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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Physics and Unanswered Prayers
    #7052534 -

A prayer is essentially a thought, which is an electro-chemical signal. Electromagnetism travels as the speed of light, so if God is not nearby (perhaps he is vacationing on the Pleasure Planet 200,000 parsecs away) he may not receive your prayer for a billion years and when he does answer, you and perhaps your planet no longer exist.

If there is no central locus for God and he is truly everywhere, the same principle applies. Information speed is limited by the structure of the universe.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7052544 -

But god, in any definition that counts, is a supernatural being...something not of "this" universe.

Hence applying the speed constraint of information, something that is a property of this universe, to god is probably not going to work :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: trendal]
    #7052696 -

I'm not sure if it is correct to say that a prayer is only a thought. It uses heart too. Maybe something or another as well. Seems a bit too mysterious to pin down so casually, possibly? A lot of times I have prayers answered. Only for somethings of course. Learning prayer is strange. I'm a rotten person too, I wouldn't expect God to listen to me. Maybe he does or not. Last I heard, God was neither here nor there.

What about those sub-atomic particles that always spin opposite to each other without time communication lapse no matter how far apart in the universe they become from each other? Supposedly it is supposed to imply faster than light speed information transfer. I don't really know anything about this area of physics... read about it last fall.. retaining the information properly is a different story, and the over all validity is yet another tale all together.

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: trendal]
    #7052720 -

trendal said:
But god, in any definition that counts, is a supernatural being...something not of "this" universe.

Hence applying the speed constraint of information, something that is a property of this universe, to god is probably not going to work :wink:


:thumbup:

Someone is not thinking things thru before posting.:D


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: trendal]
    #7052836 -

Quote:
But god, in any definition that counts, is a supernatural being...something not of "this" universe.



If he is outside of a closed system, then he cannot have any effect. If he can have effect then he is part of the system, verdad?


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: Icelander]
    #7052872 -

Quote:
Someone is not thinking things thru before posting.


Someone has a high fever today and is close to delerium. Someone is being karmically punished for thinking bad thoughts. :nono:


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7052921 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Someone is not thinking things thru before posting.


Someone has a high fever today and is close to delerium. Someone is being karmically punished for thinking bad thoughts. :nono:


Are you saying this because I spelled "through"wrong?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: Icelander]
    #7052997 -

I am saying that I am incredibly sick :puke: today so be gentle with me.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7053131 -

Straighten out your chakras and you'll be good as new. :yesnod:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7053629 -

It would behoove you to research a little bit what some of the theistic traditions mean by prayer. In Christian theologies for example, there are forms of prayer other than petitionary prayer. In the second place, the Divine Immanence is available at every point of space-time, not because God's Presence suffuses the universe, but because God transcends the universe. Communication with Deity has nothing to do with physical speed of electroneural impulses. The awareness that human beings are is derivative of God. The primitive formulation is that 'souls' come from God, but a more sophisticated notion is that human awareness, though mediated by the psychophysical [mind-body] or 'soul,' is an 'extension' of the "image and likeness" of God into space-time. We are 'individual waves' formed of an 'Ocean' which is God, but we are trapped, so-to-speak, into seeing only our individual beinghood and we fail to see that we are not separate from the 'Ocean' from which our temporary beinghood is made.

In this sense, and even parallel to Buddhist thought, we are being 'created' moment-to-moment. Our beinghood is an emergent phenomenon from the Ground of Being - God. Communication is instantaneous. God is said in the Qu'ran to be 'closer than one's jugular vein,' and Plotinus the Neoplatonist says that since everything that exists has come from The One, everything in some measure partakes of The One. The New Testament says “In him we live and move and have our being,
even as some of your poets have said.” (Acts 17:28). It is deeper than psychopsychical (soul or psyche) communication, it is pneumatic (spiritual) communication, spirit being archaic language for consciousness or awareness. Prayer derives from one's core or Center, mediated in the petitionary form through the mind-body (soul) when physical change is sought. It is not 'magickal' thinking but mystical thinking because the Oneness with God is the presumed ontological status of the one who prays. All petitionary prayers are obviously not granted. Saint Paul was said to have prayed three times for a certain "thorn" to be removed from his side, but whatever was causing his a problem was not removed. This is the archetype of all of our rejected petitions.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7055259 -

If an individual prays desperately to god that he be selected for a job, and if god answers his prayer, is not god depriving others of that job?

Such are our prayers, vain and selfish.


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: shakercee]
    #7057799 -

If god created us in his image and we are selfish, could god not also be selfish?

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: shakercee]
    #7057843 -

A selfish prayer produces a selfish result. That is, the increase of selfishness. Not beneficial.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: FatBath]
    #7058500 -

FatBath said:
I'm not sure if it is correct to say that a prayer is only a thought. It uses heart too. Maybe something or another as well.


Liver?


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: Williamsii]
    #7058519 -

Williamsii said:
If god created us in his image and we are selfish, could god not also be selfish?


If so, then selfishness is next to Godliness. There are many who would agree with you.

However, I think it is more accurate to say that we create God in our own image... and we are selfish at times, and wrathful at times, and loving still at others. There is no perfection in God, only the perception of it.

If there were a God-like entity out there, that were truly sentient and truly involved in our daily lives, I would have to question its motives as I would any other unknown person who could have an impact on my life. Christianity says that God should be obeyed, loved and feared because God is powerful. Personally, I do not accept that as a valid line of reasoning, and it is most certainly not a noble one.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7058577 -

We must fear god because we must fear people and we obey god for the same reason


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7058608 -

A very apt analysis. I think my anti-authoritarian tendencies led me to overlook that correlation.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7061258 -

"If there were a God-like entity out there, that were truly sentient and truly involved in our daily lives, I would have to question its motives as I would any other unknown person who could have an impact on my life. Christianity says that God should be obeyed, loved and feared because God is powerful. Personally, I do not accept that as a valid line of reasoning, and it is most certainly not a noble one."

You are looking at God from the wrong perspective and as such you are met with the intellectual absurdity and the intuition that it can'e be - which is correct from the wrong point of view.

God is not a spatial reality and is not "out there." Neither can one say with accuracy that God is 'within.' The non-canonical Gospel of Thomas does say 'within' and 'without' (vs. "within" in Luke 17:20, but which in Greek [if I'm not mistaken] is ento, 'in the midst of' rather than 'eso' which would mean inner, within). Elaine Pagels has said:

"The Gospel of Thomas also suggests that Jesus is aware of, and criticizing the views of the Kingdom of God as a time or a place that appear in the other gospels. Here Jesus says, "If those who lead you say to you, 'look, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will get there first. If they say 'it's in the ocean,' then the fish will get there first. But the Kingdom of God is within you and outside of you. Once you come to know yourselves, you will become known. And you will know that it is you who are the children of the living father."

In this gospel, and this is also the case in the Gospel of Luke, the Kingdom of God is not an event that's going to be catastrophically shattering the world as we know it and ushering in a new millennium. Here, as in Luke 17:20, the Kingdom of God is said to be an interior state; "It's within you," Luke says. And here it says, "It's inside you but it's also outside of you." It's like a state of consciousness. It's hard to describe. But the Kingdom of God here is something that you can enter when you attain gnosis, which means knowledge."

Pagel's "like a state of consciousness" might be better understood as a radically altered state of consciousness in which Transcendental Reality becomes Known (Gnosis) immediately and with certainty, but outside of sensory experience. It is, for lack of a better analogy, a shift in dimension.

Next, God may be personal (whereas the Godhead is Transpersonal), but God is not 'a person,' any more than God is 'a being.' God is the Ground of Being, the indivisible One whence all duality emerges into manifestation. The One is eternal and changeless and is THAT from which human beinghood emerges into individual existence (individual 'wave consciousness' rather than 'Oceanic Consciousness'). This connects up with your comment on "motives" which, from a strictly Christian theology is revealed in the personality of Y'shua/Jesus. God is about Compassion and wholeness (healing/health being a psychophysical aspect). The ultimate purpose of the universe has been theorized by different theologians. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin saw the entire universe being transubstantiated into Christ which he called "The Omega Point." God Knows .

The question about death is as moot as the question about birth - they are transitions into different states of existence, the rending away from the body of the mother in the first case and the rending away of consciousness from embodiment in the second are both painful. The further question is why is there suffering (and the Buddhist answer that we are attached is the cause of suffering doesn't help here, it is obvious). The willful infliction of pain on other beings is what evil is about, and like suffering, there is no satisfactory understanding why God has also brought evil into existence (except that it is a necessary correlate to goodness in the dualism of existence).

Christianity has many theological schools, but loving, fearing (in the sense of respecting, not being terrified) and obeying must be understood as obeying your 'Supernal Parents' who have not brought you into being for nothing, and whose Life you are constituted from. It would sound banal to say that 'God cares for us,' but our existence deriving moment-to-moment from the Ground Consciousness, would be revealed to our truly Realized Awareness as a supreme gift! Attempting to understand rationally configured questions with rationally constructed answers will NOT answer such questions. The answer to many rational questions can only be answered by transrational states of consciousness. This is why Scholastic Theology based on rational Aristotelian format fell flat. Only a mystical insight that illumines one's intellect, giving rise to gnosis can answer or nullify a non sequitur question.

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7061344 -

I get what you are saying as much as possible as a non-experiencer could.

But all I have ever seen is roadmap after roadmap leading nowhere; whether it be the psychedelic revolution, Eastern philosophy or Christian Church or other.

The path is littered with fraudelent teachers who were widely accepted and more deeply flawed than Joe Average.

My brother who is so deeply into the love of Jesus, compassion and non-judgmentalism that he refuses to communicate with our mother (a Catholic and not a Baptist :whoah:)

You, like much of the spiritual literature, repeated talk of this state of gnosis, but it keeps coming back to:

1. Had put much faith and 'effort' into following Yogananda for many years. I discovered nothing - not even a hint of shadow of a glimpse. His # disciple fell flat on his face after 50 years of meditation and service.

2. Billions of religious followers show no difference than non-followers.

3. People regulary deceive themselves.

4. Have never knowingly met even a partailly-realized human being.

5. You claim to have discovered this ground-of-being, but cannot give a roadmap. Of course, I have no way of knowing if you have or have not.

It all seems like an incredibly futile search with no key and no role model and no solid reason to even believe in the possibility of cosmic connection.


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Re: Physics and Unanswered Prayers [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7061982 -

"God is not a spatial reality and is not 'out there.'"

Spacial reality is irrelevant. God is described in all ways as an entity, whether it is "without" or "within", though it is said to be both. The justification for obedience to that entity, at least the only rational justification I've heard, is that the entity is all-powerful and all-knowing. Yet, that entity has given instruction to humans in a direct way, according to your mythology. As such, they have an obligation to question those instructions, lest they blindly give themselves and contribute to a cause which may be unjust. If one were approached directly by God, as your mythology says so many have been, one would not have any positive verification of the omniscience of that being--they would know only that it is a more significant being than they, for it has the power to contact them and direct them through means outside their comprehension.

Supernatural simply means "beyond known nature"--if something is both supernatural and true, then it becomes natural. I refer you again to "On Miracles" by Hume, which is a wonderful elaboration of this point.


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