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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Prayer and Free Will
    #2578030 - 04/19/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There are a few possibilities with petitioning prayer and all seem to have major flaws.

1. Prayer is not efficacious.
This appears to be the case. Within a few short years of discovering/inventing the radio, almost anyone interested could build one because the basic principles were known. Yet, in tens of thousands of years of praying, results at best seem ephemeral; at worst, non-existent.

2. Proper (not sure what that means) prayer is efficacious.
"Dear God, protect our boys in Iraq." In this scenario, God somehow affects the aim of the enemy or the choices "our boys" make so as to preclude more injury. This "interference" casts extreme doubt on free-will. As some of our boys die anyways, then this means that scenario 1 is true or that God has no free-will. If enough people pray sincerely, then God has no choice but to grant their petition. If this is not so, then God is capricious deciding upon a whim whether to grant special favors or not. If this is true, it is no different than a lottery.

Naturally, praying for harm to another cannot be possible in a spiritually advanced being so those prayers are tossed out.

Of course, the enemy is also praying for "their boys" to be protected. Here we have competing prayers that may cancel out. So then it comes down to who does the ritual best or most often or has the largest number of people praying or the most sincere prayers or .... on and on it goes.


Bottom line: praying for personal wisdom and insight and awareness is the only possible real-world use of prayer. (IMHO, of course!)


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2578053 - 04/19/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have always felt it is better to pray for what one has rather than what one wants.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleshriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2578097 - 04/19/04 03:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

im not religious like i pray to god and thanks for food and things like that, but praying can be focusing energy, good and some focus on bad, to people , i belive in energy and i belive there is a link somewhere between all humans, animals, plants and other living things in the universe and trough this link you can send good thoughts and energy. everyone has a spirit and the link is somewhere in this spirit world, between all thing that was, all that is and all that is going to be.
therefor when someone i know is in pain or have a hard time that is when i meditate and send my prayers their way.


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Anonymous

Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Seuss]
    #2578140 - 04/19/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yeah i agree, unless it is non material wants.

swami(sampsonite),

i think the prayers would help guide the soldiers to a safer location, and at the same time, guide the othersides soldiers out of their path, and neither of them gets hurt. thats just one scenereo though, but he does find a way to help, thats for sure.

what i think is retarded is how churches get together as a whole and pray for THIS countries soldiers to be protected, but dont pray for the other side. Does this not contradict what they supposedly believe in...."love thy enemies". if you loved them youd pray for them all the same, because you love them and dont want to see ANYONE get hurt. I know i dont, war is fucking stupid.

shriek,

thats an awesome way of putting it, i agree. i call the energy, love. and i believe the DIRECT link between us and everything is our soul(which is the love)


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Anonymous

Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2578584 - 04/19/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I've often thought of The Lord's Prayer as a kind of Christianity Extraction. It's been powdered, soaked, boiled, strained, vacuum filtered, swirled, separated, scraped and finally, when we "smoke" it, it gives us a connection to the Divine. It's only .6% tho but there it is.

And while we're "high" or "under the influence" of the Lord's Prayer through recitation, we are either with the Divine Presence according to how we have been living and treating others and Creation and all or we are somehow set against it. It's a chance to see where we stand, a reminder.

It is good that Christians smoke the Lord's Prayer.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2578894 - 04/19/04 07:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Since it's my opinion that we're all "God" and all one, when I hear someone say that they're praying for something it makes me think that they are praying to a part of themselves that they aren't in touch with. They don't even know it.




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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Seuss]
    #2579007 - 04/19/04 07:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have always felt it is better to pray for what one has

Dear God,

Please let me have a fat, nagging wife, a broken-down, rusted out 1963 Dodge Dart, lumbago, diabetes, a total moron for a leader and a job where I am underpaid and undervalued.

Amen 


Hey, it works!  :eyemouth:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: ]
    #2579019 - 04/19/04 07:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i think the prayers would help guide the soldiers to a safer location, and at the same time, guide the othersides soldiers out of their path, and neither of them gets hurt.
Which violates free-will.

...he does find a way to help, thats for sure.
Nothing certain about it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2579063 - 04/19/04 08:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I have always felt it is better to pray for what one has

Dear God,

Please let me have a fat, nagging wife, a broken-down, rusted out 1963 Dodge Dart, lumbago, diabetes, a total moron for a leader and a job where I am underpaid and undervalued.

Amen 


Hey, it works!  :eyemouth:





you're... MARRIED?


RATS!


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2579133 - 04/19/04 08:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Prayer is a mental excercise that helps others find positive energy. Of course praying for all the homeless people isnt going to help their situation. But what does it mean? I feel sympathy for them and if I cross a homeless persons path, I'll spare some kindness.

Prayer is kata for the mind.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Anonymous

Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2579159 - 04/19/04 08:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

dear sampson,

it doesnt violate free will if they listen to their hearts, which is how god guides you, you can ignore him, you seem to be a good example of that.

it is certain to me :grin:


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Swami]
    #2579206 - 04/19/04 08:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think death is the least of gods concerns, pain... is a higher priority but the biggest factor of gods concerns (and where he will most probably help out with your prayers) is if you for example pray for someone who is in a situation where he might choose evil to get what he wants, if you pray against that energy can be focused so the person you are praying for will see good as a better tool than evil.
What it all comes down to is your will, peoples will, if your will is good, then god is satisfied and is only waiting for people to pray for that. I think physical pain (even extreme pains like cancer arent so important to god) as life is a short time on the physical level which you go through as passing a test to get to heaven basically.

The boys in iraq can get tortured to the extremes, but if their will is good they will come to heaven when they die and whatever they went through life on earth which wasnt pure will have no meaning anymore, a distant memory with no concern. So according to god that is not a type of pain which concerns him the most.

You have to think these things through to the end to find the answer you cant just assume god/our source/the manifestation of all good spirits (whatever you wanna call it) cares too much about wasting energy on granting prayers like, "god, grant me good grades this year" and maybe even prayers like, "may my sons survive this war without pain".

The reason prayers dont seem to work so obviously is simply because here in physical life we would only realize obvious answers from god such as answers to prayers we would like.


Alot of times the pain we go through in life is too make our will good. People often surrender to purity under pain (emotionall, physical but not spiritual pain, that is). Spiritual pain is the only true bad pain.

Dude... prayers really work, but not for everything, just for spiritually pure things, and you have to be true about what you pray for.


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Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


Edited by filthysock (04/19/04 08:42 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Prayer and Free Will [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2579286 - 04/19/04 08:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

you're... MARRIED?  RATS!

Hey, I fool around anyway.  :yesnod:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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