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Idealism
    #7101287 -

Recently, I have heard several people describe ideas as "too ideal". These statements seem contradictory to themselves, as by definition, nothing can be better than the ideal.
I understand the thought behind these statements to an extent, as ideals often take large amounts of time, effort, thought, etc...
BUT, by "exchanging" or putting off ideals for convenience, are we not just ultimately settling for less?

So, my question is...should we always be working towards "ideals", or is the ideal situation to keep a balance between working towards "ideals" and enjoying the possibly lesser good of convenience?

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Re: Idealism [Re: Whale]
    #7101303 -

Strive for ideals but do not expect them.


--------------------
R.I.P Rod Beck

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Re: Idealism [Re: robbyberto]
    #7103208 -

i think ideals are a damaging or negetive thing always, on some level. as long as you hold ideals in your head you will fall short and be incomplete. its better to accept the whole as it is, that be internally split. so i say strive not for ideals, but strive for the absence of ideals. disolve duality and accept the whole of creation as it is.

ideals are illusion anyways. the world, and our reality could not be any more perfect. if you can see the whole of creation as it is you will realize this is true. in a realm of infinate possibility all actions are equal....and our realm certanly offers infinate possibility.

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Re: Idealism [Re: Whale]
    #7103227 -

Whale said:
as by definition, nothing can be better than the ideal.


if somthing is better, than somthing is worse. if somthing is good, than somthing is bad. and as long as we look out upon the world and call one thing good and another bad, we are creating a system of ideals that we must hold ourselfs to as well, though that is impossible, as good and bad are realitive. you will always be good and bad so long as you see the world as so. the world is an external mirror of our internal headtrip anyway.

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Re: Idealism [Re: Archemetis]
    #7104455 -

Archemetis said:
i think ideals are a damaging or negetive thing always, on some level. as long as you hold ideals in your head you will fall short and be incomplete.


Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. :sorry:

There exists within reality something known as potential. Reality exists in a state of continual change as aspects of reality interact with each other - that is a a fact, you may take it to the bank. Reality transforms itself in this moment, and, quite clearly, we, as human beings, are capable of making decisions as to how reality will manifest, due to our thoughts and through our actions.

Now, holding an ideal does not prevent one from accepting the nature of reality as it is, unless you could kindly demonstrate for us all how precisely it does. I personally consider myself to be a "pratical idealist", for example. I fully accept the totality of the nature of reality as it presents itself to be in this moment. After all, it is reality. The most effective manner in which one can influence reality's course in accordance with one's preferences as to how it will manifest is to operate with an accurate (as much as possible as human beings) representation of what precisely reality is, as it is in this moment, coupled, of course, with a great sense of one's own nature and an understanding of how to most effectively act in accordance with the nature of reality in order to influence its course. :wink:

Idealism, as I see it, is nothing more than intention of what reality is to be. If someone wishes to tell themself that the world is a happy and wonderful place in which no experience of suffering exists, well, that's their choice, but it isn't really idealism - its delusion. Its certainly not practical idealism, anyways. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Idealism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7104888 -

i think what he is saying is that some people believe we have traveled to far down the road of destruction, and that turning back is no longer an option. And he wonders "why not".

John Lennon described his "ideal society" as pepperland. Now pepper land is about 99.99% different from our society. (Maybe only 99.97% if you live in like amsterdam or australia or peru or some badass place like that.) Some people when hearing others desribe their "ideal society" reply, "that is way too ideal". Meaning, "love and peace for everyone? Equality? Grace? Laughter? No religion? No heaven, no hell?.... we are way too far gone you silly dreamer" but i simply reply as lennon himself did, "I'm a dreamer... but im not the only one"


We are miles and miles down the road of destruction, and the hike back would take just as long and be just as tiresome, but it is not too late. There is nothing too late. It is never too late to decide, Love and Peace and Happiness are things worth striving for, because if you are not living for those you are not living for life. And if your not living for life you only awaiting death, and that is a very sad life. Nothing is too ideal, only distant, so distant as to be a dream for now, but we're not the only ones. Here comes the Sun, that is ideal.

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Re: Idealism [Re: beanndip]
    #7105034 -

Pepperland was far from being "prefect". Exactly the reason why it got attacked and almost destroyed that easily. Being a dreamer without being aware can turn into a nightmare rather than a beautiful thing.
What exactly from that dream land seemed so perfect to you? That they were all loving and smiling and so naive that were close to being dumb?
Pepperland was a parable, in my opinion is not to be taken ad litteram but interpreted. If Pepperland was the perfect society (though I doubt it will ever exist since the term perfect itself is so variable), then it would have been undestroyable.
In order to reach that state where there will be no religion, no heaven, hell, equality and all the people sharing the world instead of tearing it apart we need to learn, and we learn from mistakes.
That's exactly what we're doing. Making mistakes, learning, advancing & so on. We're on the process of becoming aware and conscious.

Go back? :what:
Go back to what?
To the initial state humanity was is? How exactly do we establish that? :strokebeard:
How far back do you plan on going?
500 years? 1000? Two, three thousand? Maybe even more? We won't increase in awareness but we'll risk on losing everything we have known until now.
There will always be a "disturbing factor". If we adopt an attitude similar to Pepperland, if we think that being naive will save us, we're dead wrong. How are we supposed to even recognize the "disturbing factor", needles to say facing it, of we're not even able to discern it?

We can keep those high and noble ideals in our minds and still be lucid about what's happening around us. By doing that we can actually make changes and in the same time know when we must protect ourselves.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Idealism [Re: Whale]
    #7105061 -

You can live with ideals....
You can accept that you have created ideals, and live with them....
You can accept that you have created these ideals yourself, and realize that you don't have to live with them....
You can learn to un-create ideals....
You can live without ideals....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Idealism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7105193 -

Quote:
In order to reach that state where there will be no religion, no heaven, hell, equality and all the people sharing the world instead of tearing it apart we need to learn, and we learn from mistakes.
That's exactly what we're doing. Making mistakes, learning, advancing & so on. We're on the process of becoming aware and conscious.



I certainly think mistakes, learning, and advancing are part of ideals as a whole (serving as a road that leads closer to them).
But my question was regarding the learning part:


Quote:
should we always be working towards "ideals", or is the ideal situation to keep a balance between working towards "ideals" and enjoying the possibly lesser good of convenience?



--------------------
IamHeasYouareHeasYouareMeandWearealltogether

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Re: Idealism [Re: Whale]
    #7105232 -

We can always work towards ideals and still remain grounded.
We can still enjoy what we have and in the same time aim for more.
What's exactly the contradiction you're pointing out?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Idealism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7105255 -

I was agreeing with you, but no one was specifically adressing my question...thanks for your input


--------------------
IamHeasYouareHeasYouareMeandWearealltogether

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Re: Idealism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7119792 -

fireworks_god said:
Archemetis said:
i think ideals are a damaging or negetive thing always, on some level. as long as you hold ideals in your head you will fall short and be incomplete.


Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. :sorry:




tell me then, do you or does anyone you'v ever met feel that they have an ideal life? iv never met anyone who was completely content all the time. we human beings tend to think "things would be better if..." or,  "i would be happier if...." or "things should be this way, or that way..." ect.

our ideals keep us from being complete. if one is trully happy and free of suffering, he is okay with the way things are. things are as they should be. he see's that there is nothing to change. why would one desire to change anything unless they have fallen short of some ideal? what im saying is our ideals keep us from happyness here in our immediate expirience.

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Re: Idealism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7119819 -

MushroomTrip said:
We can still enjoy what we have and in the same time aim for more.


how? why would you need more if you truly enjoy what is? the aiming for more means things arent entirely as you would like them to be. desire is the catalyst for suffering. whether it becomes fullfilled or not, because desire remains. it is not unfullfilled desires that cause suffering, it is desire itself, and if we possess it, it will continuously find new outlets to express itself through. true happyness is not conditional.

Edited by Archemetis (07/02/07 02:52 PM)

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Re: Idealism [Re: Archemetis]
    #7119830 -

What you are describing is neurotic attachment to ideals. If one's ideals are fairly realistic, and they are emotionally capable of handling occasionally "falling short" of their ideals, then there is no cause for suffering.

Attachment to things remaining the same, attachment to things changing, any sort of neurotic attachment at all = suffering.

Someone recently described me as a "cynical idealist." I prefer "realistic idealist," but I think that he was describing the same concept. I accept that things are the way they are, and I strive to improve towards my ideals.

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Re: Idealism [Re: Archemetis]
    #7120494 -

Quote:
tell me then, do you or does anyone you'v ever met feel that they have an ideal life?


:smirk:
Depends on what you understand by ideal. I am very happy with my life, from my own subjective points of view.

Quote:
iv never met anyone who was completely content all the time. we human beings tend to think "things would be better if..." or, "i would be happier if...." or "things should be this way, or that way..." ect.


Read above :smirk:

Quote:
our ideals keep us from being complete. if one is trully happy and free of suffering, he is okay with the way things are. things are as they should be. he see's that there is nothing to change. why would one desire to change anything unless they have fallen short of some ideal? what im saying is our ideals keep us from happyness here in our immediate expirience.


Define complete.
Complete = aware.
Complete = on the never ending process of getting to know who you are, accept yourself with all your flaws and qualities and improve yourself through acceptance, not hate or fear. We only are discontent with what we don't know, because we're in fear and don't know how to handle the given situation. To be more specific, it is fear who makes us unable to think straight and then we're unhappy with the choices we make.
We desire to change because we're always aware of the fact that we can do so much better.
We are happy with our lives because we see that we're evolving :mushroom2:

Quote:
how? why would you need more if you truly enjoy what is?


Exactly what I said earlier.
We become aware of the fact that there are an endless number of possibilities from which you can pick, some of them appeal to one's own subjective mind more than others.
This doesn't mean that one has to be dissatisfied with one's current life, it only means that one became aware that one could improve one's life.
You're only unhappy about your life if you have some kind of psychological problem, but this has nothing to do with having ideals.
I consider myself a very idealistic person :mushroom2: and in the same time I am very happy about my current life, which is getting better and better :smirk: :heartpump:

Quote:
the aiming for more means things arent entirely as you would like them to be.


Read above

Quote:
desire is the catalyst for suffering.


No attachment produces trauma and suffering.
Desire is what keeps us moving and advancing and in my opinion it's a very healthy place to be, if we make use of our awareness in the same time.

Quote:
whether it becomes fullfilled or not, because desire remains.


Yes exactly, that's what makes us push our limits and become better persons, grow up and learn from this amazing experience called life :wink:

Quote:
it is not unfullfilled desires that cause suffering, it is desire itself, and if we possess it, it will continuously find new outlets to express itself through. true happyness is not conditional.


It's not desire itself which makes us unhappy, but our own mind that's being unable to adapt.
Even if we face "problems " we have so many options in how to handle them, we can use them as an opportunity for personal growth and being able to learn from those experiences is exactly what makes us more capable of fulfilling our desires :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Idealism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7120897 -

Are we talking about objective ideals and/or subjective ideals?

Thus far I can say I have all my personal ideals are utterly perfect at this point, but as far as society ideals...they could be a little better but I am not going to strive to sweat it. But I will act to make it better. Striving and acting are varying degrees off from each other in my opinion, with striving usually has an element of prediction/premeditation to it, while action is more raw and intuition based. Both have their uses, and I think one must decide which to use at the best time.

Both/And situation I think

Hope this "helps" in anway.

I dunno, maybe I like to hear my self type;-):heart::heart::heart:


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book

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Re: Idealism [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #7120921 -

Can you please tell me what's the difference between those two?
Or better yet, how can you differentiate a subjective ideal from an "objective" one?
Because all the examples you gave: were subjective too. As long as there are feelings/emotions involved it is still subjective.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Idealism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7120971 -

Well of course you can't separate the two entirely, but you can have a consensus, and when working with societal ideals a consensus is what turns it more objective, than subjective.

For instance I can state that Shroomery exists; Technically EVEN that is subjective, however there is a consenus on it so that makes it objective and measurable.

Once it's measurable by a collective, it loses some "inner personal aspects" thus giving more objectivity.

I wasn't trying to separate, as one truly can't.


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book

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Re: Idealism [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #7120984 -

Ok then... what's the difference between "more or less subjective".
It is still there, therefore your entire differentiation between your own good and the society's good, from that POV, has no point in being made.
You want the society's well being because you have certain feelings regarding that :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Idealism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7121060 -

It is geared towards how many people will "agree" on something.

However I will concede that this "discussion" is iherently flawed in that it is cyclical in nature. You and I could go back in forth for eternity.

The only possible avenue for this is that We are both right, and depending on who is CORRECT depends on the best scenario in which the situation is present in. So therefore I would contest this is a Both/And scenario, rather than an either/or.

How can this discussion evolve from a cycical nature, with both of us reaching a consensus as to how this knowledge can be applied?


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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