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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: and I wonder why the people who do, don't turn a laughable/skeptic eye to the insulin diabetics have to inject daily. Those crazy diabetics! They can't handle their problem on their own so they turn to shooting up drugs! They're addicted!
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: The BIOLOGICAL problem of diabetes has been proven. The biological problem of mental illnesses has yet to be proven (if ever )
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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homunculus ![]() Registered: 09/13/06 Posts: 160 |
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Then HOW do you explain that a BIG part (and I'm inclined to say the most) of the people who stop the medication get back to being depressed? Some of them even more?.
I dont know if any of that is true and if it is just like the recreational drugs I use now some use them just to drift off to happyland while others use it to actively look into themselves to seek out and solve their problems. I think the word ppl use here is introspection. If a doctor just tells a patient to just swallow a pill that might be part of the problem. The doctor doesnt know enough on how to expand from there which of course is reason for concern in itself, why would you take drugs from a doctor who doesnt know enough?, they can still be useful and shouldnt be a reason to shy away but look into it more. Getting back to the subject, can you please exemplify what would that blend between fact and intuition would be? you understood what I said very well
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Im at work right now, So I dont have time to respond to your really long post before, but I will get around to it tomorrow or even late tonight. But as for this quote, you still want to equate a proven biological malady and compare it to something that is still unproven to have any biological causes... as well as comparing something that is a scientifically proven medication for combating a biological malady to a drug that releases enough dopamine in your system so you feel "fucked up" enough to not have to worry about the problem. you are trying to compare something that is objective and scientifically proven to something that is subjective and not scientifically proven.
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/99 Posts: 8,946 |
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Quote: i dont know man, it looks to me like you have completely over-thought the whole, thing things like depression and social anxiety and post tramatic stress disorder and much much more, all, can be fixed, the answers excist by having a psychotherapist who knows what the hell they are doing, to simply "remove" that problem, or virus, from the simplest parts of the human brain... subconsciously, without you even, fucking, realizing it um, it seems, that no one really wants to listen to what i am saying lol so keep on keepin on with those pills, and maybe one day you will wind up on the right couch, with the right proffessional, and watch, as you are one hundred percent unaware, that the therapist, is walking through your brain, subconsciously, cleaning house, in the safest and cleanest and most effective possible way that is known to man good luck everybody gg
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: I pretty much agree with what you said. ![]() Not that it would change anything
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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This is not meant to be an argument from authority, but I have probably read over a thousand clinical studies and meta-analyses regarding the treatment of depression. Antidepressant medications do help some people, but not a clinically significant amount. Pretty much all long term (more than six months) clinical studies of antidepressant medication show little to no improvement compared to a control group.
Behavioral therapies seem to be the most effect treatment for most forms of depression. Unfortunately, finding a good behavioral therapist is going to cost you more time and money than taking pills. If you have a mental illness such as schizophrenia, severe panic attacks with agoraphobia, a brief psychotic episode, etc, then you definitely should consider using medication.
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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Oh... and a "chemical imbalance" is just a slogan used to market antidepressants. If anything, antidepressants CREATE an abnormal brain state.
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Some good points were made.
Quote: I just find that most people who brush off psychiatry don't really know anything about it. It sounds dumb on the surface, making it an easy target, but I find it odd that people can just ignore/throw away decades of research, thinking scientists and doctors haven't given thought to the issues we're bringing up here. Yes, marketing, business and a host of other things do have a MAJOR role, but underneath the bullshit they spew, there's still a repository of valid information. I just feel that many many people ignore modern science just due to our negative stigma about how the world should be. I agree with everyone here that in an ideal world, people wouldn't need drugs, but I also know that the mentality that "all chemicals are bad - natural is ALWAYS better" is widely accepted today. This is the reason everyone buys into the self-help and "natural medicine" quackery in infomercials. * Every emotion and sensation has a chemical composition in the brain. Whether it's ego death, sadness, motivation, attention-span, being in love, wanting to die or feeling fatigue (nonphysical kind), the emotion can be measured. Please understand that I am not saying these feelings are artificial or insignificant, I'm just stating facts. Read the next point. * We know that brain chemistry changes depending on external forces. A 100% healthy person will have low levels of happy chemicals in their brain if they had just experienced something traumatic. Regular meditation can cause profound changes in brain chemistry, and so can one LSD trip, simply by changing our outlook on life. Learning something new can also vastly change our brain chemistry. * There are also things that alter brain chemistry physically. Syphilis and other infections, a head injury, viruses, bad genetics and so forth, for example, can cause feelings of depression or mania, being horny, motor problems, memory loss, etc, depending on what gets damaged in your brain. * No human is born perfect. Every single human has at least some defects. Most of the time, these are very minor; I.e., asymmetrical hands, a genetic predisposition to ingrown nails. Some things are considered "defects" depending on society. We can put these facts together to conclude two things: 1) Some mental illness is caused by external factors. I believe that the majority of it is caused by this. 2) Other mental illness cases are not due to the person's life sucking, but simply to something gone wrong in the brain. A "normal" person who gets hit in the head might no longer be compassionate, or have patience for example (Phineas Gage). There are also a few more important facts: * Medicine is big business. (and we know the nature of business). * We know a lot about the brain, but there are still many things we don't know. We don't know exactly WHY reduced serotonin receptor sites improve mood for instance, nor are we sure why sleep is needed or how memory works exactly. We're getting there. * Every treatment option, natural or not, has pros and cons. Sometimes, the pros heavily outweigh the cons, other times it doesn't. Being that pharmaceuticals are a business, it's obvious they will push to sell anything. I do believe that this needs to change. There are certain conditions that I feel should be more critically analyzed. Particularly ADD, OCD, OCPD, depression and fibromyalgia. I'm not saying these don't exist; Just that they can be tackled with CBT or ERP (therapy) without the need for medication in some-most people. The Internet and technology cause ADD for example. This has been described as "ADD trait" or "NADD - Nerd ADD." OCD and OCPD respond well to ERP treatment, and many forms of depression respond well to CBT, changes in lifestyle, etc. It becomes a problem when people take the fact that medicine is business and that we are still pondering about how the brain works, and turn those into justification for not wanting to take medication. People like that are easily manipulated into falling for another big business: Alternative medicine. It's easy to believe myths like raw veganism being healthy, or "natural" being better than synthetics, even though these are rarely based on sound evidence or facts. It makes me think of people I know who fear vaccination and think they're awesome because they don't take ibuprofen or Advil for a headache. It's almost a trend. Every treatment has cons. These need to be taken into account. For example, taking shrooms once a month fixed most of my problems, but this isn't a viable solution to me and most people. Exercise helps, but are almost impossible for somebody with anxiety, ADD or severe depression to make a daily habit. Mindfulness meditation has helped me tremendously, but has not reduced my problems so much as to not interfere with what I want to do in life. A major side effect of this therapy would be taking 2-3 years off for a retreat. The nature of the treatment needs to be taken into account. Meditation, for example, is great, but is not a viable alternative to medication in most cases unless one goes on 2-3 year retreat. Most people won't or can't do that. Quote: Good points. The reason the medication only works for a small number of people is because the majority of people who are depressed don't have a chemical imbalance. Actually, the OP was targetted at those people. The people who've spent years trying alternative routes with no success, but continue to refuse medication due to its negative stigma. I was hoping to provide motivation to get them to seek professional help. You're right in that the meds may create an imbalance themselves, but this would only happen if you're healthy already (chemically). Using the brain as a car analogy, the meds would be like putting gas into a full tank. The overflow would be the imbalance created by the meds. Therefore, again, medicine should be considered AFTER therapy, to rule out the possibility that the depression is not due to a chemical imbalance. Just from my own observations, I believe that most severe cases of depression are caused by an underlying anxiety. Anxiety is hard to notice, especially because over time, the patient develops rituals or rationalizations for his fears. For example, many depressed people are anti-social. This can be attributed to anxiety, but most of these people will justify it as telling themselves that they are better or more intelligent than most of society. Most people with severe depression also seem to be overly shy, socially inept and rarely in the present moment, thinking about what-ifs and what-could-ofs. Everyone experiences these to some degree, but it tends to greatly interfere with life in somebody with anxiety. When I say "anti-social," I don't mean the trend that it's "cool" to oppose norms and corporations. These people aren't anti-social because they do socialize, albeit amongst themselves or in their own little community, they just have a (IMO) distorted view of reality. What I mean by the term are the people who really cannot socialize. The ones that sit in class quietly and are too nervous to raise their hand even though they know the answer. The ones that nod or shake their head because they're too shy to speak up. The ones that can barely make eye-contact and refuse to do school presentations or work in a place where socializing is necessary (customer service, etc). These people are the ones that need medication if they've tried everything else with no luck, and while they may be diagnosed with depression, I believe that their depression is a symptom of an anxiety disorder. One very important thing I forgot to mention. Many people believe that the psychiatric drugs make you happy. They refuse to get medicated because they would rather feel depressed than to not have emotions (indifferent, numb), or they believe that the meds make you happy 24/7 in any situation. Both these views make the drugs unappealing, but fortunately, they are based on the older psychiatric medications (like Thorazine) that we used to give mental illness patients 30 years ago. Assuming you DO have a chemical imbalance. The drugs don't make you happy at all. They make you normal - the baseline of a healthy person. Things you've previously enjoyed become enjoyable again, but negative situations still make you depressed. I feel that many people view the meds as making you happy in seemingly miserable situations. A sedated guy staring at the wall with a huge smile on his face, even though he's sitting in a knee-high pile of shit and his wife and kids abandoned him. This isn't true. The effects of the drugs is surprisingly subtle, they're almost a placebo compared to weed and are far less "numbing" than a few beers. If your life sucks, you will still be depressed, but the meds will help you better yourself by going to work, getting back into relationships and keeping yourself busy. They stop you from getting irritable and aggressive over minor issues, and give you your energy and motivation back. They remind you why your old hobbies were fun, and you can read a book without having to reread the paragraph 10 times to understand it. I'm sensitive to weed and shrooms, requiring far less to feel effects. The effects themselves don't seem to be altered, but the experience is more enjoyable in a way, sort of like when I first began smoking. It is probably due to a removal of a layer of anxiety underlying most of my previous trips. When I play the piano, I'm a lot more fluent and smooth. I have my libido back. Sex, even just kissing, are no longer a waste of time to me. I'm less irritable and I actually get my work done. I've had a folder with business ideas that I've been meaning to get to for 3 years now. I'm finally going through each one of my projects. Side effects are occasional headaches and changes in appetite. Initially I had bowel problems, but that cleared itself up. It's not really like meth or ecstasy. There's no rush or "speedy" feeling. I can't stress how natural and subtle the effects feel. Mental illness (schizophrenia) runs in my family, so it's likely I do have a chemical imbalance. One thing that disappoints me is how some of my relatives and friends kept scaring me away from pharmaceuticals when I was younger. I feel like so much time was wasted. I wrote the OP in an effort to get people in the situation I was in to consider seeking professional help. The way I'm talking about these drugs now, sounds much like the way we talk to people about illegal drugs. We give them lectures on the pros and cons of weed and LSD, but they're viewpoint is fixed that these cause a plethora of side effects and ethical/social problems. Please keep the debate going. My intention is not to cause an uproar, but simply to get people to share their viewpoints and think. I will eventually put the significant points in the OP so that new readers don't need to go through the entire thread. --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 12/22/07 Posts: 6 Last seen: 16 years, 1 month |
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Quote: same dude. I dont think bumble is full of shit either. Im a computer scientist and by no means an expert on psychosis- but isnt some chronic depression sometimes caused because the brain simply stops producing some chemicals, and isnt that proven? I had friends who were shocked but ended up with psychiatrist even though nothing traumatic happened. Not saying it works for everyone, but how can anyone who hasnt even tried it themselves give a verdict? Even if you have there is no garuntee that its the same for others as well. cool thread guys
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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I'm not going to argue whether or not antidepressant medications are effective, because that issue is still hotly debated within psychology and psychiatry. Enough research could support either opinion.
This chemical imbalance talk is all nonsense, though. Neuroscientists are probably about fifty years away from discovering what a "healthy" brain looks like at the chemical level. Currently, we don't even know how to define "health" in neurological terms, much less chemical terms. Scientists in German recently discovered that a single neuron had enough computational power to make an organism feel pain. The brain is extremely hard to reverse engineer. The serotonin hypothesis of depression has not been proven. Taking GABA supplements lowers levels of serotonin, but it does not make you depressed. (It will make you relaxed, though.) The only reason the serotinin hypothesis exists is because pharmaceutical companies are willing to reason backwards. Their logic is: because certain neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors create a better mood then a low amount of these neurotransmitters must cause a bad mood. This is the same as saying low levels of aspirin in the brain cause headaches.
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Quote:Quote:
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ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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bump
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: Wow. shows how much you know. -------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Perhaps you would like to elaborate
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: Dopamine and seratonin release in syncrasy? wow that's pretty uhhh....amazing
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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My title's cooler than yours DBK Registered: 09/04/01 Posts: 25,335 Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L. Last seen: 6 months, 26 days |
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Quote: i like how you only ever talk about is ADHD as your primary tool to discredit an entire field which you hardly know anything about. In fact, in almost every single mental illness debate you've ever involved yourself in, you've always had to revert to "ADHD as an example" instead of "ADHD as the best example i can think of". -------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: I'm sure that's what's keeping you from making a proper argumentation
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Total Carbohydra Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 924 Loc: Relatively New Y Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Quote: I agree that we still don't have a perfect view of the brain (not even close), and yes, the serotonin hypothesis hasn't been proven (neither have many many things, but we can deduct theories, this is the nature of science - we still don't even know if saturated fat is bad for you, nor why we sleep). Blocking the reuptake of serotonin eventually causes your brain to create less serotonin receptors, and this increases mood. Why? We don't know. We also don't really understand how/why other neurotransmitters play a major role in overall "mood" (ambiguous) too. But this is irreverent to my point. Whether or not serotonin is proven to do anything doesn't make much of a difference to most people who ARE suffering from a depression that isn't responding to any other form of treatment. For example, schizophrenia is a serious mental illness, and one of the most effective treatments is blocking the high levels of dopamine commonly seen in patients. The high levels of dopamine can be a symptom of the schizophrenia, caused by something else, but so what? What are we supposed to do until we advance further into the brain to determine the root cause of the problem (which can very well be external, the illness being caused by a virus is still a very prominent theory)? Under your logic, we wouldn't give patients atypical antipsychotics because we're not sure of the true cause of schizophrenia. Using the 'fat' example I mentioned above, our only theory that saturated fat and high levels of cholesterol cause heart disease is because most people with heart problems have high levels of cholesterol. This is working backwards (most science is), and seems logical and simple, except that some things don't make sense. Why is heart disease non-existent in places where people only eat high fat diets? One theory is that cholesterol is released by the body to repair damage done to arteries by free radicals. The debate is big and ongoing, but until we figure it out, people are dying, so our best effort right now would be to get people to reduce their cholesterol intake, because this seems to help. It's not an "all or nothing" scenario: This either works 100% or you shouldn't take it. We have compromises (low doses of meds + therapy for instance). You both present your viewpoints, but neither of you have a solution to the problem. I've been very critically keeping up with psychiatry for close to a decade now, and months ago, I would have been in this thread typing out exactly what you guys are replying. My viewpoint changed after I stopped being stubborn (not saying any of you are, but I was), dropped my assumptions about science and psychiatry, and began to really research genetics and neuroscience. I read journals, took classes and I read arguments pro/anti medication. I was in awe at how far we've come in the last 10 years, and how wrong I was to make assumptions that mental illness patients were idiotic and should just get over their problems using exercise and an acid trip. I actually visited hospitals and saw these people first hand. Many of the anti-drug arguments are good and are still valid today, but most people don't realize that the (numerous) cons of the drugs doesn't outweigh the cons people experience from their problem. Medication is a huge blessing to these people. Do you guys remember 'farm colonies'? Research 'Pilgrim State' - This is how we used to treat mental illness patients before medication became a viable solution. My intention wasn't to start an argument for/pro psychiatry. My original post was targeted at a very specific group of people. Those that are facing serious problems and a piss-poor quality of life due to a mental illness that they refuse to seek professional treatment for simply due to a negative stigma about meds. I am assuming that these people have exhausted every other means of treatment (feasible to them) without much success. For those that got over their problems using drug-free methods, awesome! Share your experience (in another thread!) and help people go your route. People suffering do seek such threads for motivation and insights. The reason drugs are so popular and widely used today is not just due to the fact that they bring in lots of money, but because there is currently no practical solution to the problem (again - doesn't apply to everyone, see paragraph above). They might not be perfect, and I believe that in the coming decades, their use will decline as we uncover more about the brain, but until then, millions of people deserve a standard quality of life. Mental illness occurs in every society in every part of the world. There's no doubting that many cases are caused by at least some physical problem, but I don't necessarily believe that the physical problem of mental illness is simply tied to crappy regulation of neurotransmitters. I believe that severe cases of mental illness that don't resolve on their own and don't respond to drug-free treatment might be caused by a physical problem, which in turn causes the messed up levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. The physical problem might just be a defect or chronic condition that is hard to detect, or due to something external such as a virus or an infection. For instance, sleep apnea is sometimes hard to detect, especially when the person doesn't snore and doesn't wake up repeatedly in the middle of the night (those are the most common symptoms). The subject may simply not be getting the amount of REM required for the benefits of sleep. This can result in waking up feeling exhausted, chronic fatigue, inability to concentrate, and so forth; Very common symptoms of depression. This itself makes the subject depressed and that shows up on scans as a chemical imbalance. What would happen in this case? The subject would be given antidepressants, and might or might not respond well to it, being that the medication isn't targeting the root of the problem. Sleep apnea is just one of countless "real" physical problems that can result in a chemical imbalance. Or maybe a temporary physical problem results in depression which feeds on itself, causing more physical problems (i.e., patient gets a virus that causes brain damage/depression. Body fights it off, but during the depression, patient gained 50lb, now patient has sleep apnea and that keeps the depression going). That's my take on it. Most mental illness can be taken care of in CBT and other forms of therapy (ERP is gaining ground too), some others require self-exploration and development of good habits, or simply adopting a better view of reality, but the minority of people who aren't responding well to the first two should seek medicine - but only IF their problem is having a major impact on their life: If it's ruining their marriage, making them lose their job, etc, then it's a waste of time not to take meds IMO. This is after you have tried the drug-free treatments and have gotten yourself physically checked up for common things that can cause your mental illness (paying close attention to every symptom helps). It's my hope that people will use the meds only as support to help them through other forms of treatment. For example, combining low doses of benzos with meditation to ease anxiety - as in the first link I posted in the OP. I see current psychiatric meds as being cure-alls the same way opiates and amphetamine were once prescribed for everything. Maybe tomorrow, we'll have a breakthrough discovery that instantly renders the pills obsolete and out of the clinic - we're getting there, Neuroplasticity is picking up ground - but as of right now, they remain a solution for those that need help. Anyway - (1 minute belated) MERRY CHRISTMAS! <3 <3 <3
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Stranger ![]() Registered: 04/21/05 Posts: 4,587 |
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Quote: Umm, no. I began my last post by stating that I would not debate the effectiveness of reuptake inhibitors as a treatment for depression. Under my logic, we would not say that schizophrenia is caused by a "chemical imbalance" because second generation antipsychotics modulate dopamine receptors. Whether or not using atypical antipsychotics are an effective treatment is a totally different issue. Etiology and treatment are two distinct things. Quote: So? That is not reasoning backwards. Saturated fat and cholesterol form plaques. Quote: Reasoning backwards is a logical fallacy that has no place in science. Quote: I presented an empirically based solution to the problem in my first post.
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