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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7691058 - 11/28/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, so I was thinking today about all my favorite rivalries in genre, that is in my own head...

Nick Drake vs Joni Mitchell
Aphex Twin Vs. Brian Eno
Debussey Vs. Ravel
King Crimson Vs. Mahavishnu orchestra
Bill Bruford Vs. David Holland


And then there is Jimi Hendrix. The man is a genre unto himself. So what do you say to Hendrix?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: daytripper23]
    #7692090 - 11/28/07 06:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Buckethead.

as for your other ones, I think this would be more accurate.

Nick Drake vs Jeff Buckley/badly drawn boy/ elliot smith

but I get the comparison with Joni and Drake, since they both used rare/unique tunings. Other than Pink Moon, Drakes music is filled with dispair and his very few actual studio albums, even when coupled with the very low fidelity recordings that were posthumously released, doesnt compare to the 20 or so albums in Joni's catalogue, all of which are stellar and a few gems that really put her above Drake: Hejira, Court and Spark, Blue.
Both of their works often leave the listener filled with a feeling of despair at times, but Joni's always has an essence of a favorable longing.
while Drake was a better guitarist than Joni, she still had Jaco on her side and an impressive line up of other players, but I find that her lyrical content perfectly captured the essence of women that grew up in the 70's and the music really put the eyebrows on it, as well as her vocal melodic patterns were unique... where as Drakes lyrics conveyed the same sense in and out of context of the music.
Quote:

Oh I am a lonely painter
I live in a box of paints
Im frightened by the devil
And Im drawn to those ones that aint afraid
I remember that time that you told me, you said
Love is touching souls
Surely you touched mine
Cause part of you pours out of me
In these lines from time to time

Oh you are in my blood like holy wine
And you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you
I could drink a case of you darling
Still Id be on my feet
And still be on my feet




that is "A Case of You" by Joni... and while the lyrics sound like it could have been written by a woman that needed a man in her life, the way the song plays out leaves no doubt in your mind that she is a strong willed independant woman who just happens to be smitten with more like the idea of her object of desire rather than the actual person.
While Nick Drake took the concept of delta blues and ran with it, his own despair/depression shone through so much that he keeps harping on the same emotion and hammering it in.... which is rather 2-d... but of all musicians, he really has the market cornered on despair.

Aphex vs Brian Eno is a great one.... maybe even throw Varese somewhere into the mix for fun.... but I would still have to go with Richard D James on this one.
while both rely mainly on instrumental, ethereal ambience to set a mood, aphex has some of the most diversity of any artist around. He is like an actor that can play any part in any movie. While Eno can break out of his ambience at times, the range of atmospheres that he projects is rather limited.
in the album Drukqs, every other song of the double disc is a gentle, classical piece, while the rest are ball to the wall chaotic, anxiety inducing journeys.
I would say that boards of Canada, plaid and Mu-ziq are on the same level as Eno, while Aphex being on a higher level.... even though we do have to give credit for Eno really inspiring these other artists, the students have surpassed the teacher.

as for the impressionists, I dont feel I have given enough listens, especially to Ravel (NPR doesnt spin it usually because it isnt public domain yet). So I will refrain from commenting on this one.

KC vs MO is a pretty tough one. I dont think that I could pick one over the other... it is so incredibly close. Now if you had said vs Yes, or some other prog rock band, I think it would be much easier. Or go Trans Siberian Orchestra vs Mahavishnu.... there would have been more discrepencies that you could draw through overlapping similarities.
So basically, this one I would say are on the same level.

and bruford over Holland. hands down (boys pants).... but seriously, there are many drummers I would put above bruford as well. When you are singling out something like a drummer, you can really only rely on two categories, technical ability and feeling.
While Bruford has tons of technical ability, i find he becomes too robotic at times, especially when he uses all those triggers and drum pads.... it is like he is too good, but it fits perfectly with a band like KC, anywhere else it would probably turn the band into some stale peice of shit like Dream theater.
but to get as objective as I can..... bruford can play anything that Holland has, but Holland couldnt do the same to Brufords work.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Silversoul]
    #7692410 - 11/28/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I was just reminded of something I saw on the Discovery Channel one time.  There was this art expo, and one of the abstract paintings was done by a trained chimp(and I don't mean George W. Bush).  They showed some art critic who was unaware of the painting's source describing what painter was trying to convey.  How objective can art be if a trained eye can't distinguish between a work of a genius and the random doodles of this guy: :monkeydance:




paintings and sculptures are harder to really comprehend a full concept. They can, but most often you have to examine the entire artists works from his entire life and then put that into context. Paintings are a fickle thing, and even more fickle is the market that it is set in.
It is run in a very warholian way... it is dominated by para-nepotism (if you get what I mean by that). Quality art (paintings) are passed over in favor of "what is hot".... pop culture has infected the sector and ruined it to a degree.

and if you dont like that answer, then maybe you should just take this as a reply...

a million monkeys on typewriters could eventually produce the works of shakespeare.

or.....

how do you know that the monkey wasnt trying to express exactly what the critic was saying? there is no way to tell that he was wrong.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7693350 - 11/29/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Im suprised you would so easily argue Buckethead is better then hendrix. I mean I like buckethead, but I don't think he's written anything in the same league of Jimi's albums, even to this day.

Yeah, as a guitarist, Jimi probably didnt have as diverse a sound. As far as guitar effects go, Jimi mostly relied on distortion, While buckethead goes as far as sounding like hes from another planet sometimes. Also Jimi never got into chromatics, diminished, or tritone techniques like buckethead, which contributes so much to Bucketheads craziness/alieness. But I don't think it was necessary for Jimi. I think Jimi's relative safety in terms of abstraction could be said to contribute to greater depth in what he does express.

Generally, Buckethead creates the kind of music that makes me feel like im going crazy, in a holy shit kind of way. I remember when I first heard The Big Eyeball in the Sky, it was just like this. He creates quite a bit of tension, Like a mushroom trip kind of, it pushes you out there. But this isn't always ideal. Its not exactly comforting. If I were peaking on mushrooms, I might not want to hear any buckethead, because I don't always want to listen to insanity. I would much rather peak to Castles made of sand. I mean how better could you come to terms with shit than that.

Quote:

Down the street you can hear her scream youre a disgrace
As she slams the door in his drunken face
And now he stands outside
And all the neighbours start to gossip and drool
He cries oh, girl you must be mad,
What happened to the sweet love you and me had?
Against the door he leans and starts a scene,
And his tears fall and burn the garden green

And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually

A little indian brave who before he was ten,
Played wargames in the woods with his indian friends
And he built up a dream that when he grew up
He would be a fearless warrior indian cheif
Many moons past and more the dream grew strong until
Tomorrow he would sing his first warsong and fight his first battle
But something went wrong, surprise attack killed him in his sleep that night

And so castles made of sand melts into the sea, eventually

There was a young girl, whos heart was a frown
cause she was crippled for life,
And she couldnt speak a sound
And she wished and prayed she could stop living,
So she decided to die
She drew her wheelchair to the edge of the shore
And to her legs she smiled you wont hurt me no more
But then a sight shed never seen made her jump and say
Look a golden winged ship is passing my way

And it really didnt have to stop, it just kept on going...




Its not exactly mind expanding, but thats not really what you need when your peaking on shrooms is it? Its down to earth, beautiful, tragic...

Ive heard bucketheads more fragile side, his classical guitar album colma, which I think is ok at best. You might argue that buckethead is more devestating as a guitarist, but I think Jimi offers a more wide variety, and depth of emotions particularly on one end of the spectrum: castles made of sand, little wing, Angel, the wind cries mary, hey joe. Other times he is arguably just as intense as Buckethead. He also fills this gap between tragic beauty and intensity better. Even if buckethead is more intense, and does offer his classical guitar work on the other end of the spectrum, theres no in between area like with Hendrix, who establishes almost a continuity. Listen to Jimi's album Axis Bold as Love, and youll see what I mean.

So I think Jimi expresses something more diverse and wholistic emotionally, while buckethead might better push me to the limits of my emotions/sanity. To me theyre much too different to objectively compare in terms of quality...

As for the other artists I mentioned I of course wouldnt be able to pick, thats why I mentioned them. I cant believe I forgot my favorite duality, Radiohead vs Pink Floyd. I dont think you could please anyone with a winner on that one either.

Your arguing the objectivity of music, is in my head basically the same as arguing for the existence of God. In terms of arguments on this board, I just try to pick at the side that oversteps certain boundaries, though I wouldnt really invest myself on either side. Like I said, part of me agrees with the concept you express, much like the concept of God.

On that note, I wish we could get the usual cynics in on this thread...


Edited by daytripper23 (11/29/07 01:05 AM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: daytripper23]
    #7693427 - 11/29/07 01:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Edit: Ill just leave it at that actually


Edited by daytripper23 (11/29/07 01:28 AM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: daytripper23]
    #7693679 - 11/29/07 05:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

it is funny that you bring tripping into the mix... it is basically where I drew the correlation with buckethead and hendrix.
I like to think of Buckethead as the new Hendrix. I mean, the electric guitar and amplification had yet to really be developed like it has today, so Jimi was a pioneer in that fashion and made magic with what little effects that were available.
while buckethead does have far more to work with than Jimi ever would have, I think he has still done much more with what he has.
Watching a video isnt the same as being at the concert, and sadly I will never get to experience the experience, but I did with Praxis.
I cant remember how many hits of acid I took, but I was right up on the front of the stage and watched him do his robotic shiver, do magic tricks, and hold out a severed head that sung an entire song while he played more technically than Jimi could have with two hands.
I would take that over lighting the guitar on fire anyday. Brain was on the drums, Bernie Worrel was in a purple cloak surrounded by 360 degrees of keys and organs and laughed maniacally as he created this wall of sound.

but anyway, lets put put the guns to the test. I have Buckethead and Jimi doing the exact same song.
&feature=related

&feature=related


Im sure you either know the character Akira, and if not then most likely Spawn.... what these two characters had in common was that they could do anything that they could think of. Buckethead is one of the Akira's of the guitar. the only thing that limits him is his imagination and we have yet to see the boundaries of that.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: daytripper23]
    #7695448 - 11/29/07 04:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nick Drake vs Joni Mitchell
Aphex Twin Vs. Brian Eno
Debussey Vs. Ravel
King Crimson Vs. Mahavishnu orchestra
Bill Bruford Vs. David Holland


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: Icelander]
    #7696223 - 11/29/07 06:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Im sure you either know the character Akira, and if not then most likely Spawn.... what these two characters had in common was that they could do anything that they could think of. Buckethead is one of the Akira's of the guitar. the only thing that limits him is his imagination and we have yet to see the boundaries of that.




Yea man, deffinately.

That movie basically expresses what I was trying to say in my first post, but brings a necessary organic quality to the whole thing. Its always easy to talk about the interplay of evolution, creativity, and enlightenment in theory, where you get all these idealistic notions in your mind, but the experience is just so much more.

By the way, you posted two of the same hendrix videos.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: daytripper23]
    #7696327 - 11/29/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This reminds me of the first time I saw Being John Malcovich. I sat down sober, and by the end of the movie I was fucked up. I got into one of those thought loops, and didnt know what to do with myself for about an hour. This is the closest thing Ive ever had to a flashback though I think there is no real line between tripping and not.

So next time I watched it, I made sure to take a hit of acid. I was so incredibly pumped, and actually a little scarrred of the outcome. But basically, it didnt do shit for me. I was tripping, but Idk? I think the movie was so much like drugs in itself, taking acid didnt really "amplify" anything. Not to say that this is always the case, just happened this way that time, which was weird. Could have just as easily been me though.

Some artists are to be enjoyed with drugs, some are drugs.


Edited by daytripper23 (11/29/07 07:06 PM)


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OfflineBoots
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Re: art can be objectively compared : part 2 [Re: daytripper23]
    #7696721 - 11/29/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The only way that objectively comparing art could work would be if you took a handful of artists and developed a system with which to rank their worth in the sense that one particular goal of these artists is in mind and rank accordingly.

Example:

Handful of artists:

Sunn O)))
The Angelic Process
Cathedral

Which of these artists best conveys the emotion of despair through the use of song?

The problem is that not everybody will feel despair the same way.

In which case...

Handful of Artists:

Sunn O)))
The Angelic Process
Cathedral

Which of these artists is the slowest?

Well, that can be calculated but all that says is that Sunn O))) is the slowest. It really doesn't measure which is a better artist.

Fuck, I guess this desn't work.:)


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