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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Perfection
    #3921846 - 03/15/05 06:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

In another thread, Swami pointed out the futility in striving towards some mythical ideal like that of Jesus or Hercules, saying that it would only lead to feelings of inferiority or guilt. I believe this is the wrong way of looking at it. Perfection is impossible, but the process of perfection can enrich our lives and make us better people. The destination is not as important as the process of getting there. It gives us a purpose. Once perfection is attained, what reason is there to go on living? It is by striving to be perfect that our lives are given meaning, even though we will never reach that destination.


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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Perfection [Re: Silversoul]
    #3921877 - 03/15/05 06:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i agree entirely. its like trying to achieve an infinite goal. you'll never quite get there, but you will get closer. if today was perfect, there would be no need for tomorrow.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,344
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Re: Perfection [Re: Silversoul]
    #3921914 - 03/15/05 06:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

My thoughts on perfection are embodied in a quote by Theodore Roosevelt:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
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Registered: 10/29/04
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Re: Perfection [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3921927 - 03/15/05 06:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Tell all the people that you see
Follow me
Follow me down
Tell all the people that you see
Set them free
Follow me down
You tell them they don't have to run
We're gonna pick up everyone
Come out and take me by my hand
Gonna bury all our troubles in the sand, oh yeah
Can't you see the wonder at your feet
Your life's complete

Follow me down
Can't you see me growing, get your guns
The time has come
To follow me down
Follow me across the sea
Where milky babies seem to be
Molded, flowing revelry
With the one that set them free
Tell all the people that you see
It's just me
Follow me down

Tell all the people that you see
Follow me
Follow me down
Tell all the people that you see
We'll be free
Follow me down
Tell all the people that you see
It's just me
Follow me down
Tell all the people that you see
Follow me
Follow me down
Follow me down
You got to follow me down
Follow me down
Tell all the people that you see
We'll be free
Follow me down
Tell all the people you see
Follow me
You got to follow me down


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Perfection [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3922148 - 03/15/05 07:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hue and slaphappy,

That was great moving stuff! That was like an anthem for the care free slappy! See the wonder at my feet , yes yes, feet themselves are even wonderful are they not?

I liked the essense of what you shared hue that said to me, just ride your gut feelings into making things happen and if you fuck up or succeed what matters more is that you went for it because few do. Woooooooooooot!!!!!! Screw the guy in the bleachers sitting on his fat ass munching artery clogging hot dogs slurping brain cell killing beer booing at the loosing team.

The loosing team was out there giving it there all, blood sweat and tears backed by years of practice and hard work. Though they didn't win, they exist in a league beyond bleacher man and can still do what he can't. I'd rather be a player who looses giving it my heart and soul then an inactive observing critic  passing judgment over what I myself can not even do.

Regarding the topic in general, I remembered something Jacques said about a broken piece of glass being a perfect broken piece of glass. Man that was gold. Makes the head spin. Even bleacher critic man is perfect at it being just that. WOW! We can't screw up. To perfect imperfection just takes a shift of view.

A fucked up hair cut is a perfect fuck uped hair cut and the stylist was a success at it. I broken leg is a perfect broken leg and the person was a success at breaking it.

Ya know, I think a problem for many all along has been having intentions and expectations of perfection. If we just intended and expected to have experiences then they would always be perfect and successful just as they are. Hot damn shazaaaaaaam.

Then, the only problem you may encounter is not having lived up to anothers expectations and intentions for your experiences and that one is easy to solve as the plan is perfect and we were giving one of these to use :flipthebird: these work too:hug: and so does this human feature :rotfl:

To think all of your fuck ups were perfect fuck ups and you were a success at them. In this light coupled with no intention/expectation other then to have an experience, failure is an impossibility save for the guy who does nothing to experience.

Now I am going to get off my ass and do something like have a work out experience as hubby just finished putting together my new bow-flex so I can create an even more perfect body ha ha as now I know I can't screw up or go wrong in the experience itself. Even if I pull a muscle, it will be a perfectly pulled muscle and I will have been successful at pulling it.  :headbanger:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibletrendalM
King of Asides
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Posts: 19,858
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Re: Perfection [Re: Silversoul]
    #3922182 - 03/15/05 07:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
In another thread, Swami pointed out the futility in striving towards some mythical ideal like that of Jesus or Hercules, saying that it would only lead to feelings of inferiority or guilt.  I believe this is the wrong way of looking at it.  Perfection is impossible, but the process of perfection can enrich our lives and make us better people.  The destination is not as important as the process of getting there.  It gives us a purpose.  Once perfection is attained, what reason is there to go on living?  It is by striving to be perfect that our lives are given meaning, even though we will never reach that destination.




:thumbup:


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BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Perfection [Re: Silversoul]
    #3925340 - 03/16/05 02:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Aim not for perfection, but for perfectionism.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlineegghead1
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Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Perfection [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3925356 - 03/16/05 02:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Aim at nothing, and you will never miss  :grin:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Perfection [Re: egghead1]
    #3925592 - 03/16/05 03:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Aim for the perfect, and you will miss, being perfect..." hahaha
-Unknown :P


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Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Perfection [Re: Silversoul]
    #3925813 - 03/16/05 04:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

In another thread, Swami pointed out the futility in striving towards some mythical ideal like that of Jesus or Hercules, saying that it would only lead to feelings of inferiority or guilt. I believe this is the wrong way of looking at it.

Methinks you misinterpret. I constantly strive for perfection. (One does not get to be a world class backgamon player without constant study and evaluation and striving.) But that is way different than trying to be something that is not in your nature or that is impossible. When I was a kid I, I used to try to leap from the ground to fly like superman. At some point, I realized the futility of such an act as it was not part of human biological potential.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
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Re: Perfection [Re: Swami]
    #3925971 - 03/16/05 04:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Tell that to Michael Jordan.  :smirk:


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Perfection [Re: Jellric]
    #3925979 - 03/16/05 04:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"are you not perfect, is that, the reason why."
-Unknown :P


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlinerepemon
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Registered: 04/25/04
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Re: Perfection [Re: Gomp]
    #3928943 - 03/17/05 04:14 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Everything is perfect.


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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.


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OfflinePsilocinSam
Jester To TheHall Of TheMushroom King

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 87
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Perfection [Re: repemon]
    #3929459 - 03/17/05 09:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Even though each instance may be perfect in itself, it is in the act, rather than the outcome, that the imperfection lies.

If I break my leg, it is a perfect broken leg, and I am a success at breaking my leg. Chances are however that I did not INTEND to break my leg, the action which caused it may have been running in a race, in which case the action I intended on being perfect was ruined and so a failure (and consequentially imperfect).

The shift of perspective is an interesting piece of philosophy, but nothing more, and certainly not applicable to everyday living.

Take a world where EVERYONE lives by that idea:
All actions create A perfect outcome.

Everyone would do nothing, there would be nothing to strive for, since whatever you did would be a perfect SOMETHING, though you have no idea what. What motivation would you have for say writing a book? Because if you achieved it, you would write a perfect book so no one else could ever write one, if you didn't you'd have a perfect bad book, so no one would ever be able to write another bad book.

Once everything has been done twice here there is no need to do it more!! It is in the struggle that consciousness (and soul some might say) is forged. Like a phoenix the human vitality rises from the flames of struggle and overcomes all obstacles to reach it's goal. For me this is the meaning of life, and so I cannot accept the validity of your philosophy. It simply does not add up (for me).

That's my cave of cupboards! :stoned::mushroom2:


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We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Perfection [Re: repemon]
    #3929493 - 03/17/05 09:58 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Everything is perfect.

Uh huh. When you come to Vegas, we will do the Swami "Everything is Perfect" Challenge. We will down some beers at a local club and I will pick the "perfect" one-night-stand partner for you. I know you will not moan or cringe as believe me, she will be "perfect" for you - all 300 lbs of her!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Perfection [Re: Swami]
    #3929523 - 03/17/05 10:10 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ultimately everything is perfect. Relativly everything is suffering.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflinePsilocinSam
Jester To TheHall Of TheMushroom King

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 87
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Perfection [Re: Swami]
    #3929534 - 03/17/05 10:12 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately I can't really get to LV this year, not 21 either. :doh: But I live in the UK, I can drink legally anyway, so I don't really care. :headbang:

Possibly at 50 I'd have expected a little more class in your insults :ass:, guess as usual it was an IMPERFECT insult! :rotfl:

That's my 300 pounds of Swami's-woman! :stoned::mushroom2:


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We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Perfection [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3929582 - 03/17/05 10:32 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately I can't really get to LV this year, not 21 either.

Unfortunately you did not seem to read that my perfect reply was not to you.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Perfection [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3929725 - 03/17/05 11:24 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Being able to shift perspectives allows for flexibility, adaptability and compromise in life. It helps to keep balance. If you stand straight and stiff and I push you, you will fall over and won't be able to get up if you remain stiff. If you can flex when I push you, you may not fall and even if, it only takes a flexing of the body to get back up again.

The stiff on the floor will have a struggle on his hands as he rolls around like a log in able to stand. To rise from the flames like the Phoenix he is going to have to bend and flex to get up again.

The philosophy to shift perspectives, be able to bend, is how we overcome obstacles.

The part about not wanting to anything is non sense. In the philosophy I suggested (in humor-part of the staying flexible) intention to do is still there it just shifts.

In the case of the guy breaking his leg running a race we have two probable intentions. One is to run the race to the best of his ability for that time. The other is to win it. If he breaks his leg, one intention was successful and one failed.

There is a simple difference between intending to have experiences and expecting a new experience versus intending and expecting a set outcome.

Its when we intend specific results and have expectation for them to become achieved that life looses its meaning. If the outcome is already known BEFORE you even set out to accomplish it, why bother?

If everything you set out to do turned out precisely as you pre-planned it to life would get so boring and loose its meaning and reason for being fast. The meaning isn't in the results, its found in the journey to them.

Can I set out o run a race, not finish and be okay? If I can, that means something to me. Do you know how many win and achieve and they are not okay with themselves?

It was never about the results and people who become results oriented miss the boat and end up alienated from life. So much depression, mental disorder and dis-ease including suicide stems from feelings of failure and not being good enough or perfect enough or not living up to their own or anothers expectations.

If you intend to achieve your best without expectations of what that is or can be then you will always succeed.

To tie this up to the original post inspired by swam, if he intends to build the body of Hercules and expects to reach its perfection he is being unrealistic and setting himself up for failure. If he intends to go to the gym every day for 4 hours and build up his muscle mass and intends to have a body building experience expecting his bodies and abilities best(which is an unknown at that point) he is setting himself up for success and perfection in his own right.

He may not end up looking like Hercules but he may end up the buffest guy at the club and the buffests he has ever been and he may also throw his back out in week two and not be able to train anymore and that will be okay if the goal was to go to the gym everyday for four hours and do his best. He can say that he accomplished what he set out to do...have a body building experience to the best of his ability and it was perfect in that.

When perfect results become the object of intention is when all hell breaks loose. To fix and secure unknowns requires cheating, throwing off natural balance, applying destructive pressure forces, and takes away any opportunity for having an authentic and meaningful experience.

I agree that saying everything is perfect as it is can lead to apathy, uncaring, lack of incentive or motivation to strive for something new or different and that can lead to depression and a sense of failure that may sneak up on you.

I think humans need one thing more than any to experience fulfillment and that is a "I can do" attitude. Realizing what we can do and what we are made of brings great fulfillment. That only requires doing to the best of our abilities and living for the experience of doing. That intention can be full filled because the intention involves discovering a yet unknown.

To set expected results instead of an expected experience is how we set ourselves up for failing to achieve the perfection of the expectation. As far as I am concerned, it requires greater discipline to stay in full awareness of an unfolding experience remaining flexible when the unknown factors pop up then it does to stay focused on a finite result. That just takes ignorance and narrow mindedness.

Really Sam, I think you were agreeing with the proponents for perfection in imperfection all along.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/17/05 11:29 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Perfection [Re: Silversoul]
    #3929737 - 03/17/05 11:27 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Fama Fortuna Amore

- so romantic -

...sigh...


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