. No one wakes up one day, out of the blue and says "man, Im really depressed" and it is honestly for no reason. Of course someone is going to tell a doctor that it is for no reason when it is something that is probably horribly unethical/illegal/just plain wrong..... it is those skeletons in the closet that you keep ignoring that stack up and you one day find that you are "inexplicably depressed"..... dont you find it funny that the older you get, the more prone you are to having depression? that is because that is what life does to you. All drugs will do is mask the problem.... and of course that is most peoples biggest argument FOR the use of psychopharmaceuticals... because it can make the symptoms (of not enjoying your own life) go away long enough for you to "fix" these problems.... but why do you need to when you have a pill that makes all your worries go away? Then the day comes where you are addicted to that pill, mentally, physically and emotionally, and you realize that you need to get off of it.... then how easy will it be to "fix" your problems as you fight withdrawl? gangrene and anxiety? ... hmmm which one can be scientifically tested? which one is an actual proven biological disorder? which one has objective diagnostic criteria that can be observed by any doctor worth a shit? I think you really need to rethink your entire stance on this and maybe do some research on how the entire industry of inducing paranoia while dangling flashing pictures of people more beautiful than you, having a better time than you, in a place far more sunnier than you makes you think that you arent as happy as you should be. who isnt? show me one person in America that can honestly answer that they are as happy as they could be... that life is as fulfilling as it should be, and that they wake up every single morning as enthused as a 7 year old on christmas. Happiness isnt a default, it isnt garaunteed. You only have the right for the pursuit of happiness. How do you measure happiness? is it not completely subjective? especially here in america, where we are blasted with propaganda to make us think that we know what a happy life looks like, and that we dont have it.... so like a doting mother watching her limp-wristed, uncoordinated, chubby child huff and pant down the basketball court and tells herself that he is benched because the coach hates him, or that his asthma was acting up...... we look for any excuse to shirk responsibility for our present state, and the lie of cephalic destiny is so easily bought into because it does just that.
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/99 Posts: 8,946 |
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yeah, that is only my own opinion, bumble
i have... been on... quite an impressive variety of psychiatric medicines before - i have used my fair share of psychedelics, and narcotics, and alcohol - so ive really been put through the ringer of the psychiatric world and only describe my own opinion from my own experience - i would never, again, use, psychiatric medicine
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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"All drugs will do is mask the problem". They have the potential to but to outright generalize them as doing so is false. They also have the potential to help us cope with and recognize our problems.
It could just be as easily argued that the normal state of life is wrong. We SHOULD wake up every day happy should we not?, you would say no because taking a drug would help us look away and not fix the problem head on but life isnt so simple. You can be physically "perfectly" healthy and still be depressed, then what?. And whos to say you cant take drugs for the rest of your life?. Edited by bumble (12/23/07 07:16 PM)
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Who's to say that we should wake up every morning feeling happy? Is this a rule for such things? How do you determine this SHOULD? The closest thing I could acknowledge as "should" without falling from the area of common sense is what's natural. And from what I know, feeling depressed is as natural as it gets. -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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The point to living is to enjoy ourselves, without happiness life would be meaningless, it really is that simple. Obviously we all want to be happy while exercising good morality.
What is "natural"/normal is far from whats right.
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/99 Posts: 8,946 |
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Quote: i just told you, bumble, read through what i fucking wrote, again
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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different ways to tackle the same problem, some methods will work better with some ppl others it wont, drugs are just another angle to work with, if ppl worked so similar we would have fixed each other long time ago imho
I dont claim to be as knowledgeable as any of you but I believe in what little I know
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: And depression can teach us how to fucking overcome it (responsibly and consciously - which implies NO medication), in order to become yet more happy and aware of our lives and who we are. Depression happens because we refuse to face our problems and from a simple momentarily state of denial and delusion, the situation can intensify really fast and we get to have schizophrenic or bipolar or god knows what else manifestations. So instead of working things out, through reason and taking the time to explore our issues, we medicate ourselves and never get to find out what the fuck is actually wrong with us. Sure, these wonder pills can feel like a gift from heaves compared to the hell that we can go through when in a psychotic episode, but let's keep in mind that they only feel this way compared to the critical state. Quote: It seems to me that for you NATURAL and NORMAL are one and the same thing. Well, I'll have you know that they're not. Normal usually refers to a social/cultural imposed standard (and which usually is affected by negative emotional states and the need to control with the purpose of avoiding fears). This becomes an ARTIFICIAL, illusory way of perceiving life. As opposed to NATURAL. And I'm asking you again, how can you determine what's "right"?
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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So instead of working things out, through reason and taking the time to explore our issues, we medicate ourselves and never get to find out what the fuck is actually wrong with us.
But they also have the potential to help us look into ourselves which I already pointed out.. And I'm asking you again, how can you determine what's "right"? The same way everyone else would, combination of intuition and fact. But your looking for a more specific answer somehow. That would turn this thread into a lengthy S&P debate.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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good point...
I would also like to add this... I wonder why people dont turn the same laughable/skeptic eye to psychiatric medicine that they would to say any other commercial selling a product that promises happiness? The happiness industry is the oldest in the world (prostitution), but it is only fleeting moments of bliss before the glow wears off and you are left with nothing but reality to look at. When I see a Wellbutrin or zyprexa commercial, it looks and sounds the exact same as those commercials pushing cock lengthening pills.
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Then HOW do you explain that a BIG part (and I'm inclined to say the most) of the people who stop the medication get back to being depressed? Some of them even more? Quote: And what would be the problem if it would turn into a lengthy a la P&S debate? By all means, I am not stepping out from that. ![]() Do you, by any chance, refrain yourself from getting into a deep and logical argumentation? If so, I could only deduct the reasons. ![]() Are we not here to set things straight? I find it more important to make THIS particular discussion a very meaningful one because it directly concerns an important matter fro this forum and it's readers. The help and the insight a person in need would get from is tremendous. ![]() Getting back to the subject, can you please exemplify what would that blend between fact and intuition would be? -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/99 Posts: 8,946 |
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bumble, again... the way that i can describe mental illness right now, is to compare the human brain, with a computer... if you get a virus in your computer, you need to get it fixed somehow... another example would be your automobile... you need to get oil changes, new tires, ect., "maintnance"
so, the solution for this, i am going to tell you again, is get, a very talented psycho-therapist whom you trust, to eliminate the virus in your computer-brain, or to give your brain an oil change and a new set of tires, with working on your brain subconsciously... various techniques, one being hypnotherapy, and with all of that done, correctly, the methods are so safe and clean that, you, would not even know, what, happened
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Awesome comparison! I like it. It's like choosing to use the quarantine option from the antivirus instead of using the clean option. ![]() In this case, the quarantine would be the pills and the cleaner would be becoming rational and facing one's problems. -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: I believe that the majority of people who are labeled as "mentally ill" don't need medication and could probably benefit greatly from a life-style change, but that doesn't mean the problem can't be biological. Your logic is binary; All or nothing; But life isn't that simple. It's true that anybody who reads the symptoms for depression will agree that they have it to some degree, but when the depression is severely impacting your life, it's a problem that needs to be addressed. I thought I made it clear in the OP that by "addressed" I mean that it should be handled in whatever way works for the patient. If the dude is severely depressed but finds falling in love, trying LSD, meditating, seeing Fight Club or just going out to meet new people have helped him - GREAT! This dude doesn't need medication. But what if the dude can't fix his problem? He has exhausted every route, or he's just so out of it that he can't even exercise for a week and the only thing everybody tells him is that he's depressed cause his life sucks. Now he is reluctant to take medication, but now what? To me, you sound like you're saying "those that can fix their life on their own deserve to survive, and those that must resort to medication should be left to die off." My view on mental illness changed radically when I went to visit my mom at a Mental Ward. Try going to one and telling the patients there that their problem isn't biological. The point is that it doesn't matter whether the problem is biological, or just due to having a shitty job. Everybody deserves a high quality of life. Obviously, being med-free is better than being on meds, but being med-free, chronically fatigued, unable to concentrate in school or hold down a job, and being unable to socializ is far worse than taking a pill a day, experiencing a headache or diarrhea/constipation once in awhile, but being able to function at your optimal level. Everyone accepts the fact that humans may be born with physical defects, but if the patient can walk and talk, his brain (WAY more complicated than the body) must be working 100% correctly. How do you make sense of this? I think you fail to see that many of our emotions and what drives our daily actions is actually beyond our control. We also know of many infections that can greatly alter our cognitive abilities, judgment and thinking. Read up on Phineas Gage. We know a lot about neurotransmitters and the brain. The more we learn, the more we realize how much stuff is biological - and is it surprising to those of us who aren't religious? --- Dopamine Dopamine in the thinking areas of the brain might be considered the neurotransmitter of focus and attending. Low levels impair our ability to focus on our environment or to "lock on" to tasks, activities, or conversations. Low levels of Dopamine make concentration and focus very difficult with low levels also associated with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). On the other end of the Dopamine dipstick, as Dopamine levels in the brain begin to raise, we become excited/energized, then suspicious and paranoid, then finally hyperstimulated by our environment. With low levels of Dopamine, we can't focus while with high levels of Dopamine our focus becomes narrowed and intense to the point of focusing on everything in our environment as though it were directly related to our situation. Known as an "idea of reference" in psychiatry, we begin thinking unrelated experiences are suddenly directly related to us. People observed talking across the street are now talking about us. As Dopamine increases, it can become so intense that we feel the radio, television, and newspaper contain secret messages directed at us from Hollywood or elsewhere. It's as though we are attempting to incorporate/add everything we witness into our life. Planes flying overhead are snapping pictures of us and motorists talking on cellular phones are calling in a report on us. Our mind speed increases and races in an attempt to add all we see into our life. In an attempt to make sense, we may become extremely religious, paranoid, or feel we are a very important person. Increased Dopamine also increases the perception of our senses, as though turning up the volume in all our senses ¿ hearing, vision, taste, smell, and touch. Norepinephrine Low levels of norepinephrine are associated with a loss of alertness, poor memory, and depression. Norepinephrine appears to be the neurotransmitter of "arousal" and for that reason, lower-than-normal levels of this neurotransmitter produce below-average levels of arousal and interest, a symptom found in several psychiatric conditions including depression and ADHD. It is for this reason that medications for depression and ADHD often target both dopamine and norepinephrine in an attempt to restore both to normal level. Serotonin When Serotonin is low, we experience problems with concentration and attention. We become scatterbrained and poorly organized. Routine responsibilities now seem overwhelming. It takes longer to do things because of poor planning. We lose our car keys and put odd things in the refrigerator. We call people and forget why we called or go to the grocery and forget what we needed. We tell people the same thing two or three times. Like all neurotransmitters, we can have too much Serotonin. While elevated levels of Serotonin produce a sense of well-being, bliss, and "oneness with the universe" --- Quote: There's no withdrawal if you gradually taper off the meds. But you bring up an interesting point. This now becomes more of an ethical issue: What's wrong with remaining on meds forever? Some people don't mind. People take drugs forever for their physical problems anyway. Shouldn't this be the person's choice? Should "healthy" people be allowed to take Ritalin, SSRIs, SNRIs, etc? Nowadays, many people do. It's important to keep in mind that almost everybody experiences depression once in awhile, and especially during puberty and when getting old. This is absolutely normal and part of growing up/life. This isn't something that should be medicated. My post was aimed at the people who have wasted 5 years looking for "alternative medicine" to their problems AND haven't found anything. And yet remain reluctant to try modern medicine simply due to the negative stigma. These people are suffering. If you DO have a chemical imbalance, the drugs make you NORMAL. They let you feel emotions and actually live life. Exercise, meditation, food, sex, relationships, other humans, hobbies all become enjoyable again. If you don't have a chemical imbalance, then you will likely feel drugged up and shouldn't take drugs. Quote: Feeling depressed for a reason is natural. You shouldn't take Paxil just because your GF left you, and meds aren't prescribed for those situations anyway, unless the patient isn't getting help from CBT/ERP/other forms of therapy. There is no "should" or "natural" way to live life. I've visited religious countries and they all drilled it into my head that unless you pray on a regular basis and do a dozen rituals a day, you don't deserve to be happy or content. These people believe that unless you follow their religion, your not living life as you should be and you're wasting your time. This same attitude exists about mental illness and drugs (as well as illegal drugs). Some people feel that being happy 24/7 is a bad thing. They fail to see that other people wouldn't mind a life like this. Others don't mind living a life that to us seems miserable. I know 30 year olds who stay home all day, have very little friends, have never gotten laid and spend all day at work talking to me about how society is stupid and how they're so much more intelligent than the rest of us. And they're perfectly content. They'd never use any drug and they don't want to change. And that's fine. It's their life and they don't need to conform to anybody's standards. Quote: Some people experience depression because they are delusional, yes, but not all depression is caused by this. I've done years of research on schizophrenia and anxiety disorders. We don't know what causes schizophrenia at this moment, but we do know that these are beyond the control of the patient. Schizophrenia shouldn't be compared to a drug trip - the episodes don't teach you anything, and it causes physical brain damage over time. Schizophrenia and Bipolar are SERIOUS conditions and should not be undermined. (the paragraphs on neurotransmitters is from http://www.enotalone.com/article --------------------
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: A virus can be seen as an environmental problem like a bad job, shitty marriage, etc, that is causing the depression. CBT or other therapy would fix this. I agree with you guys. But an exploit could be seen as a genetic or chemical problem. Virus scanners don't fix exploits. To fix an exploit, you need to patch the system. The patch can be seen as medication. Read the link I provided at the end of my long follow up above this. He uses the automobile comparison too. --------------------
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: and I wonder why the people who do, don't turn a laughable/skeptic eye to the insulin diabetics have to inject daily. Those crazy diabetics! They can't handle their problem on their own so they turn to shooting up drugs! They're addicted!
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: The BIOLOGICAL problem of diabetes has been proven. The biological problem of mental illnesses has yet to be proven (if ever )
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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Then HOW do you explain that a BIG part (and I'm inclined to say the most) of the people who stop the medication get back to being depressed? Some of them even more?.
I dont know if any of that is true and if it is just like the recreational drugs I use now some use them just to drift off to happyland while others use it to actively look into themselves to seek out and solve their problems. I think the word ppl use here is introspection. If a doctor just tells a patient to just swallow a pill that might be part of the problem. The doctor doesnt know enough on how to expand from there which of course is reason for concern in itself, why would you take drugs from a doctor who doesnt know enough?, they can still be useful and shouldnt be a reason to shy away but look into it more. Getting back to the subject, can you please exemplify what would that blend between fact and intuition would be? you understood what I said very well
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Im at work right now, So I dont have time to respond to your really long post before, but I will get around to it tomorrow or even late tonight. But as for this quote, you still want to equate a proven biological malady and compare it to something that is still unproven to have any biological causes... as well as comparing something that is a scientifically proven medication for combating a biological malady to a drug that releases enough dopamine in your system so you feel "fucked up" enough to not have to worry about the problem. you are trying to compare something that is objective and scientifically proven to something that is subjective and not scientifically proven.
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/99 Posts: 8,946 |
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Quote: i dont know man, it looks to me like you have completely over-thought the whole, thing things like depression and social anxiety and post tramatic stress disorder and much much more, all, can be fixed, the answers excist by having a psychotherapist who knows what the hell they are doing, to simply "remove" that problem, or virus, from the simplest parts of the human brain... subconsciously, without you even, fucking, realizing it um, it seems, that no one really wants to listen to what i am saying lol so keep on keepin on with those pills, and maybe one day you will wind up on the right couch, with the right proffessional, and watch, as you are one hundred percent unaware, that the therapist, is walking through your brain, subconsciously, cleaning house, in the safest and cleanest and most effective possible way that is known to man good luck everybody gg
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: I pretty much agree with what you said. ![]() Not that it would change anything
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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This is not meant to be an argument from authority, but I have probably read over a thousand clinical studies and meta-analyses regarding the treatment of depression. Antidepressant medications do help some people, but not a clinically significant amount. Pretty much all long term (more than six months) clinical studies of antidepressant medication show little to no improvement compared to a control group.
Behavioral therapies seem to be the most effect treatment for most forms of depression. Unfortunately, finding a good behavioral therapist is going to cost you more time and money than taking pills. If you have a mental illness such as schizophrenia, severe panic attacks with agoraphobia, a brief psychotic episode, etc, then you definitely should consider using medication.
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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Oh... and a "chemical imbalance" is just a slogan used to market antidepressants. If anything, antidepressants CREATE an abnormal brain state.
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Some good points were made.
Quote: I just find that most people who brush off psychiatry don't really know anything about it. It sounds dumb on the surface, making it an easy target, but I find it odd that people can just ignore/throw away decades of research, thinking scientists and doctors haven't given thought to the issues we're bringing up here. Yes, marketing, business and a host of other things do have a MAJOR role, but underneath the bullshit they spew, there's still a repository of valid information. I just feel that many many people ignore modern science just due to our negative stigma about how the world should be. I agree with everyone here that in an ideal world, people wouldn't need drugs, but I also know that the mentality that "all chemicals are bad - natural is ALWAYS better" is widely accepted today. This is the reason everyone buys into the self-help and "natural medicine" quackery in infomercials. * Every emotion and sensation has a chemical composition in the brain. Whether it's ego death, sadness, motivation, attention-span, being in love, wanting to die or feeling fatigue (nonphysical kind), the emotion can be measured. Please understand that I am not saying these feelings are artificial or insignificant, I'm just stating facts. Read the next point. * We know that brain chemistry changes depending on external forces. A 100% healthy person will have low levels of happy chemicals in their brain if they had just experienced something traumatic. Regular meditation can cause profound changes in brain chemistry, and so can one LSD trip, simply by changing our outlook on life. Learning something new can also vastly change our brain chemistry. * There are also things that alter brain chemistry physically. Syphilis and other infections, a head injury, viruses, bad genetics and so forth, for example, can cause feelings of depression or mania, being horny, motor problems, memory loss, etc, depending on what gets damaged in your brain. * No human is born perfect. Every single human has at least some defects. Most of the time, these are very minor; I.e., asymmetrical hands, a genetic predisposition to ingrown nails. Some things are considered "defects" depending on society. We can put these facts together to conclude two things: 1) Some mental illness is caused by external factors. I believe that the majority of it is caused by this. 2) Other mental illness cases are not due to the person's life sucking, but simply to something gone wrong in the brain. A "normal" person who gets hit in the head might no longer be compassionate, or have patience for example (Phineas Gage). There are also a few more important facts: * Medicine is big business. (and we know the nature of business). * We know a lot about the brain, but there are still many things we don't know. We don't know exactly WHY reduced serotonin receptor sites improve mood for instance, nor are we sure why sleep is needed or how memory works exactly. We're getting there. * Every treatment option, natural or not, has pros and cons. Sometimes, the pros heavily outweigh the cons, other times it doesn't. Being that pharmaceuticals are a business, it's obvious they will push to sell anything. I do believe that this needs to change. There are certain conditions that I feel should be more critically analyzed. Particularly ADD, OCD, OCPD, depression and fibromyalgia. I'm not saying these don't exist; Just that they can be tackled with CBT or ERP (therapy) without the need for medication in some-most people. The Internet and technology cause ADD for example. This has been described as "ADD trait" or "NADD - Nerd ADD." OCD and OCPD respond well to ERP treatment, and many forms of depression respond well to CBT, changes in lifestyle, etc. It becomes a problem when people take the fact that medicine is business and that we are still pondering about how the brain works, and turn those into justification for not wanting to take medication. People like that are easily manipulated into falling for another big business: Alternative medicine. It's easy to believe myths like raw veganism being healthy, or "natural" being better than synthetics, even though these are rarely based on sound evidence or facts. It makes me think of people I know who fear vaccination and think they're awesome because they don't take ibuprofen or Advil for a headache. It's almost a trend. Every treatment has cons. These need to be taken into account. For example, taking shrooms once a month fixed most of my problems, but this isn't a viable solution to me and most people. Exercise helps, but are almost impossible for somebody with anxiety, ADD or severe depression to make a daily habit. Mindfulness meditation has helped me tremendously, but has not reduced my problems so much as to not interfere with what I want to do in life. A major side effect of this therapy would be taking 2-3 years off for a retreat. The nature of the treatment needs to be taken into account. Meditation, for example, is great, but is not a viable alternative to medication in most cases unless one goes on 2-3 year retreat. Most people won't or can't do that. Quote: Good points. The reason the medication only works for a small number of people is because the majority of people who are depressed don't have a chemical imbalance. Actually, the OP was targetted at those people. The people who've spent years trying alternative routes with no success, but continue to refuse medication due to its negative stigma. I was hoping to provide motivation to get them to seek professional help. You're right in that the meds may create an imbalance themselves, but this would only happen if you're healthy already (chemically). Using the brain as a car analogy, the meds would be like putting gas into a full tank. The overflow would be the imbalance created by the meds. Therefore, again, medicine should be considered AFTER therapy, to rule out the possibility that the depression is not due to a chemical imbalance. Just from my own observations, I believe that most severe cases of depression are caused by an underlying anxiety. Anxiety is hard to notice, especially because over time, the patient develops rituals or rationalizations for his fears. For example, many depressed people are anti-social. This can be attributed to anxiety, but most of these people will justify it as telling themselves that they are better or more intelligent than most of society. Most people with severe depression also seem to be overly shy, socially inept and rarely in the present moment, thinking about what-ifs and what-could-ofs. Everyone experiences these to some degree, but it tends to greatly interfere with life in somebody with anxiety. When I say "anti-social," I don't mean the trend that it's "cool" to oppose norms and corporations. These people aren't anti-social because they do socialize, albeit amongst themselves or in their own little community, they just have a (IMO) distorted view of reality. What I mean by the term are the people who really cannot socialize. The ones that sit in class quietly and are too nervous to raise their hand even though they know the answer. The ones that nod or shake their head because they're too shy to speak up. The ones that can barely make eye-contact and refuse to do school presentations or work in a place where socializing is necessary (customer service, etc). These people are the ones that need medication if they've tried everything else with no luck, and while they may be diagnosed with depression, I believe that their depression is a symptom of an anxiety disorder. One very important thing I forgot to mention. Many people believe that the psychiatric drugs make you happy. They refuse to get medicated because they would rather feel depressed than to not have emotions (indifferent, numb), or they believe that the meds make you happy 24/7 in any situation. Both these views make the drugs unappealing, but fortunately, they are based on the older psychiatric medications (like Thorazine) that we used to give mental illness patients 30 years ago. Assuming you DO have a chemical imbalance. The drugs don't make you happy at all. They make you normal - the baseline of a healthy person. Things you've previously enjoyed become enjoyable again, but negative situations still make you depressed. I feel that many people view the meds as making you happy in seemingly miserable situations. A sedated guy staring at the wall with a huge smile on his face, even though he's sitting in a knee-high pile of shit and his wife and kids abandoned him. This isn't true. The effects of the drugs is surprisingly subtle, they're almost a placebo compared to weed and are far less "numbing" than a few beers. If your life sucks, you will still be depressed, but the meds will help you better yourself by going to work, getting back into relationships and keeping yourself busy. They stop you from getting irritable and aggressive over minor issues, and give you your energy and motivation back. They remind you why your old hobbies were fun, and you can read a book without having to reread the paragraph 10 times to understand it. I'm sensitive to weed and shrooms, requiring far less to feel effects. The effects themselves don't seem to be altered, but the experience is more enjoyable in a way, sort of like when I first began smoking. It is probably due to a removal of a layer of anxiety underlying most of my previous trips. When I play the piano, I'm a lot more fluent and smooth. I have my libido back. Sex, even just kissing, are no longer a waste of time to me. I'm less irritable and I actually get my work done. I've had a folder with business ideas that I've been meaning to get to for 3 years now. I'm finally going through each one of my projects. Side effects are occasional headaches and changes in appetite. Initially I had bowel problems, but that cleared itself up. It's not really like meth or ecstasy. There's no rush or "speedy" feeling. I can't stress how natural and subtle the effects feel. Mental illness (schizophrenia) runs in my family, so it's likely I do have a chemical imbalance. One thing that disappoints me is how some of my relatives and friends kept scaring me away from pharmaceuticals when I was younger. I feel like so much time was wasted. I wrote the OP in an effort to get people in the situation I was in to consider seeking professional help. The way I'm talking about these drugs now, sounds much like the way we talk to people about illegal drugs. We give them lectures on the pros and cons of weed and LSD, but they're viewpoint is fixed that these cause a plethora of side effects and ethical/social problems. Please keep the debate going. My intention is not to cause an uproar, but simply to get people to share their viewpoints and think. I will eventually put the significant points in the OP so that new readers don't need to go through the entire thread. --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 12/22/07 Posts: 6 Last seen: 16 years, 1 month |
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Quote: same dude. I dont think bumble is full of shit either. Im a computer scientist and by no means an expert on psychosis- but isnt some chronic depression sometimes caused because the brain simply stops producing some chemicals, and isnt that proven? I had friends who were shocked but ended up with psychiatrist even though nothing traumatic happened. Not saying it works for everyone, but how can anyone who hasnt even tried it themselves give a verdict? Even if you have there is no garuntee that its the same for others as well. cool thread guys
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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I'm not going to argue whether or not antidepressant medications are effective, because that issue is still hotly debated within psychology and psychiatry. Enough research could support either opinion.
This chemical imbalance talk is all nonsense, though. Neuroscientists are probably about fifty years away from discovering what a "healthy" brain looks like at the chemical level. Currently, we don't even know how to define "health" in neurological terms, much less chemical terms. Scientists in German recently discovered that a single neuron had enough computational power to make an organism feel pain. The brain is extremely hard to reverse engineer. The serotonin hypothesis of depression has not been proven. Taking GABA supplements lowers levels of serotonin, but it does not make you depressed. (It will make you relaxed, though.) The only reason the serotinin hypothesis exists is because pharmaceutical companies are willing to reason backwards. Their logic is: because certain neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors create a better mood then a low amount of these neurotransmitters must cause a bad mood. This is the same as saying low levels of aspirin in the brain cause headaches.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote:Quote:
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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bump
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: Wow. shows how much you know. -------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Perhaps you would like to elaborate
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: Dopamine and seratonin release in syncrasy? wow that's pretty uhhh....amazing
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: i like how you only ever talk about is ADHD as your primary tool to discredit an entire field which you hardly know anything about. In fact, in almost every single mental illness debate you've ever involved yourself in, you've always had to revert to "ADHD as an example" instead of "ADHD as the best example i can think of". -------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: I'm sure that's what's keeping you from making a proper argumentation
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: I agree that we still don't have a perfect view of the brain (not even close), and yes, the serotonin hypothesis hasn't been proven (neither have many many things, but we can deduct theories, this is the nature of science - we still don't even know if saturated fat is bad for you, nor why we sleep). Blocking the reuptake of serotonin eventually causes your brain to create less serotonin receptors, and this increases mood. Why? We don't know. We also don't really understand how/why other neurotransmitters play a major role in overall "mood" (ambiguous) too. But this is irreverent to my point. Whether or not serotonin is proven to do anything doesn't make much of a difference to most people who ARE suffering from a depression that isn't responding to any other form of treatment. For example, schizophrenia is a serious mental illness, and one of the most effective treatments is blocking the high levels of dopamine commonly seen in patients. The high levels of dopamine can be a symptom of the schizophrenia, caused by something else, but so what? What are we supposed to do until we advance further into the brain to determine the root cause of the problem (which can very well be external, the illness being caused by a virus is still a very prominent theory)? Under your logic, we wouldn't give patients atypical antipsychotics because we're not sure of the true cause of schizophrenia. Using the 'fat' example I mentioned above, our only theory that saturated fat and high levels of cholesterol cause heart disease is because most people with heart problems have high levels of cholesterol. This is working backwards (most science is), and seems logical and simple, except that some things don't make sense. Why is heart disease non-existent in places where people only eat high fat diets? One theory is that cholesterol is released by the body to repair damage done to arteries by free radicals. The debate is big and ongoing, but until we figure it out, people are dying, so our best effort right now would be to get people to reduce their cholesterol intake, because this seems to help. It's not an "all or nothing" scenario: This either works 100% or you shouldn't take it. We have compromises (low doses of meds + therapy for instance). You both present your viewpoints, but neither of you have a solution to the problem. I've been very critically keeping up with psychiatry for close to a decade now, and months ago, I would have been in this thread typing out exactly what you guys are replying. My viewpoint changed after I stopped being stubborn (not saying any of you are, but I was), dropped my assumptions about science and psychiatry, and began to really research genetics and neuroscience. I read journals, took classes and I read arguments pro/anti medication. I was in awe at how far we've come in the last 10 years, and how wrong I was to make assumptions that mental illness patients were idiotic and should just get over their problems using exercise and an acid trip. I actually visited hospitals and saw these people first hand. Many of the anti-drug arguments are good and are still valid today, but most people don't realize that the (numerous) cons of the drugs doesn't outweigh the cons people experience from their problem. Medication is a huge blessing to these people. Do you guys remember 'farm colonies'? Research 'Pilgrim State' - This is how we used to treat mental illness patients before medication became a viable solution. My intention wasn't to start an argument for/pro psychiatry. My original post was targeted at a very specific group of people. Those that are facing serious problems and a piss-poor quality of life due to a mental illness that they refuse to seek professional treatment for simply due to a negative stigma about meds. I am assuming that these people have exhausted every other means of treatment (feasible to them) without much success. For those that got over their problems using drug-free methods, awesome! Share your experience (in another thread!) and help people go your route. People suffering do seek such threads for motivation and insights. The reason drugs are so popular and widely used today is not just due to the fact that they bring in lots of money, but because there is currently no practical solution to the problem (again - doesn't apply to everyone, see paragraph above). They might not be perfect, and I believe that in the coming decades, their use will decline as we uncover more about the brain, but until then, millions of people deserve a standard quality of life. Mental illness occurs in every society in every part of the world. There's no doubting that many cases are caused by at least some physical problem, but I don't necessarily believe that the physical problem of mental illness is simply tied to crappy regulation of neurotransmitters. I believe that severe cases of mental illness that don't resolve on their own and don't respond to drug-free treatment might be caused by a physical problem, which in turn causes the messed up levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. The physical problem might just be a defect or chronic condition that is hard to detect, or due to something external such as a virus or an infection. For instance, sleep apnea is sometimes hard to detect, especially when the person doesn't snore and doesn't wake up repeatedly in the middle of the night (those are the most common symptoms). The subject may simply not be getting the amount of REM required for the benefits of sleep. This can result in waking up feeling exhausted, chronic fatigue, inability to concentrate, and so forth; Very common symptoms of depression. This itself makes the subject depressed and that shows up on scans as a chemical imbalance. What would happen in this case? The subject would be given antidepressants, and might or might not respond well to it, being that the medication isn't targeting the root of the problem. Sleep apnea is just one of countless "real" physical problems that can result in a chemical imbalance. Or maybe a temporary physical problem results in depression which feeds on itself, causing more physical problems (i.e., patient gets a virus that causes brain damage/depression. Body fights it off, but during the depression, patient gained 50lb, now patient has sleep apnea and that keeps the depression going). That's my take on it. Most mental illness can be taken care of in CBT and other forms of therapy (ERP is gaining ground too), some others require self-exploration and development of good habits, or simply adopting a better view of reality, but the minority of people who aren't responding well to the first two should seek medicine - but only IF their problem is having a major impact on their life: If it's ruining their marriage, making them lose their job, etc, then it's a waste of time not to take meds IMO. This is after you have tried the drug-free treatments and have gotten yourself physically checked up for common things that can cause your mental illness (paying close attention to every symptom helps). It's my hope that people will use the meds only as support to help them through other forms of treatment. For example, combining low doses of benzos with meditation to ease anxiety - as in the first link I posted in the OP. I see current psychiatric meds as being cure-alls the same way opiates and amphetamine were once prescribed for everything. Maybe tomorrow, we'll have a breakthrough discovery that instantly renders the pills obsolete and out of the clinic - we're getting there, Neuroplasticity is picking up ground - but as of right now, they remain a solution for those that need help. Anyway - (1 minute belated) MERRY CHRISTMAS! <3 <3 <3
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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Quote: Umm, no. I began my last post by stating that I would not debate the effectiveness of reuptake inhibitors as a treatment for depression. Under my logic, we would not say that schizophrenia is caused by a "chemical imbalance" because second generation antipsychotics modulate dopamine receptors. Whether or not using atypical antipsychotics are an effective treatment is a totally different issue. Etiology and treatment are two distinct things. Quote: So? That is not reasoning backwards. Saturated fat and cholesterol form plaques. Quote: Reasoning backwards is a logical fallacy that has no place in science. Quote: I presented an empirically based solution to the problem in my first post.
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? Registered: 06/22/05 Posts: 3,595 Loc: |
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Quote: In a brave new world...
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: I just want you to show me any study that shows that due to psychiatry mental abberation/disease has been effectively decreased.... OR! name anything that psychiatry has been able to rid mankind of to such a degree that we no longer have to ever worry about it again..... that should be pretty easy... right? just one thing that you can show me and say "look, here it proves that psychiatry has had a positive impact upon our society". I know that "positive" is subjective, but I think it would be pretty easy to make an unbiased, american ideals, concept of what a positive step would be.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: well, while I sat in school and watched as almost every single one of my friends was put on amphetamines, and also when in 6th grade my mother was threatened to be tried as a neglectful parent because she refused to put me on Ritalin.... yeah, I would say that it was a pretty good catalyst for me learning a good bit about it. From that, I have witnessed the boom of the pharmaceutical industry and been able to apply a skeptical eye to it. I will admit that when it comes to pharmacology, you know way more than me.... but Im not ever debating the mechanics of pharmacology unless I am showing the difference between amphetamine salts and methamphatamines.... what I have debated so far in this forum deals with aspets of politics, finances, lobbying, crimes, history and that the entire theory of psychiatry is fundamentally flawed. how come no one has been able to shut me up? all it takes is just one time and then you can just keep quoting it every time a new debate like this comes up.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: how are we supposed to find a solution if the pharmaceutical industry squashes anything that tries to compete? If you want to get all "everyone deserves the right to be happy".... then what they are doing is unethical in a larger scope. imagine that you lost your leg from the knee down. Now scientists have dilligently worked for the last 50 years to give you...... "A WOODEN LEG!". Now, it does solve the immediate problem of levelling you out and helping you get short distances.... but it breaks about every month and you have to go back and buy a new one. Now, since the American Prosthetics Association has been basically bought by this wooden leg manufacturer, they entered into a mutually beneficial position... kind of like 69 if you are following me here. By ensuring that the APA has accreditation approval for anyone else that would like to try and make a better solution to amputations.. furthermore, the wooden leg manufacturer has bought members of congress to pass a law to regulate the flow of cheaper wooden legs from Canada so that the American Wooden Leg Company (here on known as AWLC) will not have to compete through prices. So now imagine an ingenius design called "the plastic leg!" comes around. Some up and coming prosthetician (word?) has just made the first ever non-breakable, termite resistant, perfectly safe... plastic leg. Do you think that you will get one? no... because first it would have to get some sort of safety stamp of approval to be sold in the US (and most foreign markets... except china)... and the only real group that can do this is the APA. They lose the application in years of beuracracy while congress passes a new tax on plastic... oh and also the young man who invented it is being sued for copyright infringement, since AWLC has bought the rights to the name "plastic leg" years ago.... mainly because they had already thought of it, and thought it better to not make a better solution... because then people would only have to buy it once.. and that did not make the numbers go up. So then, the government starts subsidizing wooden leg manufacturing warehouses and goes even one step further by incorporating it into their own institutions, like schools, jails, government jobs.... everywhere that they could put a wooden leg, they did. Then another guy comes along with ... get this.... a fucking graphite leg. Extremely indestructible, waterproof, weighs mere ounces and could come in any color, even with a wood grain finish for those of you still sentimental. But everyone laughs at him, because everyone knows that the only possible way to fix an amputated leg is with wood.... not some new age metal. The people had been so instilled with the idea that wooden legs were not only the best possible solution... but that it was the only solution... It could have been due in part to the new rule that the AWLC instituted by measuring all children ages 1-7 for new legs.... just in case they one day need them... and when they get there, their parents are told that their childrens legs might seriously need to come off due to atrophy or RLS... then they are asked if they would liike to buy insurance for their childrens legs... just in case, you never know... because when that fateful day comes, do you really want to be trying to figure out how you can afford 12 or 24 wooden legs a year? but you know.... as long as that wooden leg keeps us propped up most of the time, we dont need to look at any other alternative solutions... especially ones that could actually prevent people from ever even losing a leg.
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: The thing is, whether your idea of how the health care system works is accurate or not (I'm not saying it's not), you still aren't providing a practical solution to somebody who lost their leg from the knee down. When you're sitting down with a person who has lost his leg, and you're talking about the APA and how we need to wear super leg-shields to prevent these things from happening in the first place, that person might be waving their wooden leg in the air screaming "preach on brother!" but this isn't solving the problem. When you're done providing mental masturbation to the guy, he will still walk away on a wooden leg. He might resent having to use a wooden leg after you've enlightened him on why he can't run anymore, but you still haven't provided a practical right-now solution to the problem. My post wasn't intended to say "psychiatry pwnz your face. It's 100% accurate and we should worship it." It was intended to tell the people that can't get around because they refuse to use a wooden leg (refuse to take meds), that while the APA is evil (psychiatry and their theories) and life isn't fair (corporations, power imbalance), the wooden leg (meds) is a viable solution available RIGHT NOW. Many people think they're being careful or smart by refusing the wooden leg (meds) because they have hope of finding a better, safer, cheaper, less-evil solution (alternative treatments), and don't get me wrong; Many people will benefit from wooden-leg-free (drug-free) treatment, but what about those that don't? Those that sit around reading sites on how unfair life is, and how bad the wooden prosthetic is? They still can't walk. I know you have rants against psychiatry you want to get out, but rebutting "it's not a viable solution because of this and that" still doesn't provide an alternative solution. And if you think your argument itself IS the solution that when read, heals the "non-existent" mental illnesses, then something seems off, because it doesn't seem to work for the audience I aimed the OP at - those that held that viewpoint already. --------------------
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former guy on couch Registered: 10/20/06 Posts: 818 Loc: l |
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When you're mentally ill, like a lot of aspects of life, you have to make a decision between two options and you have to figure out which one is going to suck less.
A lot of people are going to feed you lines about how you can deal with mental illness through therapy, prayer, meditation, and by taking various herbs, vitamins, supplements and amino acids, and by practicing Yoga or similar arts, by changing your diet and various lifestyle changes, and so forth. Well all of those things are really good. I do a lot of those things. Hell, I do most of those things. They are all part of a balanced mental health diet. For some types of mental illness for a lot of people those things alone may be the answer. I'm talking about mild to moderate depression, slight anxiety, moderate compulsions, stuff like that. Not being seriously sick in the head. Not bipolar disorder. Not epilepsy. Not schizophrenia. Not clinical depression that keeps you in bed staring at the ceiling for weeks at a time. Not obsessive-compulsive disorder where you're checking to see that the door is locked for half an hour before you can leave your house. Not anxiety/panic disorder so bad that the physical symptoms are obvious to another person. Or agoraphobia so bad you can't leave your house. Ever. Not ADD/ADHD where you can't hold a consistent train of thought for longer than 10 seconds and are a serious threat to yourself and others when trying to do anything involving, oh, I don't know, heavy objects or machinery. This is the beginning of the 21st century, we can't yet cure these illnesses, but we can control and manage them. How far out of the mental health closet you wish to come is up to you, because the stigma is still very real, but family, friends, coworkers, et al. need to know that some mental illnesses aren't just something you can cowboy up about and get over. Your brain is physically injured, and like any other part of the body that has received a physical injury, it needs the proper care to heal. The problem that far too many people have is that they can't see the injury, therefore it is not a real injury. Well, you can show them similar injuries here http://amenclinics.com/bp/atlas/ The meds are the main part of the treatment. They aren't everything. Just as with a broken leg you need to be taught how to walk with crutches, you still need to do all the other stuff like the talk therapy and the Yoga and the lifestyle changes and the new diet and everything else. But it all starts with the meds. Without the meds you're just going to keep getting worse, no matter how much you delude yourself into thinking otherwise.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: 1) taking medication isnt really a solution... 2) by taking medication you are in effect ensuring that no real solution will come about.... what motivation does psychiatry or pharmaceutical manufacturers have to cure the problem?
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: let me stop you right there and ask you where these illnesses came from? have they always been inherent in human genetics? or were people too busy trying to survive hundreds of years ago to sit around feeling depressed? Why is there a steady increase over the last 20 years of people labelled or diagnosed with mental illness? That calls for a pretty big evolutionary change in such a short time. is it possible that as our society progresses, and becomes more "civilized" that we move further away from a primal inherent natural order of social interaction, and that this discrepancy between primal human behaviour, which is instinctual/inherent in us, and what our society has deemed the model of normal human behaviour is the root of "mental illnesses"? do you think that ADHD has become more "prevalent" because kids are learning less primal things at younger and younger ages? for example if you took the same boy and sat him down to teach him calculus and compared his "Attention Span" to when you took him out to teach him how to shoot a gun.... do you think that there would be a difference? do you think that in the countries where depression is most prevalent (odd how you have to have psychiatrists around to point out your emotional flaws) like USA, UK and Australia pop culture has instilled an unreachable depiction of success and happiness? Do you think that if we went into some of these primitive tribes that we would find depressed, anxious, or ADD type people? Quote: and what heals an injured brain? you mean things like giving methadone to heroin addicts? i bet that really cures up a damaged brain. you cannot lump physical, objectively observable maladies with abstract, subjective emotional states. A stroke is a brain injury, depression is an emotional injury. Quote: why? because of scanning brain function? is it not possible that someone with "depression" has, like the liver of an alcoholic, been trained to switch into a mode of function most suitable for their most common emotional functioning level? showing people scans of brain function to "prove" that there is a biophysiological cause to depression is like showing people paintings by monkeys to prove that they have souls. there is no connection here.... it only shows correlation, and that is not scientific. Quote: maybe you will answer this question for me... because in the last 3 years, only one other person has actually attempted to answer it and all the rest ignored it or left the thread.... Do you believe that someone (born with all their senses) can be genetically predisposed to enjoying life less than me? it isnt about cowboying up... it is about really taking a look at your life through an objective lens... not a subjective one. who the fuck are you to lay around feeling sorry for yourself, unable to get out of bed, when there are people all over this world that are content or even happy that dont even have a bed? I garauntee you put any "mentally ill" person in a situation where they have to constantly struggle to survive and their "mental illness" will go away in a second. all these people have made their lives into what they thought was the way to live, but in reality was meaningless shit like business appointments, hair styles, and getting a new car.... they have become enveloped by the day time soap opera that they have built their reality around and they didnt only lose the remote to change the channel, but they forgot they ever had one. stop living your life subjectively.. meaning, dont try to keep up with the movie stars.... seriously, wake up tomorrow and walk outside and take a deep breath and marvel at the beauty of just plain existence.... then work from there. dont think "if I only had a million dollars, or a girlfriend, or was highly admired by everyone...." because that is all subjective.... the only thing that is objective is just being and that is what all these "mentally ill" people forgot how to do.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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wow... that question has brought more threads to a screeching halt.....
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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I want every single one of you guys to know that I will make it publicly or atelast forum wide known that you decided to bitch out of a discussion rather than face the obvious logical rebuttals put forth to you.
i was willing to give the benefit of the doubt for the christmas holidays, but now it has become apparent that you fear me and my arguments. Either come forth with a rebuttal, or admit withdrawl from your assinine quest to medicate people with dhit they dont need.
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former guy on couch Registered: 10/20/06 Posts: 818 Loc: l |
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I posted a response friday morning. Why did it disappear?
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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so post it again..... Im sure it was a user error and it didnt get deleted or something.
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Mad Scientist Registered: 03/02/05 Posts: 13,372 |
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There are plenty of studies showing correlations between particular genes and mental illness. These are the same types of correlations that have linked smoking and cancer, although the obvious retort is: "Correlation does not equal causation".
However, a high correlation in a peer-reviewed study is more "evidence" for a genetic predisposition to mental illness than your counterargument of: "I disagree" followed by a link to www.ihatepsychiatry.com. -------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: funny you use that example because I have a few other threads that go on for a while about the "cancer industry". why do you refrain from answering my question straight? Do you believe that someone can be genetically predisposed to enjoy life less than me? Quote: well pardon my lack of peer reviewed articles from scientific studies that deal with trying to prove the theory of cephalic destiny wrong.... my government grants havent gone through yet ![]() What you are effectively saying is a lot like someone having a theological debate with a christian (or any fundamentalist type) who wants to keep holding up the bible and saying "nuh-uh, it says that I am correct in this book". Not too long ago the NEJM got into some dubious waters when it was found that these articles were written by people with financial ties to the very companies that they were reporting on.... atleast my source is open about its agenda, whereas these peer reviewed articles that you fail to cite or show, dont always disclose their financal backing.
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: it's funny because every time someone brings up a source that you are unfamiliar with, you always resort back to this, whining about NEJM's potential incentives. It's a pretty big cop-out for someone who doesn't read ANY medical journals or studies outside of that which supports your own stance. Instead of just admitting your own lack of knowledge and experience on the subject you pretend to be an expert in. You constantly refuse to explore your opposition's stance in your eternal quest to be the intern3t debator leetz0r. -------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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well, the reason I have to keep bringing these points back up is because you and everyone else that debates this subject with me ends up running away..... and then a month or so later they post the exact same crap that I had already refuted or poked holes in.
Also, I think this is only the second or third time I have brought this medical journal stuff up. Does that make it any less credible? I dont get it. instead of debating the issues, you would rather try and go after me.... what is that called? ad hominem! but no, my shelves are not filled with medical journals... but like I explained before, you dont have to be a mathematician to see that 2+2 doesnt equal 17. I dont need medical knowledge to find the financial ties of FDA advisory panels, or how many deaths a certain drug caused, or to know that correlation doesnt show cause, or to show people how much crap the DSM is. Im not claiming to be some medical expert... never have.... i even stated it earlier in this thread I believe. But what I can do pretty well is come to a logical, objective conclusion about the fundamental theories that psychiatry is based upon, as well as reveal the pharma oligarchy and all of its sleazy history and present actions. with that said, I am willing to read anything that you want to present me with that might shut me up. I am being literal when i say that "every single link, article, or journal that has been posted to refute my position has been summarized as showing correlation, but nonetheless inconclusive".... using such highly scientific words as "which leads us to believe....", and "could possibly...", and "might be due to....". so, you go on and find me some articles and whatnot on this subject.... Im sure that since you are in school, you have much better access to back issues of medical journals on the internet, because everytime I try to read something beyond the abstract, I am prompted to pay for a pretty hefty subscription.
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: -------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote:
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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oh and could you name one issue that I havent responded to.... and then go and list how almost every single point or question i have made has gone unanswered or even responded to.... in fact, almost everyone that was so adamant in this thread about debating this with me has left once I laid it all out.
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GrandPaw Registered: 07/01/03 Posts: 16,291 Loc: |
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Depression is not the only thing that drugs can help with. ADD and AD/HD people NEED medication to function normally.
No amount of meditation will ever replace the medication these people need. --------------------
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Of course, they have to be just like everybody else in order to be considered healthy.
![]() Quote: Yeah sure, why choose self education when you have a miracle pill? Why choose truth when you have religion? Why actually solve something in your life when you can always lie to yourself?
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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GrandPaw Registered: 07/01/03 Posts: 16,291 Loc: |
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Quote: You obviously don't know what the F you are talking about. Do you know anyone with ADD or AD/HD? Have you ever seen them try to function without their meds? I have. My wife suffered for 40 years before she got help for her condition....now her life is better than ever. Could she function normally before the meds........sort of. Now that she is taking Vyvanse her ability to function normally is GREATLY improved. Some meds are needed for a normal existance...........period.
--------------------
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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"A gramme is better than a damn."
- Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, Ch. 6 ![]() Quote: Those two were a response to you.... the rest are just for fun.... throwing them out there in a general sense. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote:
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NeuroticPsychona Registered: 08/29/04 Posts: 2,194 Loc: U.S. |
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Stranger Registered: 08/02/11 Posts: 1 Last seen: 12 years, 5 months |
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I know this thread is old as hell, but i stumbled across this thread and your rants really pissed me off
Do you believe that someone (born with all their senses) can be genetically predisposed to enjoying life less than me? The answer is yes http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/0 As someone who has suffered from anxiety and depression, i'm not upset about my life, shit happens and you move on, whats fucks me off is the physical manifestations, feeling depersonalized, constant light headedness and a numbing, not being able to enjoy things i once enjoyed for fuck knows whatever reason. Sometimes long after a stressor has been dealt with, the stress system is still out of whack, which has been proven that the HPA axis is out of whack in people in depression, anxiety, ptsd etc You can argue whether or not the imbalance is bought about by a stressor or if the imbalance is a genetic abnormality but it's moot, sometimes to fix the problems and get on in your life you need medication to correct that imbalance.
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Blessed Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 27,785 Loc: In a Tree |
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Quote: Hey, n00bie, you are aware that inherent chemical imbalances exist, right? And that the result is mental disorders? You are aware of this? Now, don't MISREAD what I said. Not all mental disorders are chemical imbalances. But inherent chemical imbalances do exist, and they often result in mental disorders or in symptoms that lead doctors to beleive mental disorders may be present. So please don't criticise his blanket statement, and then make an equally ignorant blanket statement of your own. It makes you look silly.
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Blessed Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 27,785 Loc: In a Tree |
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GODDAMNIT. I didnt relaize this thread was so old.
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Blessed Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 27,785 Loc: In a Tree |
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Quote: And since i'm rambling in this thread - i'll go ahead and back up the long-lost Niteowl in saying that I -- like his wife -- have a complete fucking inability to sit the fuck still. I move all the goddamn time. FOr the past 8 yeras i've been smoking all day/every day in order to self-medicate this. Now ive stoppedsmoking and re-acknowledged the extent of my problem. I'll be seeing a counselor ---> psychiatrist shortly, once i get my insurance back.
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If so, I could only deduct the reasons. 






