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OfflineSyd_barret
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Different Strains? different high?
    #637893 - 05/20/02 02:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, in the past I have posted this same question..
Each time getting worthwhile input and feedback

I am looking to settle this dispute right here and right now
Whether or not a different strain can give a different kind of high, or the different high is just a result of chance.

For example can the GT strain give a different or better high then compared to B+

I have seen some very notable and respectable people on the shroomery boards post saying "The Golden Teacher strain gives me the best high overall"
Etc etc

Can this really be true?
Different strains can slightly vary in chemicals.. or chemicals in different ratios.

So what is your verdict?
I mean from personal experience, as well as documented factual information that you can cite (if there is any)




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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Syd_barret]
    #637958 - 05/20/02 03:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

there are over 50 alkaloids present to varying degrees in psilocybe mushrooms - their ratios vary not only between species, but strain, flush and even individual fruit bodies


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OfflineMushroomBoy123
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Syd_barret]
    #638086 - 05/20/02 05:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

True that....


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Offlinedirk gently
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #638412 - 05/20/02 09:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

there are over 50 alkaloids present to varying degrees in psilocybe mushrooms - their ratios vary not only between species, but strain, flush and even individual fruit bodies




Though true, this doesn't mean shit. It is not well established that anything other than psilocybin and psilocin are active at the typical dosage.

The apparent differences between strains are probably the combined result of significantly variable levels of psilocin/cybin (yes, even between flushes of the same strain) and the user's bias towards the strain that they think they are consuming.

The only way to back this up is to do some double blind experimentation with different strains. How many people think they could determine the identity of one unknown strain from another? Then with an unknown dosage for both? I highly doubt anyone could.

So you may be able to tell where I stand on this debate. But I am open to other points of view. Just my assessment.


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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: dirk gently]
    #638503 - 05/21/02 01:20 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Your view cannot be based on fact - if you have grown out a variety of cubensis strains - fruiting them on the same substrates continually under the same conditions - you WILL find variation in potency that is genetic based just as you will find unique mycelia, fruiting and fruit body characteristics.
If you want to do a test - give Lipa yai three grams dry to individuals, then in two weeks give them three grams of Golden Teachers or Tasmanian and you will find im right.
Sure, the difference is negliable in terms of measuring Ps.Cubensis against Copelandia Cyanescens or a similarly potent mushroom, but i am 100% sure that there is variation.
Tests have been conducted, but I dont feel the need to conduct a proper 'blind' test on a number of users, because I already trust my own judgement on the issue and Im not here to prove anything to you.

It has been well established that atleast three alkaloids are psychoactive - obviously Psilocybin, psilocin and baeocystin -due to the fact that many of the other alkaloids present are VERY similar to the above three one can assume that they are also active to some degree


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Offlinedirk gently
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #639029 - 05/21/02 11:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I never said you won't find diversity between strains. They may even have different ratios of the slew of trace tryptamines and indoles. You will also find variation in potency. But how do you know that its not just a greater or lesser amount of psilocin/cybin thats responsible for the varied potencies?

I'm not aware of any strain of cubensis that is always more potent than another, however. This would be hard to prove in any case.

Please provide a credible source that states that baeocystin is active as a psychedelic. I have read claims that it is a nauseant, a respitory inhibitor and totally inactive (all unsubstantiated). Plus, it is usually found in a much lower amount in cubensis.

Just because some other trace chemicals have similarities in structure to psilocin does not mean they are at all active. Small differences can mean significant pharmacological differences or no activity at all. So unless you pick out a specific one that is shown to be active you are just guessing.



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OfflineSyd_barret
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: dirk gently]
    #639226 - 05/21/02 01:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"Active Ingredients
The primary effects of mushrooms come from several active alkaloids they contain; the most common are psilocybin, psilocin, and baeocystin. Psilocybin is a more stable compound than psilocin, but is broken down into psilocin after ingestion."

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_basics.shtml


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Offlinedirk gently
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Syd_barret]
    #639545 - 05/21/02 07:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Erowid is a fine site that has lots of useful, and predominantly factual information. But it is only a collection of information from other sources for the most part. There is not, unfortunately, a source to back up the claim that baeocystin is psychoactive. Too bad shulgin didn't synthesize it specfically.

Even assuming that baeocystin is equally as potent as psilocybin consider the amounts found in cubensis. 0.63% psilocybin, 0.60% psilocin, 0.025% baeocystin. The figures will vary, but thats still 25 times less baeocystin present than psilocybin. Also, psilocin is actually more potent by weight.

From the psilocybe FAQ there is the following source:

"9. Jeremy Bigwood reports that the effects of baeocystin are not noticeably different than those of psilocybin and/or psilocyin."

hmmmm, thats nice of jeremy B., but... who the hell are you and could you possibly give less details.

edit: weird, never heard that name before. Old school mushroom researcher for those that don't know. rumored to be the MMGG author? Still, I can't find anything about his baeocystin experiments.


Edited by dirk gently (05/21/02 07:38 PM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: dirk gently]
    #639786 - 05/21/02 11:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Baeocystin being active - Stamets, 1996 page 19, 38 and 39 - Gartz 1992 'Baeocystin, nor-baeocystin and/or Aeruginacine are closely related to psilocin, and may be active.'
Stamets 1996 page 98. the accidental death of a child to mushroom poisoning and the fact that the daeth was attributed to Ps.Baeocystis ...'spurred the search for another alkaloid similar to psilocybin but possibly toxic. Soon Baeocystin was discovered (Leung and Paul 1968; Benedict 1962). Most researchers are unaware that baeocystin is a misnomer. Baeocystin my most objective measures has not been proven to be toxic...'
Cubensis varietys and variation in potency: Stamets 1996:'Stijve and de Meijer (1993) found .15% psilocybin and .50% psilocin in a Mexican strain and .15%psilocybin and .33% psilocin in an Amazonian strain.'
Finally - Ps.Semilanceata contains between 1.7%-.2.37% psilocybin almost no psilocin and .21% BAEOCYSTIN.
Ps.Azurescens - contains .35%baeocystin and Ps.Baeocystis contains .10% baeocystin...ThaT A Large amount of the alkaloid in Liberty Caps and Azures...
Enough to make a good judgement of its activity.


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Offlinedirk gently
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #640193 - 05/22/02 09:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The original question raised was about different highs from strains (of cubensis). I did see that a couple other species did have higher levels of baeocystin. Actually, the amounts I gave for cubensis are on the high side even. It can really be discounted as an active ingredient here because it isn't present in large enough amounts.

And I'm still not aware of its activity. Its presumed active. Fine. It would be nice to have some reports of pure baeocystin use to see how it varies from psilocybin. If it does at all.

So I still am not convinced that one strain will have a different effect from another if you take into account that their potencies may vary by a factor of 4 or more.


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OfflineSyd_barret
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: dirk gently]
    #640698 - 05/22/02 05:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

correct me if I'm wrong but I think MJ Shroomer has ingested baeocystin in it's pure form.. or so I think he said that.

Maybe he will respond in this thread.


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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Syd_barret]
    #643906 - 05/24/02 08:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

quote from Mjshroomer: 'Baeocystine is just as psychoactive as psilocine and psilocybine.

Back in the 1970s Jeremy Bigwood was fortunate to bioassay some baeocystine crystals. He reported that the high was no different than the fresh mushrooms.

It is just a step in the biosynthesis of psilocybine and psilocine.

Some mushrooms will have psilocine, psilocybine, baeocystine and/or norbaeocystine in them at the same time or one or the other. Usually there will be psilocybine and psilocine in the same mushrooms with nothing else and then all four trtptomines may be in the shrooms. '


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Offlinedirk gently
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #644497 - 05/25/02 09:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Right. Saw that post.

Interesting choice of words there too (though its kind of anecdotal at this point). "He reported that the high was no different than the fresh mushrooms." Then one could safely assume that pure psilocybin would be no different from fresh mushrooms too (and I've heard that reported before).

So what is with all this nonsense about different strains and different highs? This would suggest that even different psilocybes should be the same basically because they all have the same three compounds to some extent.

95% of the members of this forum probably don't know this as fact. Shouldn't they? Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.




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OfflineEightball
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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Syd_barret]
    #645839 - 05/26/02 10:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i believe the reported variations from strain to strain are primarlily different consentrations in psilobin. other factors that will influence the trip are how rested the person is, set and setting, and any pseudo effects. ie. "i got me some B+ that joe shmoe said give a speedy high" so the person will keep the speedy high in mind and mostlikely will end up with a speedy high. mind over matter, especially when tripping.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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Re: Different Strains? different high? [Re: Eightball]
    #647012 - 05/27/02 01:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I dont agree but its my opinion - try tassies, Lipa Yai and Golden Teachers and you'll get three very distinct experiences everytime !!!


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