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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
Leader of theHashishins

Registered: 09/12/03
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Loc: Alamut
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation
    #2120204 - 11/18/03 04:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, it's true, and it makes perfect sense.
Anyone read Fulcanelli's "Les Mysteries De Cathedrales"
Now read it knowing that he's talking about growing mushrooms.
In the book he call's alchemy "celestial agriculture," but the kicker is that he says alchemists have devised a way to lead materialistic people away from the truth.
What better way to do that than to tell everyone you're trying to change lead to gold, they would try it for life, but never pull it off. The spiritualistic man will be able to decipher the code, and see that materialism is not what you want, and then PLOOOH! it hits him, I'm trying to GROW the elixir of life. Anyone agree or disagree, I will be able to back up my thoughts.
I can honestly say that I feel kind of bad about taking the lid off of the secret, the number one rule of the adept is to KEEP SILENT, but I can say that I don't think it matters anymore.


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Offlinejiva
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2120657 - 11/18/03 07:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i heard thats what this "philosophers stone" actually is.

http://www.futurehorizons.net/strange.htm


--------------------
i am another you


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: jiva]
    #2120772 - 11/18/03 08:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes.. of course.. it's all about mushroom cultivation! Oh wait, let me see... there's nothing at all specific or literal in alchemical texts about actually cultivating mushrooms.. Let's see, that puts a damper on my theorizing.. No, wait, I've got the solution! It's all part of an extremely complex and unlikely conspiracy theory! Yes, that's it!

Actually, Mr. Guy what the alchemists put in their texts was a thing to mislead people who believe the world is based on their own ridiculous self-centered ideas. These people read the texts and interpret them to be about whatever they are interested in (in this case mushrooms) not realizing that the world is larger than their computer screen. Of course, these people (you) miss the REAL message of the alchemists, which, I'm afraid, is beyond you. Good night.


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2120797 - 11/18/03 08:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Please continue, I'm interestd. I know the alchemist were wizards and later after Christianity took root in Europe they had to hide their witchcraft through alchemy or be burned at the stake for their beliefs and knowledge.

later


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2120901 - 11/18/03 09:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i think ol' rabbit disease (mix..) is fairly accurate here, alchemy goes a lot deeper than munching shrooms.

tho please support your views, i'm interested in why you think this.



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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2121624 - 11/19/03 02:48 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Slow down a little mixomatosis, I think it would be better to ease into a response like that. First off, you would have to expect that the alchemists never wrote about "mushroom cultivation" outright, like I said before, keeping their secret was their first law. You expect them to just come right out and say that they are really talking about growing mushrooms? That would do away with the whole idea of them hiding the true meaning of alchemy from materialistic impostors. Lots of alchemists can be quoted as saying that when they write clearly, it is when they are trying to hide the most. Almost all of the alchemical literature deals with making the elixir of immortality, and you are trying to say that they were really talking about nothing? All that talk about concocting an ambrosia is really so that people can make up what they want about it? I'm afraid that makes no sense to me.
It is beyond doubt that alchemists have made the elixir of immortality, and always they say that it came to them as an epiphany. They had studied for lifetimes, and all of a sudden it made perfect sense to them how to do it. This sounds a lot like realizing that the elixir will never bring material happiness, and that it is not a concoction to give you supernatural powers, that is obviously an egoistic idea. They studied the literature, when the thought occured to them that maybe the elixir was a plant, it made sense. The alchemists studied mythology hardcore, which is chock full of plants fo immortality, and mushrooms, read some Wasson. They also called the bible the "Great Work", which has some "super-plants" in it (like manna), it is also busting at the seams with references to mushrooms, read some Allegro.
Which seems like it makes more sense, my idea that the alchemists actually did something, or yours were they really just hold the title alchemist and are philosophers. The problem is that the Psychedelic mushrooms would be the epitome of an "elixir of immortality" to any philosopher. It is universal among thinkers that anything dealing with the material should be given up, so why would the alchemist spend so much time talking about turning common metal into gold, except to hide their true meaning. This is my ultimate overview of alchemy. By studying the texts, and performing the abstinences and other rites that go along with being an alchemist, they learn self-discipline. That allows them to take the elixir of immortality without dying or what not, it is written in all types of alchemical works that only the most righteous could ingest the elixir and survive (or come back sane). So, first off, of course I agree with you that alchemy is a philosophy, that is apparent. Secondly, I think that you were a little too rash in your response, you wrote that like you knew me or something, trying to put me down and sound smart, especially with that ending, where did you learn to deal with people? Third, I agree that the world is not based on my ridiculous self-centered ideas, and alchemy obviously preaches that, but you are trying to say that it is like an ink-blot test, see whatever you want, and to me that is a cop-out to the true genius of these men. You try to claim that all their teachings are symbolic of nothing, no true underlying meaning, or if there is one it is, don't think you are special. Why would so many men for so long a time write texts on the same stuff over and over just to say that, you would think that just that one statement would have been enough. All the religions preach righteousness, why would the alchemists preach that in such an odd style? I believe there must be a reason for it, whereas you do not. Alchemy is kind of like a mandala, with three different meanings all hidden in the same thing. It has an exterior meaning, turning something naturally tainted into perfection. It has an interior meaning, which is that the human soul is what you will rise to perfection, through your steps and actions. But it also has a secret meaning, which is how to cultivate the one thing that will help you the most on your path, a hallucinogenic plant. I am of the opinion that you, mixomatosis, were the one who couldn't understand the REAL message of the alchemists. It seems like you gave up after the interior meaning.
Frankly, it sounds to me like you know nothing about alchemy, and you just read your thoughts in your thread from some book that couldn't understand it.


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2121628 - 11/19/03 02:50 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yeas, it's true, I know nothing about alchemy. but that's beside the point..


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2121648 - 11/19/03 03:00 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What about the sorcerers stone being the "mushroom stones" or Sclerotia (sp?). You know hard mycelium. I was talking to this guy today who refered to finding "magic stones" when he was refering to hard mycelium in the woods. I think it was a conocybe?. Maybe.

Edit: Don't let these guys bring you down. I just got my balls busted for my beliefs on this site as well. Aparently, this place is made up of logicians and scientists not philosophers and spritualist. Not all have acted this way. I have actually met a few cool people so far. Just a few bad apples that spoiled my fun. Just a general randomization from a few personal experiences in the few days I have been here. So please continue I have always thought the alchemist were Trippers in disguise.

Medicinebag


Edited by medicinebag (11/19/03 03:11 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: medicinebag]
    #2121683 - 11/19/03 03:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What about the sorcerers stone being the "mushroom stones" or Sclerotia (sp?).
Please provide one single historical reference for this.

*whining deleted* So please continue I have always thought the alchemist were Trippers in disguise.
Alchemists were forerunners of modern chemists and metallurgists. There is no known link to psychedelic usage.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2122030 - 11/19/03 09:13 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

you still haven't provided any evidence that the alchemists grew or even consumed shrooms. how about some quotes, pictures or references to support your theory?

probably the largest databases of alchemical texts and art are here -
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/index.html
and here-
http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/

go for it, i'm not saying your wrong, i just wanna see some real evidence, other than "it is obvious.."

as far as i understand it 'the philosophers stone' refers to the transformation of the pineal gland during certain mental states.
the pineal gland is sometimes known as 'brain sand', if you squash one in your hands and rub it, it has a texture like that of sand. the grains are of a crystalline nature, during said mental states the grains 'allign' and the gland is said to have the appearance of a small stone. check out microphotography of crystals to get the idea.

the laboratory is one's mind and body, the philosophers stone is made in there. it cannot be bought , sold nor hidden in a vault.

Quote:

It is beyond doubt that alchemists have made the elixir of immortality



which alchemists? when? are they still alive now? do they have a homepage?
there are many things to learn from alchemy but it is full of traps, tread carefully.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: mr crisper]
    #2122851 - 11/19/03 03:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Just a few bad apples that spoiled my fun."

hehe yeah it's tough when people don't agree with you.


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2125017 - 11/20/03 02:15 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Here goes nothing,
I had a really long reply going on, with some quotes from Fulcanelli and what not, talking about how the process must start in "The Dew of May", and him noting that the "Dew of May" corresponds to spring time, and the reason that it must start in springtime is for the high humidity, along with some other weird references to growing mushrooms, but I decided to scrap it.

Mixomatosis, I read some of your thoughts and stuff on this site, and I realized that I don't usually get a long with people like you. In your thread on the Aztecs, you say that you started the thread so that you could prove people wrong, "And my condemning the Aztecs for their atrocities is a tactical manoeuver to bring out people who disagree so I can make my point." Maybe you should try stating your point clearly, that way you don't sound like such a jack-ass when you jump on people for falling into the trap you've laid for them.

The reason that I decided not to post the quotes from Fulcanelli and others is that I have recently found out that, alas, my idea is not original. I guess I should have known, but there are some books on it, "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy" by the great Clark Heinrich, and "Elixir: An Alchemical Study of the Ergot Mushrooms" by William Scott Shelley. Thanks to my taxes, and Ohio's wonderful library system (whose budget was cut by a whopping $40,000,000 just last year), I have been able to get my hands on both of these books.

Mixomatosis, if you read both of those books and still think your lame-brained theory about alchemists is correct, you could be a genuine retard. Also, there is nothing stopping you from acquiring them, except a library card, which it sounds like you probably have. (I still respect learned people, and it seems like you know a lot about SOME things, like the Aztecs)

It has been said that you will find what you're looking for in whatever you're thinking about at the time, that was the view of mixomatosis, but I have come to think that people want alchemy to have no secret teaching, because their writings make no sense literally. To me, it would be harder to think that the alchemists were really dealing with metals the whole time, than to be able to see that all they talk about points directly to mushrooms.

To Mr Crisper,
You show me one place in any alchemical literature that shows plainly and clearly how to concoct the elixir of immortality so that any one of us could do it right now, and I will show you where they are talking directly about mushrooms. Also, I'm genuinely interested in the idea that the pineal gland might have something to do with it. It makes no sense to me how people thousands of years ago would know the function of the pineal gland, or even that it was really there, or how any alchemical literature would relate to that thought. That doesn't mean it couldn't be true, though. Could you point me to where you acquired that idea? I got a kick out of your questions as to whether or not any alchemist had ever made the elixir. Would you think that thousands of people, over thousands of years, that all studied the same thing, were never successful? That movement would probably have not lasted long. If you were to read some alchemical texts, you would find that almost all of them were successful, that is how they can write the steps for making it. The funny thing is, though, that there have only been a handful of accounts, all from less than reputable sources, that claim anyone has ever changed a base metal into gold.
"do they have a homepage?" I can't help but crack a smile to that.
And if you still want to see some real evidence, get those books, it woud be a very daunting task to try and summarize those works on this message board.

To Swami,
I didn't make that claim about Sclerotia being the philosopher's stone, so I can't provide any historical references to it, in fact, I don't think that is true, although I would like to know where medicinebag read that.
If you think that an alchemist was just a chemist/metallurgist you must not know anything about them. An "alchemist" in the social context is one who deals with metals and chemistry, and that is probably what you were thinking when you wrote that, but like mixomatosis said, they were really philosophers, not just some glorified blacksmiths. To say that an alchemist had no preoccupation with anything divine is wrong, no doubt.

In conclusion, I wrote the original post after reading an alchemical text which has tons of references and symbolism that the true elixir is a psychedelic fungus, or at least a psychedelic plant of some sort. I wrote my thoughts about the discovery on this message board, and proceeded to get flamed by people who know nothing about alchemy, and have PROBABLY never read any alchemical literature or texts about the alchemical literature (except for medicinebag, you're still cool). So to back up my statement, I did some independant research and found that, indeed, the ancient alchemists were really studying mushroom cultivation. If anyone still doubts me, then listen to some smarter people talk about it, like Heinrich.

Recommended literature on the above subject:
"Le Mystere des Cathedrales" by Fulcanelli, english translation copyrighted 1971
"The Elixir: An Alchemical Study of the Ergot Mushrooms" by William Scott Shelley
"Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy" by Clark Heinrich
All availible from the U.S. Library System.


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2125102 - 11/20/03 02:52 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

ok, well here's the question: why did the alchemists need to cultivate fungi? What native european magic mushrooms are there that they could have cultivated?

It's a very nice theory that you and those authors have come up with, but its missing one ingredient: Practicality. What would be the point of cultivating fungi? Why not just go pick them? And why would something as impractical as growing magic mushrooms in the middle ages be a tradition carried on through the generations?

Point me to a tech that the alchemists came up with for growing some mushrooms. My original theory that you're just reading into the a-literal writings of the alchemists and interpreting it one of thousands of ways stands.

"you say that you started the thread so that you could prove people wrong"

Hey, quit spinning. Like I said in the quote, I wanted to make a point. It just so happens that to do so other people are essential as my point is made through a dialogue. So what you're saying about me is only half-true.


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2125283 - 11/20/03 04:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What about the sorcerers stone being the "mushroom stones" or Sclerotia (sp?).
Please provide one single historical reference for this.


Swami,

It was a suggestion, an idea. I was not stating a fact. Only a suggestion. You, sir, like to argue so much sometimes you just argue to see your own words on a screen. I am sure you will try to turn that quote around against me, as well. Later. Holmes.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2125296 - 11/20/03 04:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
It's a very nice theory that you and those authors have come up with, but its missing one ingredient: Practicality. What would be the point of cultivating fungi? Why not just go pick them?




Ja, why would it be practical to grow mushrooms in your own house? I think it is time for me to go over to the Mushroom Cultivation Cultivation forum and start telling them to go out and pick the mushrooms instead, because it isn't practical to grow them by yourself.

Fuck, man, who defines what is practical or not? If these alchemists where indeed growing mushrooms, and I see that as being possible, I am sure it wouldn't be a practical thing to do as seen by the serfs slaving in the fields all day. Or something. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2125596 - 11/20/03 06:32 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"I think it is time for me to go over to the Mushroom Cultivation Cultivation forum and start telling them to go out and pick the mushrooms instead"

There are lots of good reasons to grow magic mushrooms in your own house in the modern world.

-Mushroom spore companies ship within days to any location on the planet (excluding Georgia and California).

-Sterile technique is very plausible thanks to syringes, antibacterial solutions, alchohol. These items would have be about as hard to get as liberty caps in a field.

-We can all get psilocybe cubensis easily, whereas the Europeans would be unable to procure this species. This is signifigant because there are very few other easy shrooms to grow.

-We have temperature control at the tip of our fingers.

-In my area liberty caps grow abundantly in certain areas but it's a very sketchy situation because everybody knows about the mushroom hunt, from hell's angels to farmers to cops. Back then nobody would have had an idea what you were up to, so why bother grow them? I wouldn't if I could go up to well-known lib field B and pick garbage bags full without anybody raising an eyebrow.

"I am sure it wouldn't be a practical thing to do as seen by the serfs slaving in the fields all day."

Of course not, the serfs, being in the fields all day, would be picking their own mushrooms.

Well, hasan, the ball's in your court. I apologize in advance for forcing you to defend (thereby strengthening) your theory and think critically about your own ideas.






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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2125902 - 11/20/03 09:20 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You show me one place in any alchemical literature that shows plainly and clearly how to concoct the elixir of immortality so that any one of us could do it right now, and I will show you where they are talking directly about mushrooms



why should i have to do that, you are the one who said 'it is beyond doubt alchemists have concocted the elixir..'
i questioned this statement that you made. you are the one making the big claims, i'm the one asking for references, quotes, etc in support of your theories. pull your finger out.

Quote:

I got a kick out of your questions as to whether or not any alchemist had ever made the elixir. Would you think that thousands of people, over thousands of years, that all studied the same thing, were never successful? That movement would probably have not lasted long.



so where are these 'thousands of people' now? if they were successful at making the elixir of immortality, they would be alive now, would they not? they must be bored or insane by now.
large numbers of people and long periods of time are not valid arguments to the authenticity of your theories. millions of people took the biblical creation story literally for nearly 2000 years, and some still do. does that make it true?

Quote:

The funny thing is, though, that there have only been a handful of accounts, all from less than reputable sources, that claim anyone has ever changed a base metal into gold.




the formulas for producing gold are the most important in alchemical texts, if you think they are talking literally about gold as a shiny metal, you are not getting it at all.


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2125974 - 11/20/03 09:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There are lots of good reasons to grow magic mushrooms in your own house in the modern world.

-Mushroom spore companies ship within days to any location on the planet (excluding Georgia and California).

-Sterile technique is very plausible thanks to syringes, antibacterial solutions, alchohol. These items would have be about as hard to get as liberty caps in a field.

-We can all get psilocybe cubensis easily, whereas the Europeans would be unable to procure this species. This is signifigant because there are very few other easy shrooms to grow.

-We have temperature control at the tip of our fingers.


Mix,

Psilocybin containing mushrooms exist in the "old world". Mushrooms have been cultivated sinse before electricity. Mushroom cultivation was performed in the 1800's so why not farther back into history? They had glass, steam, and grain and who knows they probably were the first to figure out how to make agar from either pig fat or a plant. Pig fat or glycerin is what Jello is composed of. Most use seaweed agar as a substitute for Jello because of religious belifs concearning pork. So it is very plausable for someone to grow mushrooms with out "modern" technology. Also, if the sorcerers stone was hard mycelium then that would be why it was so prized. One back then would need some Hard Mycelium or Magic Stones to start a culture. I have no proof only a suggestion.


Edited by medicinebag (11/20/03 09:52 PM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: medicinebag]
    #2128464 - 11/22/03 12:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

ok I didn't know that about mushroom cultivation, but my point remains. I still don't see the practicality, especially not when considering the species the europeans would have to work with. With all the fields potentially containing liberty caps and the shelf life of libs, I doubt you'd need to look farther to satisfy your psychedelic appetite.


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2128528 - 11/22/03 01:17 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah,

I don't know. I suppose why don't we all just pick them instead of grow them. Maybe, because if we grow them we have an almost endless supply versus picking. I don't know. The Mazatecs ran out every season and had to use Salvia and Morning Glories to get them buy. They were most definately Foragers and not Growers of mushrooms.


Edited by medicinebag (11/22/03 02:53 AM)


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: mr crisper]
    #2128706 - 11/22/03 04:15 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

mr crisper,

"Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You show me one place in any alchemical literature that shows plainly and clearly how to concoct the elixir of immortality so that any one of us could do it right now, and I will show you where they are talking directly about mushrooms.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
why should i have to do that, you are the one who said 'it is beyond doubt alchemists have concocted the elixir..'"
I can see that you didn't understand what I said. The truth is there isn't a single alchemical test that shows PLAINLY and CLEARLY how to concoct the elixir of immortality (Ever read one?) and my interpretation of their super-symbolic wacked-out crazy writing is that they are talking about a psychedelic mushroom.

"i'm the one asking for references, quotes, etc in support of your theories."
That is why I put a bibliography at the end of my last post, along with the reason why I wouldn't quote them. If you're geniunely interested, then pick them up at the library.

"if they were successful at making the elixir of immortality, they would be alive now, would they not?"
The alchemists symbolically called their creation the "elixir of immortality", along with hundreds of other things (Ever read one?). I would hope that you didn't think I was literally talking about making a potion that would force the human body to never die, because if you thought that, you must not have known that the whole point of this thread was to show how I think the "elixir of immortality" is a psychedelic mushroom.

"large numbers of people and long periods of time are not valid arguments to the authenticity of your theories. millions of people took the biblical creation story literally for nearly 2000 years, and some still do. does that make it true?"
I already explained how they devised a way for there not to be any successful "fake" alchemists (the literalist). True alchemy isn't like an institutionalized religion with weak lambs paying tribute for their peace of mind. To be a genuine alchemist, you must actually practice it, unlike some other religions, like Christianity, Catholicism, and Judaism (among others). In other words, there weren't really any lay-people. If you were an alchemist, it was a profession, like a priest or a monk, for it was a lifelong study. So in this instance I could use that argument to prove my theory. You provided an instance where that kind of argument would not work.

"the formulas for producing gold are the most important in alchemical texts, if you think they are talking literally about gold as a shiny metal, you are not getting it at all."
I'm not even sure if you actually read my posts before you wrote that because if you didn't know it by now I really believe that they weren't actually talking about literal gold at all but really PSYCHEDELIC MUSHROOMS!!!!! I would hope I made that clear. Maybe you didn't understand the word reputable? The point was that out of all the alchemists ever, there has never been a single documented case where someone turned base metals into gold in front of a substantial number of respectable people. I was trying to show that it is hard to believe alchemy really deals with literally turning base metals into to gold. It somewhat strengthens my argument that they were symbolically dealing with something other than what they were literally talking about.


I would like to reply to everyone, but it's late. I'll write more after a night of sleep, AAAHHHH, sleep . . .


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What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2131534 - 11/24/03 01:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

So far, this is what Medicinebag "Sees".

Mushroom stones, hard mycelium is way for someone to store their mycelium cultures over winter. Datura was being utillized in the old world. Datura Salves require pig fat to be whipped up into gello. Why not whip up the pig fat, then distill it, then you get glycerin. Add a pinch of sawdust then you got nitroglycerin, LOL Fight Club. anyway, Pig fat, can be whipped up into Gelatin to make a crude Agar. It is very plausable to grow mushrooms as far back as their was Glass. Does anyone agree?


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: medicinebag]
    #2134490 - 11/25/03 11:13 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

With a little help and conversation with my newly found friend medicinebag, I have got some updates to my initial post.
In all of the alchemical texts they talk about the what to start with, but never actually say what it is. They called it "Mercurius", among other things, but they hint that it is like real mercury but not the same thing, and was related to the moon in some way. The Sclerotia of mycelium is like a small ball that is kind of hard, and to quote medicinebag "found in the woods under a known mushroom (edible and hallucinagenic) patch by people for later indoor cultivation." They are the little white balls in potting soil, if I'm correct, and they resemble the moon pretty damn closely. The weird thing is that the ball is close, if not one of the only things in nature, that could be symbolical of mercury and the moon. It has a silvery/grey tint to it, and (I think) will break down into a kind of jelly if heated in water, or with steam (or maybe with flame). The alchemical texts talk about how you must heat up the "Mercurius" and get it to absorb some things for it to be able to turn into the "elixir." In my private conversation with medicinebag he said "The agar is only a base and other ingredients have to be added to the heated agar before it cools, like, blood, malt, potatoes, rice, all kinds of stuff that mushrooms can grow on." That is very interesting . . . .
I did not know what he was getting at with the agar/pig fat thought, but after some explanation, it could be the missing link. Basically, agar is the stuff in petri dishes, but you can make close to the same thing by heating up pig fat, and skimming off the glycerin that rises to the top. The glycerin is then a substrate that could be used to cultivate mushrooms. The cool thing is, though, that it would require quite alot of steps to prepare the pig fat, and sterilize it (along with the other added stuff), so that the mushrooms would grow uncontaminated. That is where the alchemical texts come in. It is my opinion that some of the steps in alchemy are really talking about preparing and sterilizing the medium your elixir will grow on. Medicinebag said "One last thing>ALCOHOL>STERILITY> they had Glass, Steam, Agar, Grain, and Alcohol." That is why the alchemists talk about the tools needed for the transformation, and all of them involve a special furnace of some kind (glass beakers), a special liquid needed to "purify the putrid mass" (alcohol), and the kicker, they use a special kind of heat that they describe as being composed of water (steam). They also talk of "special salts" that should be added to the concoction, and medicinebag said "Pig fat/jello agar can be used if you knew exactly how to lower the ph of the pigs blood with some gypsom," and gypsom could be called a "special salt" for it has some of the same properties.
This might need to turn into a research paper, or a book. Once again, I must give a shout-out to medicinebag for relating to me his thoughts on this topic. I had been racking my brain to make the final connection, really just what all the intermediate steps could be symbolic of. I could kind of see the beginning, and the finished product, but I failed to be able to explain the middle steps. I was looking for ways of mushroom cultivation that could be represented in the texts, but I was really only thinking of modern techniques. It seeems that medicinebag is some what of a historo-mycologist, and explained to me how they used to cultivate mushrooms about 200 years ago with simple technology. The thing is that everything they had 200 years ago, they had farther back than that, and there is nothing stopping a person living in 0 A.D. from cultivating mushrooms, except how to do it. That is where the alchemists come in. They knew how to do it, but couldn't tell the masses for fear of their own lives. Remember that almost anything not "Christian" was heresy, and heretics got killed, especially ones that eat a hallucinogenic substance that they claim gives them immortality (of the mind). That is why they wrote the way they did, so that if someone really was spiritual and righteous, they could decipher their codes and consume the ultimate "plant of god".
Thanks again medicinebag, none of this would have ever fit if you didn't take the time to write me about your ideas.
Thoughts anyone?


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2134904 - 11/25/03 02:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Pig fat/jello agar can be used if you knew exactly how to lower the ph of the pigs blood with some gypsom,

Just for a clarification, I meant Raise the ph not lower. The blood agar would have a low ph and gypsum is a base that will raise the ph. Just for a clarification. Good luck. Do some more research on Musrhoom Cultivation in France. Later.

Also:
They are the little white balls in potting soil, if I'm correct,

No. Sclerotia is not the little white balls in potting soil> That is Perlite. It is used for water retention. But, Sclerotia looks like a ball but not necesarilly spherical. It is white with some browns in it from surrounding soil. BUt basically , you are correct with the moon asumptions and it being White. I just wanted to clarify that so no one would jump all over you about it. Good Luck. Later.


Edited by medicinebag (11/25/03 02:36 PM)


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: medicinebag]
    #2135225 - 11/25/03 04:37 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the clarification medicinebag, sorry about that.
Here's a picture of Sclerotia

Still kind of fits the bill doesn't it?


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4733209 - 09/29/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

bump, because goddamn it's been a long time


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What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4733604 - 09/29/05 10:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

  Only us latter day Alchemists see it that way  :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4735312 - 09/30/05 07:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

interesting.. however I refuse to believe that alchemy revolved around something as simple as a mushroom.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: kotik]
    #4735331 - 09/30/05 07:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Historical alchemy had nothing to do with mushrooms, but history is still in the making and psychedelics are [tongue-in-cheek] the Philosophers' Stone. Very pure LSD apparently is phosphorescent in the dark because of the Phosphorus element. Reminds me of a picture in my library of the alchemist Hennig Brand discovering Phosphorus.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4736644 - 09/30/05 02:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread is great. Nice pic, Markos.

Anokhi? Suspected to be a mushroom (by none other than Philip K. Dick) used by a jewish sect (Jesus') to achieve immortality. 'Anokhi' refers to pure self-awareness. Not my ideas...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4737587 - 09/30/05 06:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's ODD:eek:...I just got to pages 80-81 in The Transmigration of Timothy Archer by P.K. Dick which brings up "anokhi. "Hmmmm, one of those interesting coincidences again. I don't usually read fiction, but I just bought the Valis trilogy because of my interest in Dick's treatment of gnosticism.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4738302 - 09/30/05 09:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ha! I had to pull out the transmigration book just to look up those pages! Syncronicity!


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4738321 - 09/30/05 09:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Seeing as we live in a world of information, and information is transmuted as ideas in the form of language, and seeing as the world is false but real but fabric, there are many threads, and threads weave and webs... and I've been drinking alcohol so I can attribute a higher significance to your own...

...and the world of information is beautiful! Wonderful!


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"A Bad Day for Pants"


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OfflineNignugnot
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4740326 - 10/01/05 10:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I can't finish reading this post so I'm going to put my though in early... Why does the elixer of immortality have to me material? I'll give anyone points for the idea that early humans really only thought of material things but if these nigs tripped like what has been offered, they would be open for new ideas. As to the strain, I think you would do better if you found out the strain in Inda and China and would then know where abouts the euro found thier strain. I once was chilling with Jack Herer and he handed me chapters from his new book. I forget what the title is but his new book is his explanation of religion as seen through him and his 2 years of taking Amineta Muscaria and Amanieta Pansceria mushrooms and his one trip of the proper reciepe for tripping Amanietas(soma in his book). Anyway I gots to eat pace nigs.


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I'm an asymtope, neva gonna catch me!


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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4740425 - 10/01/05 11:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/01/05 02:20 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4740472 - 10/01/05 11:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I had to dig this out of a 1994 (Issue #26) copy of Stephen Peele's newsletter from The Florida Mycology Research Center - the only place to buy spores back in the 80's. After a DEA threat to his license, he sent all Psilocybian cultures to Europe. They are available again, but not THIS one - the "Psycho-Sapphire" sclerotia-bearing mushroom - type unknown and now unavailable. If anything ever struck me as being the Philosophers' Stone, it is this sapphire-blue gem-like substance (next to phosphorescent pure LSD of course!).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4744845 - 10/02/05 12:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The caption says: "A modern Iranian at work on the age-old goal of transmuting base metals to gold," but I rather believe he is working with something called 'the vegetable gold.' Not all alchemy is mineral-oriented, it is also vegetable-oriented. Inner alchemy is psychophysical, meaning that the outer apparatus such as athanor (furnace) and alembic are internalized as in Taoist Yoga and alchemy, and correspond to the psychic centers (chakras) with their corresponding Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Aether elements - the sublimations of energy within the alchemical laboratory apparatus internalized.

There are those who believe as Jung did that the outer laboratory workings were projections of unconscious contents alone. There are those who believe that as one's inner life attains wholeness, outer phenomenon in the retort reflects that attainment. Thus, wholeness [holiness] allows for transformations of matter (like water-into-wine metaphor in the Bible). For base metals to be converted to Gold, GOD would have to be behind the phenomenon (which is why an Oratory (for prayer) is illustrated as being included in the alchemical laboratory.

Apparently only the 'puffers,' those crudely materialistic and greedy people who were after the 'vulgar gold,' not the 'Philosophical Gold,' thought alchemy to be a merely chemical transmutation (without a Cyclotron and a billion volts of electricity, they were not going to transmute any amount of lead into gold).

Fulcanelli, like Taoist alchemists (such as Lao-Tzu) was after the Elixir of Life rather than the Philosophers' stone. In The Mystery of the Cathedrals Walter Lang apparently relates that Fucanelli was a man of 80, and upon the next meeting with him 30 years later, Fucanelli appeared to be a man of 50. He had become younger. The same kind of story suggests that Nicholas Flamel (adopted into the fictional Harry Potter books) still lives in India after centuries. Who knows?


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4791478 - 10/12/05 05:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
They are available again, but not THIS one - the "Psycho-Sapphire" sclerotia-bearing mushroom - type unknown and now unavailable. If anything ever struck me as being the Philosophers' Stone, it is this sapphire-blue gem-like substance (next to phosphorescent pure LSD of course!).



check out this possible explanation
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Growlog&Number=4608695


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