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Invisibleph_plus
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The cause of the different hights between strains. (Official FAQ thread)
    #1784717 - 08/06/03 12:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

In my experience, tripping with different Cubensis strains feels different. We know psilocin, psilocybin and baeocystin are the stuff which makes one high!..... And there are just little differences of psilocin, psilocybin and baeocystin ratios between Cubensis strains. And here is the question;

The blief on that every strain is different in highness, is it psychological or is it the little differences in the ratio of active materials.....? THNX!


Edited by Annom (04/29/05 10:44 AM)


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: ph_plus]
    #1784795 - 08/06/03 01:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

IMO, there should be no difference between strains other than the differences due to different doses.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784870 - 08/06/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with Phencyclidine, why would psilocin, psilocybin and baeocystin from a different strain give a different trip? It's still psilocin, psilocybin and baeocystin(vitamin C in an apple is the same as vitamin C in an orange, isn't it?).


Edited by Annom (08/06/03 05:19 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Annom]
    #1785138 - 08/06/03 03:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> IMO, there should be no difference between strains other than the differences due to different doses.

This is my observation as well. I swore I could tell the difference between B+ and GT until I tried them blind. Not knowing which one I had taken, I could not tell the difference (when normalized for strength).


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Offlineevlovevlove
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Annom]
    #1785276 - 08/06/03 04:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Only different doses of psilocin, psilocybin and baeocystin can give different trips.




SWIM can take the exact same dose of the exact same strain and have very different trips.

Regardless of the chemical variance between strains (which I have no hard data on), I think it is safe to say that when people associate certain characteristics with certain strains, at a minimum, this influences the set with which the person enters the experience and thus influences the trip.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: evlovevlove]
    #1785513 - 08/06/03 05:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You're right... I tried to say that different strains don't cause different trips except for different amounts of psilocin and psilocybin per gram mushrooms.

I can take the same dose of the same strain and have different trips too.. all about set, setting etc.


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Offlinedjd586
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Annom]
    #1785632 - 08/06/03 05:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think it has so much to do with the stain rather then the way in which they are cultivated. I get a different high from the same strain from batch to batch. But the high seems to be fairly consitant with the batch.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: djd586]
    #1787177 - 08/07/03 02:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Eat one gram of Ps.semilanceata, one gram of Ps.azurescens and two grams of Panaeolus cyanescens all dried and then tell me there are no differences... Certainly between species there are and this is due to significant differences in the ratios of not only psilocybin/psilocin or baeocystin/norbaeocystin and other tryptophan converted alkaloids all of which have been proven in studies by Gartz, Watling and heaps of others. If you look at the FAQ here you will see a list of around twenty or so alkaloids many of which could well also be active.
This in mind, i dont feel that its that hard to believe that their could be qualitive differences between cubensis strains. Having tried Mazatapecs, B+, Pes Amazonian, Argentinean, Mexicube, Cambodian, PF Classic, Golden teacher, Tasmanian, Ko Samui, Lipa Yai, Australian (various), Gulf Coast, Tressure Coast, and a few others, one thing i can 100% state with certainty is that there are significant and consistant potency differences between cubensis spore races. This has been demonstrated by Stivje and Demeijer in 1993 and other studies.
I think there are qualitive differences, but i cant prove this. Luckily, people like Hongus, Psilocybin Junkie and Roadkill who have grown about as many cubies as me would agree with me.


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Offlinewhole9
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1787210 - 08/07/03 02:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I believe u bluemeanie just becuz u have 4000 posts :laugh:


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: whole9]
    #1787378 - 08/07/03 04:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

yeah but does that indicate i know what im on about, or just that i post too much...:)


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1787532 - 08/07/03 07:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Eat one gram of Ps.semilanceata, one gram of Ps.azurescens and two grams of Panaeolus cyanescens all dried and then tell me there are no differences...




Eat 3g of P. Cubensis, 3g of P. Cubensis and 3g of P. Cubensis and then tell me there are no differences.... It's hard to do any research because you need only one variable, set and setting aren't constant and therefore you never know whether it was the strain or set/setting/etc. that caused a different trip.

Quote:

If you look at the FAQ here you will see a list of around twenty or so alkaloids many of which could well also be active




Could be? As long as there's no proof for that, we can't use it....

Quote:

Certainly between species there are and this is due to significant differences in the ratios of not only psilocybin/psilocin or baeocystin/norbaeocystin




Why would different ratios give different trips? Psilocybin is converted into psilocin and as far as i know baeocystin works exactly the same as psilocin. The ratios psilocybin/psilocin are also different in one strain, but it's just very hard to do good research at trip experiences.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Annom]
    #1794547 - 08/09/03 04:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Set and setting cannot explain the difference between woodloving and coprophilus psilocybes - if you had tried it you would agree. Set and setting are just an the usual excuse for anything that doesnt fit into the normal expectation of psilocin intoxication - and im well versed on its effects. If you firmly believe that set and setting has more effect on you than the related tryptophan converted alkaloids there isnt much i can say to you...
'Why would different ratios give different trips? Psilocybin is converted into psilocin and as far as i know baeocystin works exactly the same as psilocin'
Really? Please demonstrate to me one study that indicates that baeocystin is even active, let alone coverted to psilocin in the same way. There arent any - so im wondering where you got that from. Im talking from personal experience and it would be impossible to subjectively demonstrate my contention. If you dont agree or believe it that's not my issue.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1794628 - 08/09/03 05:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bluemeanie said:
Set and setting cannot explain the difference between woodloving and coprophilus psilocybes - if you had tried it you would agree.




Have you tried to differentiate between them blind?

Quote:

Set and setting are just an the usual excuse for anything that doesnt fit into the normal expectation of psilocin intoxication




Excuse? It's a hypothesis and far more reasonable than your assertions that you can differentiate between the same chemical produced by different strains.

Quote:

If you firmly believe that set and setting has more effect on you than the related tryptophan converted alkaloids there isnt much i can say to you...




Nobody said that. Set and setting will affect the experience. In double blind studies, people have confused methylphenidate, methamphetamine and caffeine, and those aren't even psychedelic drugs. It stands to reason that psychedelic drugs could also be confused. This, in fact, has occured. Once again, have you tried differentiating blind?

Quote:

'Why would different ratios give different trips? Psilocybin is converted into psilocin and as far as i know baeocystin works exactly the same as psilocin'
Really? Please demonstrate to me one study that indicates that baeocystin is even active let alone coverted to psilocin in the same way. There arent any - so im wondering where you got that from. Im talking from personal experience and it would be impossible to subjectively demonstrate my contention. If you dont agree or believe it that's not my issue.




I'm not sure what you're babbling about here. You're saying that you can differentiate the effects of the same chemical between two strains and that we should believe you even though you admit you have no evidence?


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1794776 - 08/09/03 08:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Really? Please demonstrate to me one study that indicates that baeocystin is even active, let alone coverted to psilocin in the same way. There arent any - so im wondering where you got that from. 


 
"CHEMISTRY
The primary active ingredients of Psilocybe mushrooms are psilocybin and psilocin,  and to a lesser extent baeocystin and norbaeocystin. The ratio of psilocybin to psilocin varies from species to species. The primary difference between the two compounds is that psilocin is unstable and breaks down when the mushroom is dried, while psilocybin lasts much longer (a 115-year old mushroom sample was found to contain some).  The two are equally psychoactive, since one molecule of psilocybin breaks down into one molecule of psilocin. " -  Erowid - Mushroom FAQ.

Quote:

I'm talking from personal experience and it would be impossible to subjectively demonstrate my contention. If you dont agree or believe it that's not my issue.




The believe in different trips from different strains can also cause a different trip(placebo). And I'm not offending you or something, I just want to hear your arguments and give mine, maybe I can learn something.  :smile: 


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OfflineMycoGlowFlow
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1794824 - 08/09/03 09:18 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"IMO, there should be no difference between strains other than the differences due to different doses. "


i completely agree with you man


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!.......... [Re: MycoGlowFlow]
    #1794870 - 08/09/03 09:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This is what I always thought. While i don't think there's much difference in mental effects there's certainly a noticeable physical difference between philosophers stones, cubensis and pan cyans.


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OfflineSev
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!...... [Re: MycoGlowFlow]
    #1795847 - 08/09/03 06:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MycoGlowFlow said:
"IMO, there should be no difference between strains other than the differences due to different doses. "


i completely agree with you man




Why is it that people say thi0s about mushroom strains, yet will readily agree that different strains of marijuana give them different highs?


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!...... [Re: Sev]
    #1796483 - 08/09/03 10:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Why is it that people say thi0s about mushroom strains, yet will readily agree that different strains of marijuana give them different highs?




"Cannabidiol, known as CBD, also appears in virtually all varieties of
cannabis. The amount of CBD varies enormously, from a trace to more than
95 percent of all cannabinoids present in a plant. CBD generally has a
sedative effect regarding the high you experience. CBD, when combined
with THC, tends to postpone the beginning of the high, but, the good
part is that CBD can make it last twice as long. Whether CBD increases
or decreases the force of the high is subjective and must be discerned
by each smoker.
Cannabinol, or CBN, is produced as THC oxidizes or degrades. Only a
trace of CBN exists in fresh bud. Stored and cured tops or hashish have
higher levels of CBN, that has converted from THC. Marijuana with high
levels of CBN generally make the toker feel disoriented and often sleepy
or groggy, often referred to as a stupefying high. At best CBN contains
only 10 percent of the psychoactive potency of the original THC.
Tetrahydrocnnabivarin, called THCV, is the shorter three-carbon propyl
that replaces the five-carbon pentyl chain. This compound is associated
with the fragrance of the plant. In other words, very pungent smelling
marijuana normally contains THCV. Warmer temperatures bring out more
smell. THCV is found in very potent marijuana that originated in
Southeast and Central Asia as well as regions in Africa. Concentrations
of THCV usually make the high come on quicker and disappear sooner.
There is still much research to do on this cannabinoid.
Cannabichromene, or CBC, may make up to 20 percent of the cannabinoid
profile in a plant. Little study has been done on this cannabinoid. So
far, researchers believe that it may interact with THC to make the high
more intense." - http://www.marijuanagrowing.com/article.php?sid=23


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!...... [Re: Sev]
    #1796763 - 08/10/03 12:03 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sev said: Why is it that people say thi0s about mushroom strains, yet will readily agree that different strains of marijuana give them different highs?




I've never said that before, and I can't tell the difference between marijuana strains.

MycoGlowFlow, have you ever said that?


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: The cause of the different hights between strainz!...... [Re: Annom]
    #1796801 - 08/10/03 12:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Quote:

Really? Please demonstrate to me one study that indicates that baeocystin is even active, let alone coverted to psilocin in the same way. There arent any - so im wondering where you got that from. 


 
"CHEMISTRY
The primary active ingredients of Psilocybe mushrooms are psilocybin and psilocin,  and to a lesser extent baeocystin and norbaeocystin. The ratio of psilocybin to psilocin varies from species to species. The primary difference between the two compounds is that psilocin is unstable and breaks down when the mushroom is dried, while psilocybin lasts much longer (a 115-year old mushroom sample was found to contain some).  The two are equally psychoactive, since one molecule of psilocybin breaks down into one molecule of psilocin. " -  Erowid - Mushroom FAQ.

Just in case anybody was wondering, that parapgraph does not in any way prove Bluemeanie wrong, rather it merely talks specifically about psilocin and psilocybin, one could be mistaken for thinking that it was a reference for bluemeanie to check out.

Personally I tend to side with bluemeanie on this matter.  Since it is extemely likely that concentration of active chemicals varies with strain (and probably growth medium as well to some extent, if we consider the way our body reacts to differing foods and alkalinity levels in food) it seems very plausable that thousands, millions of years of different climates will produce a degree of  variation. 

I do not understand how anybody could find this very hard to believe, mainly because we all know strains grow differently, there are visual differences quite easy to spot in many cases strain to strain, how someone could think that visual variation could not extend to the chemical level I am not sure. 

However we are talking about chemical effect on our brain, our brain relies on a very precise chemical combination to produce reality as we perceive it, so precise that anything can affect its state.  Saying that I do agree that perhaps sometimes we could be talking about a "placebo" perceived variation in effect.

I would like to end this by saying that whilst we may argue until we're blue in the face we will never all agree, the important thing is, that if you believe in variation then find your brand - and maybe stick with it :smile: 


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