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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7061985 -

"God is not a spatial reality and is not 'out there.'"

Spacial reality is irrelevant. God is described in all ways as an entity, whether it is "without" or "within", though it is said to be both. The justification for obedience to that entity, at least the only rational justification I've heard, is that the entity is all-powerful and all-knowing. Yet, that entity has given instruction to humans in a direct way, according to your mythology. As such, they have an obligation to question those instructions, lest they blindly give themselves and contribute to a cause which may be unjust. If one were approached directly by God, as your mythology says so many have been, one would not have any positive verification of the omniscience of that being--they would know only that it is a more significant being than they, for it has the power to contact them and direct them through means outside their comprehension.

Supernatural simply means "beyond known nature"--if something is both supernatural and true, then it becomes natural, and it must be judged by the rules we apply to natural phenomena. I refer you again to "On Miracles" by Hume, which is a wonderful elaboration of the first half of this point.


In short, I will tell you that Abraham was a fool first and then a monster for being willing to choose a voice in his head over the life of his son. If you believe in damnation, you should take damnation, for it would not be a just punishment but a crime inflicted upon you by God. It is better to have a crime inflicted upon you than to inflict a crime on another in order to spare yourself.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (06/18/07 02:59 PM)

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7062082 -

That fear and submission that has been imprinted in our minds towards god is the equivalent to what people feel towards the legal systems and the forms of government. Funny how it all transmutes... :smirk:


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7062150 -

As much as I know saying something like this has the potential to diminish me and my arguments, Frank Herbert had a rather good grasp on the relationship between religion and rule.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7062335 -

I have learned philosophical, theological and psychological language games pretty much in order to explicate to myself first, and to anyone else who cares to listen, the more profound implications of the Entheogenic Excursion (formerly, The Psychedelic Experience). I learned how much my own thoughts and beliefs screened me from what is possible. I took to Heart page 19 in BE HERE NOW - "YOU TRUST THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALIZED BEINGS. AND THEY SAID IT & THEREFORE YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE. IT'S NOT INFERENCE ANY MORE. IT'S NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS. YOU JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID. THAT'S FAITH."

Now my own predicament is that the figures illustrated on page 19 all say very different things about the nature of Ultimate Reality, and page 20 of that book convinced me NOT to cut my wrists when in the midst of my (archived here) most 'life-shaking' LSD trip when I was 19 years 360 days old. That page, illustrating a crucified Christ, left a deep impression while connecting up with the Christian Mystery first taught to me by my best friend when I was about 5 or 6 years old. Consciously, I sought through Tibetan Buddhism the rebirth experience that had occurred, and a year or so later, the most 'life-enhancing' experience occurred to me in a Buddhist framework (to this day I wear The Great Mantra of Vajrayana on a bracelet to commemorate that experience in 1974).

I have done, as Mohandas Ghandi called it, 'My Experiments With Truth.' I did not become a Buddhist (or a Hindu), yet in my humble life both the teachings of Buddha and the practice of Hindu Yoga have been of incalculable value. For Mohandas Ghandi, truly a Mahatma (Great Soul), he did not become a Christian, yet is was inspiration taken from the Jesus of the New Testament (not from Buddha) that inspired his non-violent resistence which help free India from colonialism, and set in motion a freedom from millennia-old caste prejudice.

I cannot put an experience of Ultimate Reality in your awareness unfortunately, and I would never claim an exalted title such as Self-Realized or Enlightened for myself, though I would admit that I am quite a bit more enlightened now than I was before I began the quest some 30+ years ago. I have few regrets in life, but the disciplines and self-restrictions that I took on even in my 20s are not among those regrets. Like Solomon who asked for Wisdom and was granted Wisdom plus much more, I have in my own small way made a similar request and I too have received far more in worldly things as well as in experiences than I ever expected or even hoped for. That prayer, even petitionary prayer, works, I can never prove, but I'll affirm its efficacy til my dying day. That seeking an identity as a Child of God has resulted in a balance of my faculties (the Jungian Thinking, Feeling, Intuiting and Sensing functions) and a sound degree of wholeness is again something that I cannot prove, but the 'becoming as a little child' means ever-transcending earlier degrees of wholeness as I move toward Oneness.

What can I say by example? I can write decently on these kinds of topics, and yesterday I completed a very nice looking 75' pressure-treated wooden fence that I built alone, raising each 8' section with my car's jack. Thinking and Sensing functions. Intuition and Feeling would be harder to describe, but you get the point hopefully. A spiritual life must translate into practical results, yet there are synchronicities, responses to prayer, mystical experiences and worldly treasures alike that would, if written down, read like a magickal fiction. That I am convinced is obvious. That I could convince you to experience YOURSELF as The Guru would be my prayer for you.

Peace.

- MtG


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7062426 -

To abandon one's questioning spirit is a kind of death of the mind. To be certain is to be complacent in your ignorance, and I can't really allow that of myself. Enlightenment is a continuous process, and never a state of being.

I am sad to tell you that to me, your words are those of someone who has partaken of some miscellaneous mixture of different flavors of Jonestown Kool-Aid. Some are more interesting than others, but the secret ingredient is always the same.

But, if it pleases you...


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Edited by figgusfiddus (06/18/07 05:16 PM)

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7062672 -

Fortunately for me, I know what I'm talking about - my experience. Unfortunately for you, your reading comprehension of my experience is lacking in the extreme.

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7062909 -

I have yet to try the orange flavor...


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7062994 -

Orange is Buddhism, right?



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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7062999 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Fortunately for me, I know what I'm talking about - my experience. Unfortunately for you, your reading comprehension of my experience is lacking in the extreme.


"You've criticized my statements, and I don't know how to respond. This means you didn't understand me."

Correct me if my interpretation of your post is invalid.

I fail to see how you understanding your experiences makes your interpretation of them any less crazy (though I concede that it is the commonest kind of crazy).


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Edited by figgusfiddus (06/18/07 08:15 PM)

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7063028 -

Quote:
YOU TRUST THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALIZED BEINGS. AND THEY SAID IT & THEREFORE YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE. IT'S NOT INFERENCE ANY MORE. IT'S NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS. YOU JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID. THAT'S FAITH.


I did and all I ever saw was very flawed beings pretending to have attained some elevated state in order to have power over others. Now, I no longer believe until such time that I meet a man or woman who manifests an inner light.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7063444 -

But you are looking to the appearances of 'other' beings for validation. The game is to become that which one seeks. Looking outside of oneself merely increases the sense of separateness and that the answer or the solution is somehow 'external' to yourself.

When I was 12, I wanted to be Hugh Hefner but there already was a Hugh Hefner.
When I was 20, I wanted to be God after a number of high level LSD trips, but that was less realistic than wanting to be Hugh Hefner.
At last I realized that what I should seek to become was the genuine Mark, beneath the layers of programming and beneath my own mistaken social and self-identities. This path has proven to be fulfilling in the long run - living between the extremes of selfish instinctual gratification and an asexual life of renunciation like Hesse's Steppenwolf.

I visited different schools or Masters: 3HO Kundalini, Sri Chinmoy, Pir Vilayat, Swami Satchidanada, even the Divine Light Mission. I was in teacher-training for TM, about to be initiated by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. I dropped out of TM, got baptized and sought Christ within. I never searched for my Guru (though I was fascinated with Neem Karoli Baba and loved Autobiography of a Yogi).

There have been others at this forum who were seriously disillusioned by their adherence to other human beings and then felt stupid for their innocent and enthusiastic devotions. Never wanting to be a Guru to anyone but myself, I set out to become (to the best of my ability and with grace given me) the kind of being that I would want to encounter 'out there' in the world. I believe that this is the real path even now.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7066458 -

If god exists and is all knowing and has a a mystical plan that is beyond understanding , how can we as humans (limited by our spectrum of perceptions) have the arrogance to presume we understand god?

If prayer gives you comfort, let it be so.

It is only in luxury that we can philosophies about these concepts. We have time and are trying to find meaning in our existence. Surely this desire creates a biased way of obtaining the 'truth'. Therefore we cannot trust our perceptions of god as we see him/her through the eyes of humanity.

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: Williamsii]
    #7066725 -

Understanding is one of the spheres that belongs to the Supernal Triangle - to the Divine Itself - in Kabbalah. There, Understanding is called Binah. To me that means that Understanding is a Transcendental attribute in this context. It is not the same kind of understanding that one has when one finally gets how to do a math problem. It is not a cognitive analysis of the Divine Plan.

God is only 'perceived' via Intuition (using the Jungian functions in my response: Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, Intuiting). People with a strong Intuitive function are attracted to certain types of awareness. I have the same INTP typology as C.G. Jung did, and I too am drawn to the intuitive understanding of the mystics and gnostics. Even those with less pronounced Intuition can learn to strengthen that function if it is an 'inferior' function in one's constitution. It is the function that allows one to "see around corners" so-to-speak. I have come to trust it (like so many blind martial arts masters in film) in order to make life decisions. It is the function through which methods of divination seem to 'work,' and it is through Intuition that one gets a sense of certitude about petitionary prayer, or not.

So here, I am advocating for the mechanism through which humans may interface with Transcendental 'directives.' It is not a Thinking function that is operative. That truly would be arrogant to the point of delusional paranoia - discerning by Thinking the 'thoughts of God' indeed!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7066941 -

Jibberish is jibberish, even when it's 4000-year old jibberish.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7067272 -

Quote:
I set out to become (to the best of my ability and with grace given me) the kind of being that I would want to encounter 'out there' in the world. I believe that this is the real path even now.



Sounds like a good personal guideline. :thumbup: (no mocking here)

However, I must ask, does a timber wolf (or substitute animal of your choice) try to become other than what it already is? Must it become the uber-wolf or is it enough that it mate, kill sheep and chop wood?

Is not any form of self forcing or molding a type of neurosis? To want to be 'there' when you are 'here'?


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7067750 -

It's probably the most common, most pointless, and most misleading neurosis ever created. It's the "meaning of life" mentality.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7067921 -

figgusfiddus said:
Jibberish is jibberish, even when it's 4000-year old jibberish.


The Arabic author Jabir ibn Hayyan, whose Latinized name became Geber (born 721 CE) was the Middle Eastern alchemist who most influenced Western alchemy. He is perhaps best known for his symbolism of Sulfur, Mercury and Salt, representing the tripartite human constituency of spirit, soul and body.

Moderator edit: Removed inappropriate comments in violation of the forum rules.

Edited by fireworks_god (06/21/07 06:41 PM)

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7068021 -

The first response that comes to mind is couched in Kabbalistic terms, but not anyone's terms. What comes to mind is this little bool for $4.98 from B&N by Will Parfitt. Now, Kabbalism may not be your current interest, and I've read a lot of books on the subject not to mention used the glyph of the Tree of Life, but your question is simple and strightforward, and it can be answered by the idea of working the paths on the Tree, particularly a radical shift from where most people are identified (the "wolf" here) to the "uberwolf" (there).

We are, until this shift occurs, 'stuck' in what is called "The Astral Triangle. What you are asking is how to identify oneself with "The Ethical Triangle." I hate to use jargon that may not be familiar but...Aleister Crowley, borrowing language from Eliphas Levi called this shift the "Knowledge and Conversation of One's Holy Guardian Angel." Awkward and out of place I know, but it is the shift from the first three chakras to the fourth chakra, from the Earth (centers) to the Sun as it were. Instead of being Earthly and looking 'at' the Sun, we Realize that we are the Sun, and we henceforth see our former identity as a bundle of personality dynamics external to our true Self which we nurture and abide with (and, in which our neuroses are located) from a New Center of Pure Witnessing Awareness. I am still "here" but I have also been "there" for a long time, and I Know which remains and which perishes, so I chose sides long ago.



Now, I am not so out of this world that I do not live in my body, but I do understand the alchemical separations of my being, and at certain special times, I practice experiencing my Witnessing Spirit. As Paul allegedly wrote:

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." - 2 Corinthians 4:7


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7076807 -

figgusfiddus said:
Jibberish is jibberish, even when it's 4000-year old jibberish.


It couldn't be any more jibberish than your assertion that it is jibberish. Why should anyone consider your conclusion without any substantiation? :what:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7077450 -

Substantiation of the notion that alchemy is nonsense? Okay, I'll leave that one up to the readers--I think it's self-evident, I think most people realize that it is self-evident, and as such I don't see any purpose in elucidating. Generally speaking, it is the least accepted conclusion--in this case the reality of alchemy, numerology--that requires a defense.

For anyone who doesn't know what "alchemy" means (which to me, aside from subscribing to the Church of the Loon, is the only reason one might not immediately realize its insanity): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy - A basic but essentially accurate history lesson.


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