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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Registered: 09/12/03
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: mr crisper]
    #2128706 - 11/22/03 04:15 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

mr crisper,

"Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You show me one place in any alchemical literature that shows plainly and clearly how to concoct the elixir of immortality so that any one of us could do it right now, and I will show you where they are talking directly about mushrooms.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
why should i have to do that, you are the one who said 'it is beyond doubt alchemists have concocted the elixir..'"
I can see that you didn't understand what I said. The truth is there isn't a single alchemical test that shows PLAINLY and CLEARLY how to concoct the elixir of immortality (Ever read one?) and my interpretation of their super-symbolic wacked-out crazy writing is that they are talking about a psychedelic mushroom.

"i'm the one asking for references, quotes, etc in support of your theories."
That is why I put a bibliography at the end of my last post, along with the reason why I wouldn't quote them. If you're geniunely interested, then pick them up at the library.

"if they were successful at making the elixir of immortality, they would be alive now, would they not?"
The alchemists symbolically called their creation the "elixir of immortality", along with hundreds of other things (Ever read one?). I would hope that you didn't think I was literally talking about making a potion that would force the human body to never die, because if you thought that, you must not have known that the whole point of this thread was to show how I think the "elixir of immortality" is a psychedelic mushroom.

"large numbers of people and long periods of time are not valid arguments to the authenticity of your theories. millions of people took the biblical creation story literally for nearly 2000 years, and some still do. does that make it true?"
I already explained how they devised a way for there not to be any successful "fake" alchemists (the literalist). True alchemy isn't like an institutionalized religion with weak lambs paying tribute for their peace of mind. To be a genuine alchemist, you must actually practice it, unlike some other religions, like Christianity, Catholicism, and Judaism (among others). In other words, there weren't really any lay-people. If you were an alchemist, it was a profession, like a priest or a monk, for it was a lifelong study. So in this instance I could use that argument to prove my theory. You provided an instance where that kind of argument would not work.

"the formulas for producing gold are the most important in alchemical texts, if you think they are talking literally about gold as a shiny metal, you are not getting it at all."
I'm not even sure if you actually read my posts before you wrote that because if you didn't know it by now I really believe that they weren't actually talking about literal gold at all but really PSYCHEDELIC MUSHROOMS!!!!! I would hope I made that clear. Maybe you didn't understand the word reputable? The point was that out of all the alchemists ever, there has never been a single documented case where someone turned base metals into gold in front of a substantial number of respectable people. I was trying to show that it is hard to believe alchemy really deals with literally turning base metals into to gold. It somewhat strengthens my argument that they were symbolically dealing with something other than what they were literally talking about.


I would like to reply to everyone, but it's late. I'll write more after a night of sleep, AAAHHHH, sleep . . .


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What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2131534 - 11/24/03 01:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

So far, this is what Medicinebag "Sees".

Mushroom stones, hard mycelium is way for someone to store their mycelium cultures over winter. Datura was being utillized in the old world. Datura Salves require pig fat to be whipped up into gello. Why not whip up the pig fat, then distill it, then you get glycerin. Add a pinch of sawdust then you got nitroglycerin, LOL Fight Club. anyway, Pig fat, can be whipped up into Gelatin to make a crude Agar. It is very plausable to grow mushrooms as far back as their was Glass. Does anyone agree?


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: medicinebag]
    #2134490 - 11/25/03 11:13 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

With a little help and conversation with my newly found friend medicinebag, I have got some updates to my initial post.
In all of the alchemical texts they talk about the what to start with, but never actually say what it is. They called it "Mercurius", among other things, but they hint that it is like real mercury but not the same thing, and was related to the moon in some way. The Sclerotia of mycelium is like a small ball that is kind of hard, and to quote medicinebag "found in the woods under a known mushroom (edible and hallucinagenic) patch by people for later indoor cultivation." They are the little white balls in potting soil, if I'm correct, and they resemble the moon pretty damn closely. The weird thing is that the ball is close, if not one of the only things in nature, that could be symbolical of mercury and the moon. It has a silvery/grey tint to it, and (I think) will break down into a kind of jelly if heated in water, or with steam (or maybe with flame). The alchemical texts talk about how you must heat up the "Mercurius" and get it to absorb some things for it to be able to turn into the "elixir." In my private conversation with medicinebag he said "The agar is only a base and other ingredients have to be added to the heated agar before it cools, like, blood, malt, potatoes, rice, all kinds of stuff that mushrooms can grow on." That is very interesting . . . .
I did not know what he was getting at with the agar/pig fat thought, but after some explanation, it could be the missing link. Basically, agar is the stuff in petri dishes, but you can make close to the same thing by heating up pig fat, and skimming off the glycerin that rises to the top. The glycerin is then a substrate that could be used to cultivate mushrooms. The cool thing is, though, that it would require quite alot of steps to prepare the pig fat, and sterilize it (along with the other added stuff), so that the mushrooms would grow uncontaminated. That is where the alchemical texts come in. It is my opinion that some of the steps in alchemy are really talking about preparing and sterilizing the medium your elixir will grow on. Medicinebag said "One last thing>ALCOHOL>STERILITY> they had Glass, Steam, Agar, Grain, and Alcohol." That is why the alchemists talk about the tools needed for the transformation, and all of them involve a special furnace of some kind (glass beakers), a special liquid needed to "purify the putrid mass" (alcohol), and the kicker, they use a special kind of heat that they describe as being composed of water (steam). They also talk of "special salts" that should be added to the concoction, and medicinebag said "Pig fat/jello agar can be used if you knew exactly how to lower the ph of the pigs blood with some gypsom," and gypsom could be called a "special salt" for it has some of the same properties.
This might need to turn into a research paper, or a book. Once again, I must give a shout-out to medicinebag for relating to me his thoughts on this topic. I had been racking my brain to make the final connection, really just what all the intermediate steps could be symbolic of. I could kind of see the beginning, and the finished product, but I failed to be able to explain the middle steps. I was looking for ways of mushroom cultivation that could be represented in the texts, but I was really only thinking of modern techniques. It seeems that medicinebag is some what of a historo-mycologist, and explained to me how they used to cultivate mushrooms about 200 years ago with simple technology. The thing is that everything they had 200 years ago, they had farther back than that, and there is nothing stopping a person living in 0 A.D. from cultivating mushrooms, except how to do it. That is where the alchemists come in. They knew how to do it, but couldn't tell the masses for fear of their own lives. Remember that almost anything not "Christian" was heresy, and heretics got killed, especially ones that eat a hallucinogenic substance that they claim gives them immortality (of the mind). That is why they wrote the way they did, so that if someone really was spiritual and righteous, they could decipher their codes and consume the ultimate "plant of god".
Thanks again medicinebag, none of this would have ever fit if you didn't take the time to write me about your ideas.
Thoughts anyone?


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #2134904 - 11/25/03 02:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Pig fat/jello agar can be used if you knew exactly how to lower the ph of the pigs blood with some gypsom,

Just for a clarification, I meant Raise the ph not lower. The blood agar would have a low ph and gypsum is a base that will raise the ph. Just for a clarification. Good luck. Do some more research on Musrhoom Cultivation in France. Later.

Also:
They are the little white balls in potting soil, if I'm correct,

No. Sclerotia is not the little white balls in potting soil> That is Perlite. It is used for water retention. But, Sclerotia looks like a ball but not necesarilly spherical. It is white with some browns in it from surrounding soil. BUt basically , you are correct with the moon asumptions and it being White. I just wanted to clarify that so no one would jump all over you about it. Good Luck. Later.


Edited by medicinebag (11/25/03 02:36 PM)


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: medicinebag]
    #2135225 - 11/25/03 04:37 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the clarification medicinebag, sorry about that.
Here's a picture of Sclerotia

Still kind of fits the bill doesn't it?


--------------------
What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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Offlinehasan_i_sabah
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4733209 - 09/29/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

bump, because goddamn it's been a long time


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What I was having trouble finding is the one thing that should never be missing from religion: the personal experience of God in the here and now. - Clark Heinrich "Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4733604 - 09/29/05 10:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

  Only us latter day Alchemists see it that way  :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4735312 - 09/30/05 07:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

interesting.. however I refuse to believe that alchemy revolved around something as simple as a mushroom.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: kotik]
    #4735331 - 09/30/05 07:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Historical alchemy had nothing to do with mushrooms, but history is still in the making and psychedelics are [tongue-in-cheek] the Philosophers' Stone. Very pure LSD apparently is phosphorescent in the dark because of the Phosphorus element. Reminds me of a picture in my library of the alchemist Hennig Brand discovering Phosphorus.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4736644 - 09/30/05 02:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread is great. Nice pic, Markos.

Anokhi? Suspected to be a mushroom (by none other than Philip K. Dick) used by a jewish sect (Jesus') to achieve immortality. 'Anokhi' refers to pure self-awareness. Not my ideas...


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"A Bad Day for Pants"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4737587 - 09/30/05 06:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's ODD:eek:...I just got to pages 80-81 in The Transmigration of Timothy Archer by P.K. Dick which brings up "anokhi. "Hmmmm, one of those interesting coincidences again. I don't usually read fiction, but I just bought the Valis trilogy because of my interest in Dick's treatment of gnosticism.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4738302 - 09/30/05 09:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ha! I had to pull out the transmigration book just to look up those pages! Syncronicity!


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4738321 - 09/30/05 09:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Seeing as we live in a world of information, and information is transmuted as ideas in the form of language, and seeing as the world is false but real but fabric, there are many threads, and threads weave and webs... and I've been drinking alcohol so I can attribute a higher significance to your own...

...and the world of information is beautiful! Wonderful!


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"


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OfflineNignugnot
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4740326 - 10/01/05 10:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I can't finish reading this post so I'm going to put my though in early... Why does the elixer of immortality have to me material? I'll give anyone points for the idea that early humans really only thought of material things but if these nigs tripped like what has been offered, they would be open for new ideas. As to the strain, I think you would do better if you found out the strain in Inda and China and would then know where abouts the euro found thier strain. I once was chilling with Jack Herer and he handed me chapters from his new book. I forget what the title is but his new book is his explanation of religion as seen through him and his 2 years of taking Amineta Muscaria and Amanieta Pansceria mushrooms and his one trip of the proper reciepe for tripping Amanietas(soma in his book). Anyway I gots to eat pace nigs.


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I'm an asymtope, neva gonna catch me!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4740425 - 10/01/05 11:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/01/05 02:20 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4740472 - 10/01/05 11:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I had to dig this out of a 1994 (Issue #26) copy of Stephen Peele's newsletter from The Florida Mycology Research Center - the only place to buy spores back in the 80's. After a DEA threat to his license, he sent all Psilocybian cultures to Europe. They are available again, but not THIS one - the "Psycho-Sapphire" sclerotia-bearing mushroom - type unknown and now unavailable. If anything ever struck me as being the Philosophers' Stone, it is this sapphire-blue gem-like substance (next to phosphorescent pure LSD of course!).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: hasan_i_sabah]
    #4744845 - 10/02/05 12:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The caption says: "A modern Iranian at work on the age-old goal of transmuting base metals to gold," but I rather believe he is working with something called 'the vegetable gold.' Not all alchemy is mineral-oriented, it is also vegetable-oriented. Inner alchemy is psychophysical, meaning that the outer apparatus such as athanor (furnace) and alembic are internalized as in Taoist Yoga and alchemy, and correspond to the psychic centers (chakras) with their corresponding Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Aether elements - the sublimations of energy within the alchemical laboratory apparatus internalized.

There are those who believe as Jung did that the outer laboratory workings were projections of unconscious contents alone. There are those who believe that as one's inner life attains wholeness, outer phenomenon in the retort reflects that attainment. Thus, wholeness [holiness] allows for transformations of matter (like water-into-wine metaphor in the Bible). For base metals to be converted to Gold, GOD would have to be behind the phenomenon (which is why an Oratory (for prayer) is illustrated as being included in the alchemical laboratory.

Apparently only the 'puffers,' those crudely materialistic and greedy people who were after the 'vulgar gold,' not the 'Philosophical Gold,' thought alchemy to be a merely chemical transmutation (without a Cyclotron and a billion volts of electricity, they were not going to transmute any amount of lead into gold).

Fulcanelli, like Taoist alchemists (such as Lao-Tzu) was after the Elixir of Life rather than the Philosophers' stone. In The Mystery of the Cathedrals Walter Lang apparently relates that Fucanelli was a man of 80, and upon the next meeting with him 30 years later, Fucanelli appeared to be a man of 50. He had become younger. The same kind of story suggests that Nicholas Flamel (adopted into the fictional Harry Potter books) still lives in India after centuries. Who knows?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Alchemy is ancient study of mushroom cultivation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4791478 - 10/12/05 05:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
They are available again, but not THIS one - the "Psycho-Sapphire" sclerotia-bearing mushroom - type unknown and now unavailable. If anything ever struck me as being the Philosophers' Stone, it is this sapphire-blue gem-like substance (next to phosphorescent pure LSD of course!).



check out this possible explanation
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Growlog&Number=4608695


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