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All Hail Metaphysics!
    #7650196 -

"When I say metaphysics, I mean metaphysics. The Queen of pastimes, the sport of the intellect, the high romance of speculative thought; infinite in scope , relying on the treacherous subtlety and learning of the player; and yet, in its daring and refusal to heed the mundane considerations, capable of splendid flights into the darkness that surrounds our visible world. Metaphysics, the mother of psychology and the laughing father of psychoanalysis. A wondrous game in which the players cannot decide what the relative values of the pieces are, or how big a board they are playing on. A wondrous, wondrous diversion for a really adventurous mind" -Robertson Davies

Since I have been posting here I have become more and more suspicious that this may be the whole of it. Don't think it's what I would prefer because I would love to be part of a big positive conscious plan, but the more I look into it the less likely that seems.:(


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/18/07 08:27 AM)

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7650810 -

What about love?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7650832 -

You should probably read Camus. His thing is that fundamental nature of existence is absurdity, and that there is no meaning whatsoever to it. He thought that to impose any meaning was a diversion from facing existence honestly, and that one should live in 'revolt,' that is, not get down because of it but live the fullest, happiest life they possibly could fully aware of the absurdity of it all. Seems like he may be right up your alley, Ice.

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Rahz]
    #7650834 -

What about it? You want a date?:inlove:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7650879 -

I feel so tempted. What are these strange feelings? :heart:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7650891 -

What, exactly, seems to be the source of your ego's disappointment? Is it that you would rather continue to taste the 'sugar' of existence then become the sugar itself? Take sexuality as another 'sweet.' Imagine a sexual satisfaction that doesn't climax and wane, but continues to expand so overwhelmingly that Awareness becomes so suffused with the pleasure that the ego-mind shrinks and blinks. No 'you' to perceive the bliss, but you have merged with and become the bliss. What about Nirvanic states - non-sexual transcendental ecstasies? Same deal. I've had a taste of yielding do completely that 'I' no longer existed to watch the Condition. All that remained WAS the Condition. There was ineffability without the faintest ego-sense to feel regret, loss, loss of control, etc. It was a metaphorical through-the-looking-glass inasmuch as in that Condition of Awakening, the Awakened Mind retreated from its identification with Mark. Mark was the dream that vanished from the perspective of the Awakened Mind. The Awakened Mind apparently went back to sleep and Mark re-appeared.

Franz Kafka's 'Metamorphosis' - a man dreaming he is a beetle, or a beetle dreaming he is a man? I prefer the Chinese correlate of a butterfly of course, but still metaphor. Awakened Mind will return to its Self-Aware Condition during Asamprajnata Samadhi, and presumably, at death. I suspect that the transition will bring alleviation from pain, including the psychological component of pain, namely, fear. I do not think I will be shocked by this transition as I think most people will because of my constant attentiveness to metaphysics such as this.

I remember my first ego-death experience: October 10, 1960, my tonsillectomy. They gave me a shot which calmed my nerves so that even at age 7, while lying on a gurney outside the OR, I remeber feeling curiosity not fear. A young nurse passed by and smiled at me. They wheeled me in and my family doctor in green nylon-like gown and mask (the doc who delivered me, my brother and 6 of my cousins) lifted me onto the table. He was surrounded by other gowned figures in green. He said "breath deeply" and he placed the mesh juice-strainer stuffed with cotton wool over my nose and mouth. My eyes were open as he began to pour ethyl ether onto the etherizer. The vapors burned my eyes and the intense vapors poured into my nose and throat. I panicked. "I can't breath you shit!" I yelled through the muffling cotton as I heard several chuckles from the OR staff. The panic changed in the twinkling of an eye to a curious field of blackness with rotating darkly colored geometric shapes moving closer to my mind's-eye. Unconsciousness, until I awoke with the most painful throat I'd ever experienced.

It's the panic to visionary transition I wish to emphasize here. I've taken it upon myself to experience psychedelic visions for most of my life, accompanied by the most sublimely ecstatic feeling states. I never once tried to repapitualte the ethyl ether experience, but ego-death, definately. 'I' have always reconstituted, so-to-speak, as Mark. When my ego-death is not followed by such a reconstitution, Mark will be said to have died. Perhaps the multicolored lights of the Bardo. It's all good. I am here to Realize 'the way it is,' and to accept things as they are, and to comfort those who find this dream called life to be an unacceptable nightmare. I am not a Mother Teresa seeking the very worst victims of existence, and I am not flying to Darfur. I am neither strong enough to do so nor do I belong there and would doubtlessly be killed immediately. No, I am gratefully blessed to suffer existence in the least terrible land on this planet. It's OK to die, everyone does it. 'I' just do not want to leave the way 'I' entered this existence - kicking and screaming - because I was convinced of its reality. I want to be like Neo in 'The Matrix,' raising his hand, palm out like the Buddha in the Abhaya Mudra, stopping bullets in mid-flight with a gesture of fearlessness.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Rahz]
    #7650892 -

:doggystyle:

We can take turns being Mommy and Daddy. All hail Metaphysics.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7650909 -

What about Nirvanic states - non-sexual transcendental ecstasies? Same deal. I've had a taste of yielding do completely that 'I' no longer existed to watch the Condition. All that remained WAS the Condition.

Did you know that there are chemical and hormonal changes that go alone with these states? When an animal is seriously harmed it often goes into a state of shock where no pain is felt.in its daring and refusal to heed the mundane considerations, This is the rub to your claims IMO. Lots of alternate explanations. I've discovered that it's my choice how I will interpret the event and yet the event stays the same no matter what the interpretation.

It's OK to die, everyone does it. 'I' just do not want to leave the way 'I' entered this existence - kicking and screaming - because I was convinced of its reality.

Nor do I. Yet I believe we can still remain calm when being convinced of a reality we do not choose.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/18/07 12:49 PM)

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7650929 -

Yes indeed, I recognize physical reality completely, but at some point the metaphysics of Reality dawns and Consciousness is recognized by itself being ontologically prior to its identification with the physical. I'm not talking out-of-the-body experiences of a yet 'individual' consciousness, I'm referring to the Metacosmic Reality of God playing peek-a-Boo with Him-Herself through the forgetful eyes of a baby.

There are indeed choices to be made as to interpretation when one is back in the mundane condition. However, I am speaking to the experiences of Supramundane Consciousness and as such transcendental states annihilate subject-object distinctions, my decision has been to regard the subsequent mundane-mind interpretations, i.e., the sensory-rational mind as inferior in the apprehension of Supramundane experience. The rational mind does not have the capability of evaluating such conditions any more than physical instruments could ever sample the core of a star.

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7650941 -

It's OK to die, everyone does it. 'I' just do not want to leave the way 'I' entered this existence - kicking and screaming - because I was convinced of its reality.

Nor do I. Yet I believe we can still remain calm when being convinced of a reality we do not choose.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7650948 -

I'm referring to the Metacosmic Reality of God playing peek-a-Boo with Him-Herself through the forgetful eyes of a baby.

That's the rub. I can no longer convince myself that I have the capability to know if there is a God playing anything at all and because of what I have learned I have grave doubts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7650991 -

Icelander said:
I'm referring to the Metacosmic Reality of God playing peek-a-Boo with Him-Herself through the forgetful eyes of a baby.

That's the rub. I can no longer convince myself that I have the capability to know if there is a God playing anything at all and because of what I have learned I have grave doubts.


Forgive me the use of the word God. Perhaps what I should say is Being, or Pure Consciousness. Whatever Ultimate Reality has set in motion through its infinitely creative abilities. The emanation or procession of energy and thence matter into form and sentient life, still proceeds from a Transcendental source which I feel comfortable calling God. And the myriad life forms with almost infinite systems in this Great Chain of Being all points to the ONE which is Pure Consciousness as far as my limited mind can ascertain. Every 'dot and tittle' of form is an Idea (thought Plato, and I concur with Plato, the NeoPlatonists, the Kabbalists and the Christian mystics from Meister Eckhart to Eckhart Tolle).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7651021 -

Philosophy and spirituality are inherently metaphysical subjects.

The quote you have in the first post is a perfectly articulated description of what you can expect from a forum like this... are you surprised? If so, why?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7651073 -

still proceeds from a Transcendental source

Same thing to me.

I really feel that you and I think alike. We both strive to know. We have had differing life experiences and so find ourselves on differing paths but the goal is the same. To find our bliss. I don't want to kid myself but I do want to find meaning for myself. If I can't know what meaning there is in the Big picture then I want to embrace that and still look for something worthwhile in this experience I call life. I keep open the distinct possibility that you could be correct and I not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7651202 -

I don't see it that way - that I have the correct perspective and you do not. You are speaking from a perspective which you are wed to at present as your frame of reference. It is a rational perspective which is reductionistic of metaphysical interpretations to 'just another interpretation.' But that reductionistic stance is the perspective of rational thinking applied to a transrational experience.

I suspect that you have experienced transcendental glimpses yourself, but as you (as ego) came back to yourself, your ego assimilated that then-shrunken experience to 'just another experience' which it could then tuck away in memory. If you entered fully into that experience, the opposite effect and perspective would've come about. Remember the marble-sized sphere that hung around the cat named Orion in the movie 'Men in Black?' That marble held an entire universe! The Universe is a Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart - OM MANI PADME HUM. But enter INTO that Jewel, that point, that portal, and it open up into Infinity.

I can have that perspective of reducing the Infinite to a finite experience, but I still recognize that the experience is a portal to Infinity. That gives the experience an Infinitely important, which is to say, pre-eminently Real or Sacred character. Most former acid users I've met over the decades simply relegated experiences with 'metaphysical implications' to mere drug experiences which they scarcely remember and which had no lasting effect upon their lives because of their how they chose to value those experiences: weird and fun, but not revelatory of Sacred Space. Too bad, because one of the side effects from basking in the glow that still emanates from certain experiences has a truly rejuvenating effect on one's mind-body. It's like the background radiation from the Big Bang that is with us even today.

One of my best childhood friends, who I turned on to acid, only ever said "It's fun," (shrooms too) and now he fasts and observes all kinds of Greek Orthodox holidays and goes to church with his wife and who has pretty much stopped e-mailing me about spiritual topics because he's all about religious thoughts (doctrines) now, and has kept some shrooms in his freezer for years now but won't trip because wifey won't and after all, his experiences were just "fun" and he never allowed them to penetrate to his core because his church never admitted anything about such things. And though I show him the Greek Orthodox cross on my votive table with mushroomic forms and grain inside, and though he now knows about ergot at Eleusis, and how ergot forms tiny purple shrooms from grain and that these elements are part of his archetypal and pre-Christian Greek heritage, he apparently feels guilty for thinking independently or will not choose to create spiritual destiny for himself based on his own experiences. We are co-creators and we are co-extensive with both creation and Being. We have both perspectives.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7651297 -

:shrug:

Once we have granted that any statement of truth is essentially only a model of the world of experience, we must renounce all hope of finding anything like the "truth" ... simply because the totality of experience is never accessible to us.

This is beginning to feel like a religious/agnostic discussion and we can go no further IMO.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7651349 -

Statements are models, experiences are experiences, and Totality IS an experience. What one chooses to name it for another's sake is the difficulty.

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7651366 -

Yes because "Totality" is also a statement.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7651373 -

You guys are engaging in useless argument. My world view is the one you need to start accepting because it is 100% correct. It is what you SHOULD do.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: All Hail Metaphysics! [Re: Icelander]
    #7651765 -

Icelander said:
Yes because "Totality" is also a statement.


Wha...what?

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