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Offlinedog man
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Potency of caps vs. stems. (Official FAQ thread) * 1
    #1118038 - 12/06/02 06:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

ive known alot of people who seem to think that caps are more potent than stems. is this just a myth or is there really a difference?


Edited by Annom (04/29/05 10:48 AM)


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Invisibledaussaulit
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Registered: 08/06/02
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: dog man] * 1
    #1118092 - 12/06/02 07:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There's a search feature at the top of the post, I suggest you try it out.
I'm assuming your talking about cubensis, as for the difference, there isn't much, just eat the entire thing, what's the problem?


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Invisiblezeta
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Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 3,972
Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: dog man]
    #1118241 - 12/06/02 08:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

no difference whatsoever


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InvisibleMorphrying
Innocent as Hell
Registered: 06/22/00
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: dog man]
    #1118275 - 12/06/02 08:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Studies have shown that caps of cubensis and subbalteatus contain a higher percentage of alkaloids than stems according to J. Gartz. This has been debated, but my guess is that the differing percentage would be hard to notice. MJ would have much better info on this subject than myself.
Check p 290 in Ott's Pharmacotheon for a brief blip!


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Anonymous

Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: Morphrying]
    #1118281 - 12/06/02 08:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

>Studies have shown that caps of cubensis and subbalteatus contain a higher percentage of alkaloids than stems

No they haven't


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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: Anonymous]
    #1118359 - 12/06/02 09:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

why the hell does it even matter, those people that are worried should stop wetting them selves and eating the whole thing.


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Offlineinsanelane
When I touch mypeepee it getsbig
Registered: 11/21/02
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: daussaulit]
    #1118442 - 12/06/02 10:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

half the time, the stems make up like three quarters of the mushroom anyways, well with cubensis.  Like If I knew lots of people that would say "yeah man, the stems are crap" I would be like, oh I wouldn't mind having them  :grin:


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InvisibleMorphrying
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: Anonymous]
    #1118446 - 12/06/02 10:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I guess one reputable reference was not enough to satiate your need for documentation.  So here are some more references..

J. Gartz "Variation der Indoalkaloide von Psilocybe Cubensis durch unterschiedliche Kultvierungsbedingungen"  That's in "Beitrage zur Kenntniss der Pilze Mitteleuropas" pages 275-281 year 1987

J Gartz "Analyse der Indolderivate in Fruchtkorpern und Mycelium von Panaeolus subalteatus"  From "Biochemie und Psysiologie der Pflanzen" page 171-178  year 1989

I believe Gartz is a respectable person, these studies are a bit old, and may have been disproven since then but it hadn't changed by the 96 or 97 printing of Pharmacotheon to my knowledge.  Once again, mj would have a much greater knowledge of the subject than myself, and a response from him may help...

There are your studies for you!
:grin:


Edited by Morphrying (12/06/02 10:04 PM)


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Offlinedog man
biologicallyengineered

Registered: 12/05/02
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Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: daussaulit]
    #1119066 - 12/07/02 02:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, i decided to post this question because I do, in fact, have a bed-wetting problem. I have a reoccuring dream in which I can't figure out wether or not caps are more potent than stems. This particular dream has caused me severe emotional distress as of late, so I decided that asking some experts, such as yourself "daussaulit," was my only opition.

WTFs your problem fool? I searched and didn't find anything so I posted the question. Chill the buck out biznatch.


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: dog man]
    #1119540 - 12/07/02 10:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

caps just weigh more. but they dont have more psilocybin (im pretty sure at least)
every now and then i hook people up with mushrooms, and they insist on the caps... kinda bothers me, especially when they dont believe me there isnt a difference (i have a scale to weigh out shrooms in front of them)
anywho, yea :-)


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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Offlineinsanelane
When I touch mypeepee it getsbig
Registered: 11/21/02
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1119735 - 12/07/02 01:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

also, think of it this way. potency can vary quite a bit from batch to batch. So it could just happen that a cap was more potent one time, or the stem was more potent another time. Does it really matter? I doubt it would make a noticeable difference anyways. Hell, maybe there is a 1 mm patch somewhere on a certain mushroom that is .005% more potent than the rest, does it really matter?


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OfflineShamanSean
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1119817 - 12/07/02 02:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

ur hookin them up with shrooms and they insist on caps? who the fuck are they to insist on ne thing, u should put them in chk cuz thats bull shit. Dont stand for that shit.


--------------------
"So take my advice and dont quit. Cuz if u do, you wont get shit - bitch! "

-Too Short


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: dog man]
    #1120184 - 12/07/02 06:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Basically a stem has just as much to it as a cap does but read the following private letter to me of Bigwood and Beug and some of their thoughts and analusis of shrooms..

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

The Analysis of Psilocybin and Psilocine
By
Michael W. Beug and Jeremy Bigwood

The quantity of psilocybine and psilocine in certain species of mushrooms (notably some Psilocybe and Panaeolus species) is amazingly high, sometimes well in access of 1% dry weight, and typically 0.2 t0 1%. IT is interesting to speculate how and why the mushroom plant expends so much biosynthetic energy to produce a compound of no known obvious use to the plant itself. From the standpoint of the mushroom user, the high level of psilocybine and psilocine means that the mushrooms are potent in crude form without prior isolation or concentration of the active ingredients.

From the standpoint of the chemist, the high levels similarly means that psilocybine and psilocine can be analysed in the crude extracts, without lengthy (and probably expensive) prior separation and concentration. This also means that forensic chemists can quickly and cheaply do the analysis for the prosecution (or defense) in a court case. The picture becomes clouded (beyond the legal implications) when the chemical analyses are complete. A given sample of one known hallucinogenic species is often found to be over ten times as potent as a given sample of another hallucinogenic species. To put it mildly, this could lead to a real surprise for the unwary user. So it would seem that the answer is to discover the potency of one species compared to another. Even There, the answer is disturbing because when samples of the same species from different areas are compared, the amounts of psilocybine and psilocine are found to differ by a factor of 4 or more (Psilocybine and psilocine are sometimes absent altogether in a normally active species). Maybe the answer is to stick to one patch of mushrooms. It turns out that here, too, problems arise. When mushrooms from one patch are sampled from time to time, the levels of psilocybine and psilocine are still found to vary by about a factor of 4 (sometimes more). Well, maybe you can rely on cultivated hallucinogenic species like Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer.

When analyzing samples from various sources we found 6-fold variations among the street samples, with some species only one-tenth as potent to some of our cultivated material. One might at this point be temped to conclude that cultivation of your own strain might be the answer. Working with reproducibly grown mushrooms of a single strain, we found variations of nearly threefold from one flush to another and from one culture to the next. The only consistent trend we found was that the first flush, while it often contained high levels of psilocybine, almost never contained any psilocine. The same was found to be true in mushrooms cultivated by others. However, there was no reproducible trend in total amount (Psilocybine and psilocine) from flush to flush. The inescapable conclusion is that when dealing with wild mushrooms or cultivated mushrooms it is not possible to predict that psilocybine and psilocine level with any accuracy. A user of mushrooms is thus hard pressed to predict dosage.

One of Jeremy Bigwoods analysis: Clock on images to enlarge:



If one notices, both the above noted Bigwood and Beug analysis and the one below by me and gartz show that the caps had a higher content of trytamine alkaloids psilocine/psilocybine in the caps than in the stems.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

and anotehr analysis of Caps and stems of Samuiensis not published in any of my papers on our research to gether in the chemical analysis of P. samuiensis Guzm?n, Bandala and Allen:



According to Ott, he claims that the tems and caps per individual shroom are equal in amount.

One thing for sure is that one can produce even dosages by capsuling their shrooms althoug i do not agree with a capsule becasue of the instant lift off when the effect commence after ingestion of a capsule. Only becasue the Indians of Oaxaca take 15-30 minutres to consume a dosage of shrooms weeather it is 20 P. mexicanas or 1 - 3 P. caerulescens.

It is the slowness of the comeone which brings about a four to six hour expeireience and this is what they are all about. When madde in a tea or soup of smoothie the high is fast and confusing for the first 20 mintues to an hour and down in two hours after ingestion and half the high is lost when the shrooms are consumed in a liquid form.

AS for potency, as Bigwood and Beug pointed out and so have I in innumerable posts that a patch on one side of the street can have twice the potency of a patch on the other side of the steet and from individual shroom to shroom of the same weight can have a different amount of chemicals since there are about four to dfive chemicals in the shrooms that make up the high and they to can vary from between a fator of 4 or 6 to as much as ten when analysed.

Just ea the shroms until you get where you need to be. A potent dose is better than a subthreshold dose which is not wha the high is all about. The average consume of P. cubensis eats from one to two grams and never experiences the full visual effects of what the shrooms are.

mj

Hiope this little info help. Have much more on the subject but have other things to do right now.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (12/07/02 06:06 PM)


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: ShamanSean]
    #1121778 - 12/08/02 11:31 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

lol, damn straight! i gots to stand up for myself! :-)


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #3448961 - 12/05/04 07:00 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

By
Jeremy Bigwood and Michael W. Beug
(Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington.

Summary

Analysis of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer) grown in controlled culture showed that the level of psilocin was generally zero in the first (or sometimes even the second) fruiting of the mushroom from a given culture and that the level reached a maximum by the fourth flush. The level of psilocybin, which was nearly always at least twice the level of psilocin, showed no upward or downward trend as fruiting progressed, but was variable over a factor of four. Samples obtained from outside sources had psilocybin levels varying by over a factor of ten form one collection to the next.

Introduction

When undertaking quantitative analysis of psilocybin and psilocin levels in the Pacific Northwest species, we generally found large variations from one collection to another even within one species and even when all collections were made from a single location (Beug and Bigwood, 1982). In investigating biosynthetic pathways in the formation of psilocin and psilocybin in Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer, we also observed variations in psilocybin and psilocin levels from one fruiting to the next (Chilton, 1979). WE therefore stet out to grow a selected Amazonian strain of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer in carefully controlled cultures and study the variations of psilocybin and psilocin levels with time. We also report here on the observed variation of psilocybin and psilocin levels with repeatted flushes from a single culture and the variation observed in other strains.

Experimental

The strain of Psilocybe cubensis cultivated in this study originated from a spore print taken in the Amazon basin near Pucalpa, Peru (Repke et al., 1977). Mycelium obtained from the spore print was kept as a stock culture on various agars. Since only one flush (fruiting) could be obtained from agar plates, we used a rye-grain medium, described initially in San Antonio (1971), refined by Oss and Oeric (1976), and adapted to "miniculture" by us. A wide-mouth half-pint jar (~250 ml) was charge with 10 g of rye grain and 15 ml of water and autoclaved. It was then inoculated under sterile conditions with a mycelium culture on agar. Every four days for a period of 28 days, weight per miniculture. Each flush was harvested as soon as the sporocarps were mature. The mushrooms ere the jars were shaken to distribute the growing mycelium evenly on the grain. In 28 days, the mycelium had covered the grain and the jars were then opened and the grain was cased (covered with a layer about 2 cm deep) with 2 parts peat : 1 part calcium carbonate : 2 parts perlite and/or vermiculite. The mushrooms were "watered" once every two days with 1 ml of sterile water via syringe. The first flyush (fruiting) occurred four to five weeks after inoculation (about two weeks after casing). The minicultures continued to produce mushrooms for at least 20 weeks provided they remained uncontaminated. They yielded an average of 2.7 g dry weight per miniculture. Each flush was harvested as soon as the sprocarps were mature. The mushrooms were immediately freeze-dried, sealed in plastic and stored at?5 degrees Celsius until analysis. Voucher specimens were prepared for deposit in the University of Washington Herbarium (WTU).

The extraction procedure and analysis was described in the previous paper. The reversed-phase high performance liquid chromatograms were quantified wioth a Hewlett-Packard 3380! Reporting integrator-plotter and calibrated against standards from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. We found a linear relationship (plus/minus 10% repeatability) between concentration and peak area from 0.2 to 3 micrograms total psilocybine or psilocin. The detection limit was about 0.01 micrograms psilocybin or psilocin. The HPLC results were qualitatively confirmed by TLC using butanol-acetic acid-water (12:3:5).

Results

We found that the levels of psilocybin varied somewhat unpredictably from one flush to the next, but generally were much the same on the last flush as they were on the first flush (Table 1). Psilocin, on the other hand, generally was absent in the first one or two flushes, each maximixed by the fourth flush, and then appeared to start to decline (Table 1). Unfortunately, we could generally not follow the decline appreciably since five flushes is normally the maximum we can get before the mycelium stops fruiting. (With miniculture 1, we obtained a sixth flush but the fifth flush was totally consumed in another experiment and is not reported here.)

In two other strains grown by other sources, we also observed nearly complete absence of psilocin in the first flush . In These, we analyzed the caps and stems separately and found that the caps generally contained twice as much psilocybin as the stems, but that the small amount of psilocin present was entirely in the stems (Table 2). In contrast, our Amazon strai hasd a trace of psiloin in the cap but not in the stem. The cap and stem contained equal amounts of psilocybin.

Finally, we analyzed five street samples of Psilocybe cubensis for which we did not know the flush number or the precise growing conditions (Table 3). We found highly variable levels of psilocybin and low levels of psilocin.

TABLE 1
The dry weight variation of psilocybin and psilocin levels in Psilocybe cubensis as a function of flush number (quantified by HPLC.
Miniculture No. 1
Psilocybein?Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
1 8.3---------------0.5
2 6.5---------------1.5
3 13.3---------------1.0
4 4.8---------------2.6
5 --/--------------/--
6 6.8---------------0.5

Miniculture No. 2
Psilocybin?Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
1 5.1---------------0
2 7.3---------------0
3 4.7---------------1.7
4 3.7---------------2.9
5 5.2---------------2.2
6 --/--------------/--

Miniculture No. 3
Psilocybin?Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
1 7.6---------------0
2 6.2---------------0
3 5.3---------------0.9
4 3.2---------------1.8
5 6.7---------------1.7
6 --/--------------/--

TABLE 2
Distribution of psilocybin and psilocin in the cap versus the stem in three strains of Psilocybe cubensis cultivated on rye-grain substrate
M. R. strain-
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)

Caps 9.7---------0
Stems 4.2---------0.35


Equadorian Strain
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)

Caps 7.6--------0
Stems 4.7--------0.4


Amazon Strain
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)

Caps 5.7--------0.1
Stems 5.7--------0


TABLE 3
Psilocybin and psilocin levels in dried psilocybe cubensis "street samples" (all samlples were from material cultivated on a rye-grain substrate)

Sample Psilocybin Psilocin
No. (mg/g) (mg/g)
1---------------5.6----------------0
2---------------6.2----------------0
3---------------0.7----------------0.3
4---------------0.7----------------0.3
5---------------1.3----------------0.3

Conclusions


We found that the level of psilocybin and psilocin varies over a factor of four among various cultures of Psilocybe cubensis grown under rigidly controlled conditions, while specimens from outside sources varied tenfold. IT is clear that entheogenic (Ruck et al., 1979) and recreational users of this species have no way of predicting the amount of psilocybin and psilocin that they are ingesting with a given dry weight of the mushrooms. It thus seems likely that variations in the subjective experience will not only come from the effects of set and setting but will also stem in very real measure rom large dosage differences.

References

Beug, Michael W. and Jeremy Bigwood. 1982. Psilocybin and psilocin levels in twenty species from seven genera of wild mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest, U.S.A. Journal of Ethnopharmacology vol. 5:271-285.

Chilton, Scott., Bigwood, Jeremy and R. E. Jensen. 1979. Psilocin, Bufotonine and serotonin : Historical and Biosynthetic Observations. Journal of Psychedelic Drugs Vol. 11:61-69.

Oss, O. T. and Oeric, O. N. 1976. Psilocybin Magic Mushroom Growers Guide. And/Or Press, Berkeley, California.

Repke, Carl A. P., Leslie, Dale T., and Gast?n Guzm?n. 1977. Psilocybe, Conocybe and Panaeolus. Lloydia Vol. 40:566-578.

Ruck,Carl A. P., Bigwood, Jeremy., Staples, Danny., Ott, Jonathan and R. Gordon Wasson. 1979. Entheogens. Journal of Psychedelic Drugs Vol. 11:145-147.

San Antonio, J. P. 1971. A laboratory method to obtain fruit from cased grain spawn of the cultivated mushroom : Agaricus bisporus. Mycologia vol. 63:16-21


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InvisibleHendostan
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Re: potency of caps vs. stems [Re: Annom]
    #3448966 - 12/05/04 07:09 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: nice bump...it's really not hard to figure out why people's experience differs from person to person, even when ingesting from the same batch. not only does the content change from one strain to another, but it changes in every single mushroom...just as i suspected, thanks for the info


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Potency of caps vs. stems. (Official FAQ thread) [Re: dog man]
    #5153390 - 01/08/06 09:57 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Research shows caps a bit more potent.

Do caps or stems contain more psilocybin/psilocin?


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