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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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art can be objectively compared : part 2
    #7683757 - 11/26/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you read any book from the spectrum of fiction literature, you will notice that the authors most revered in their genre do so becuase they can relate to their target audience and communicate so viscerally an experience that is indicitave to that group.
For example the trashy romance novellas that line the walls in walmart appeal to and are enjoyed by bored housewives in a loveless marriage. These women can identify with the longing and the fantasizing. They have experienced exactly what their favorite authors convey with words so well.
But that doesnt make it good art... it is still entertainment. By examinging the type of people that buy these trashy romance novels, you would see that they are most often women of low intelligence that probably never got much of a college education.
So, basically what I am saying is that when your art appeals to stupid people, it is kind of making that equivalent to your art being... stupid.

here are some lyrics from a linkin park song....
Quote:

LINKIN PARK LYRICS

"One Step Closer"

I cannot take this anymore
Saying everything I've said before
All these words they make no sense
I find bliss in ignorance
Less I hear the less you'll say
You'll find that out anyway

Just like before...

[Chorus:]
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
I'm about to break

I find the answers aren't so clear
Wish I could find a way to disappear
All these thoughts they make no sense
I find bliss in ignorance
Nothing seems to go away
Over and over again

Just like before...

[Chorus]

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break

Shut up when I'm talking to you
Shut up, shut up, shut up
Shut up when I'm talking to you
Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up

I'm about to BREAK

[Chorus]

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break





Now, LP appeals to 14 year olds and white trash / nascar fans. Their lyrics have no actual content, it is a slew of cliches wrapped around each other with no real subject being identified. It is 8th grade poetry that is just trying to squeeze out emotion onto paper.

Now, here are the lyrics from a Mr bungle song called platypus, where they attempted to create a perfect song which conveyed the concept of the platypus.

Quote:

Ornithorhynchus anatinus - platypus

Sleeping geology
On the isolated shore
For millions of years

Experimental continent
On purpose or accident?

Mysterious evolving
Problem solving

A vaudeville? A nation including one superior creation
A vertebra? Inverted...quite unheard of...

Orphan in a family
And a sole survivor
He's a living fossil

Reptillian? Mammalian
He's a bird-beaked, beaver-butt Australian

Amphibious? Paradox wearing plaid socks
Furry beetle? A bugbear, and a palezoologist's nightmare
Symmetrical physique of disbelief

The platypus has the brain of a dolphin
and can be seen driving a forklift in his habitat of kelp
He is the larva of the flatworm
and has the ability to regenerate after injury

No relation to the flounder.

Someone shipped him to the blokes
Who said he was a hoax
So they cut him to pieces, wrote a thesis

A cranium of deceit, he's prone to lie and cheat;
It's no wonder -- a blunder from down under

Duckbill, watermole, duckmole!

Barnacle




Now, LP's song is pretty easy to sing in your head... even if you havent heard the song, you would be able to be pretty close to singing it correctly.....
but you would have to hear this song platypus to even get the feeling. The art is a whole thought, it complements each other... a symbiotic relationship, where as LP's song is scribbled jibberish over 3 power chords sung in tones that seem cool to people with mullets.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7683780 - 11/26/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: Well argued. I agree!

Thanks a lot for getting Linkin Park stuck in my head... I haven't had to hear that shit since highschool when that song was a hit, and now it's gonna take me hours to purge it from my system. :crankey:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683800 - 11/26/07 10:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

go listen to platypus, it will blow your mind.

It starts off sounding rather fusion-ish but then literally spirals (amazing mixing skills) out into this odd tempo'd funk that makes you want to dance like a platypus.

I suck at uploading, but you can always check it out on Rhapsody.com or DL it on limewire etc.... you get 25 free plays on Rhapsody a month. It is on Disco Volenta album, track 11 I believe.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7683854 - 11/26/07 10:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Oh hey, I friend of mine burned me that particular album years ago! I should dig it up and give it a listen. For some reason I never really got into it, even though I enjoyed it. I definitly have a lot of respect for Mike Patton.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7683861 - 11/26/07 10:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Tool also has great, deep lyrics and complex musical structure, but I know people who consider them bland and commercial(I'm not one of them, but I respect their opinion).


--------------------


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Silversoul]
    #7683928 - 11/26/07 11:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

meh... Tool has their moments. Carey is phenomenal and Maynard has such a powerful voice, but generally they have stooped to be more commercially viable.

none of their albums were truly conceptual as a whole... but they are one of the few bands that have been able to maintain some form of artistic integrity whilst being commercially viable.... like Pink Floyd, the beach boys, Yes, Peter Gabriel, David Bowie.....

at times they all faltered and usually found their way back for atleast one more good album.....

but that raises another good point. Animals for instance wasnt a commercial success really, but is now considered by most fans to be their best album.... in time 10,000 days or whatever that new tool album that sucks is called will be forgotten and rarely talked about, while undertow or aenima will be considered their pinnacle of art.
and let me say again that there is nothing wrong with entertainment. Im not knocking on certain artists for sucking as entertainment... that is subjective.... no one can objectively say what is entertaining, but when it comes to fine art, I believe we can... and that is what I am hating on Linkin Park for.... because they have no artistic value whatsoever... atleast their stand alone music... maybe they put on a good show, I got no idea and hope I never will.

Frankly, i think Mr Bungle sucks live... but their albums are fucking brilliant works of art that were so meticulously crafted that it still amazes me after over 1000 listens of them each.

But atleast mr bbungle maintained their artistic goals and when they wanted to sell out they made a band called Faith No More.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7683934 - 11/26/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

but that raises another good point. Animals for instance wasnt a commercial success really, but is now considered by most fans to be their best album.... in time 10,000 days or whatever that new tool album that sucks is called will be forgotten and rarely talked about, while undertow or aenima will be considered their pinnacle of art.



Lateralus > *


--------------------


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Silversoul]
    #7684329 - 11/27/07 01:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I loved Tool a few years ago, and I still have a certain amount of respect for them for being one of the best mainstream bands out there. But their quality definitly ends with Lateralus, and Aenema was thier best work. They're a gateway drug. For me, they were a transition out of the kind of radio schlock I listened to previously, for lack of access to anything better.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684390 - 11/27/07 01:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see no objective comparison in this thread, simply subjective value judgments and an air of baseless superiority. :sorry:



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7684843 - 11/27/07 07:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I disagree FW, even if I'd have never heard the music, the Platypus lyrics are obviously better written and more interesting than LP's. I think most anyone would objectively agree.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684855 - 11/27/07 07:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
I loved Tool a few years ago, and I still have a certain amount of respect for them for being one of the best mainstream bands out there. But their quality definitly ends with Lateralus, and Aenema was thier best work. They're a gateway drug. For me, they were a transition out of the kind of radio schlock I listened to previously, for lack of access to anything better.




How many times have you listened to 10K Days? I had to hear it 23 times before it started to sink in.

What has f00l lead you to?

Got any names similar to ISIS, UFOMammut, 5ive, Colour Haze, Earth, or Growing?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Middleman]
    #7684888 - 11/27/07 08:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
I disagree FW, even if I'd have never heard the music, the Platypus lyrics are obviously better written and more interesting than LP's. I think most anyone would subjectively agree.




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7684916 - 11/27/07 08:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes it is possible to compare things objectively, that was my point.

Objective = Expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.

Manipulating other's quotes to make a point = :whatever:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Middleman]
    #7684972 - 11/27/07 08:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ahh, so there is a universal standard of what constitutes "more interesting". :smirk:

Have fun with that.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7685010 - 11/27/07 08:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I see no objective comparison in this thread, simply subjective value judgments and an air of baseless superiority. :sorry:



My thoughts exactly.  I think anyone assigning "objectivity" to their value judgments is being hopelessly egotistical.


--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Silversoul]
    #7685016 - 11/27/07 08:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, whatever, you guys win.

Here, have some Skittles. 

:skittles:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Middleman]
    #7685018 - 11/27/07 08:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Objective = Expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.



You cannot perceive without interpreting. That is the nature of perception itself. When you see the grass as green, even then you are making an interpretation.


--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Silversoul]
    #7685026 - 11/27/07 08:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

YEAH fine, I said you win.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7685213 - 11/27/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

art can be objectively compared :

No it can't. For that to happen one would have to know what the "truth" is and that just isn't possible. Having beliefs about truth is the only possibility.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Middleman]
    #7685389 - 11/27/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Earth, or Growing?




I love Earth and Growing! Also - Sunn O))), Nadja, Grails, Charalambides, Avarus, Axolotl, Yellow Swans, Alasehir, Brothers of the Occult Sisterhood, Lichens, Bonecloud, Kemialliset Ystavat, Islaja, Six Organs of Admittance, Prurient... The list goes on! Check out Aquarius Records, to discover new stuff like that.


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