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A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....?
    #5510604 -

Since it seems to be common debate topics of skeptics versus believers, this is why I am making this post....
I would like to think we are all seeking the truth, no matter what the answer may be.... 
So I will ask a hypothetical question just to see what it turns into.....    :grin:

Do you think that the world would be a "better place" if there was no belief in a higher power, spirituality, or blind faith....?

Just speaking about general human moral here, do you think the changes in beliefs of ALL people in such a manner would be a positive, negative, or neutral (in general), and why....?

Curious about your thoughts....


>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5510632 -

Do you think that the world would be a "better place" if there was no belief in a higher power, spirituality, or blind faith....?

cut/paste

Well, we wouldn't have:

-Suicide bombers

-Witch burnings at the hands of the Catholics

-Endless killing in Northern Ireland

-Genocide in Rwanda

-War in Bosnia-Herzegovina

-Civil war in Sudan

-Extreme, radical fundamentalist Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan

-Fragile peace in Bosnia holding only due to the presence of UN peacekeepers

-Ivory Coast murders of Muslims at the hands of the government

-Fragile peace in Cyprus holding only due to the presence of UN peacekeepers

-Ongoing conflict in India among Animists, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs

-Fighting between Christians and Muslims in Ambon Province in India

-Repeated killings over Kashmir by Hindus and Muslims who both claim it on religious grounds

-Hundreds of people in South Africa murdered each year for being witches

-Poor Galileo would not have been inquisitioned and threatened with torture if he didn't denounce his earlier claim that Jupiter has moons. The old scientist was was sentenced to life in prison anyway.

-And Ahmadinejad, Iran's leader, would not believe a divine Saviour known as the Mahdi will appear on Earth after a worldwide cataclysm and be developing nuclear weapons for the purpose of starting World War 3 and hastening His arrival.

So, uhm... yeah, the world WOULD be a better place without mysticism.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5510634 -

Well, I'd get along with the rest of my family much better.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5510689 -

Nothing much significant would change in my opinion. People still worship and idolize people today, which blind them to truths. People still believe in the higher cognizant powers and human abilities of others, that blind them to other truths. People still power trip over others with tools like wealth, position, material possessions, titles, and man made laws. People still Fight and go to war for non religious reasons. People still live in fear causing them to do irrational things who have no such beliefs in the beyond.

You get my drift.

Most everything "not good" people blame on religion, spirituality or beliefs in higher powers, are really just the result of power tripping ego maniacs hiding behind "religious/spiritual guises"

Okay, that would change. They would hide behind something else.:lol:

Some things may get worse. Some people withhold from harming others and go out of their way to help others because of religious or spiritual beliefs. It's hard to speculate if more people would more easily cause harm to others and say "fuck it to helping people" if those things faded from our global culture and awareness.

It's all speculation though. I am curious to see what others have to say.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5510705 -

the 'new age' section of the bookstore would be empty...  :frown:

Mel Gibson would be way poorer...


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5510712 -

not necessarily.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5510738 -

Replying to this.

I agree with mostly everything you said but just want to say that the peace in Cyprus has nothing to do with religion as I know that first hand.

Not according to the authors of the Geneva Spiritual Appeal.

They were a group of world religious leaders from Buddhist, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian, Jewish, Muslim and many other faiths who met in Geneva in 1999 to issue a document, The Geneva Spiritual Appeal, asking political and religious leaders and organizations to ensure that religions are not used to justify violence in the future. Delegates believed that the then-current 56 conflicts around the world all had religious elements, including the one in Cyprus.

Yes, all these things would not have happened but then more "fragile" people that need to believe in something bigger brighter and good may eventually turned out to be criminals or most probably feel extremely insecure atc.

The reason 'fragile' people need a crutch is because of the shitty world mysticism has created for us all. Were the people of the Earth to give up mysticism and the wasted resources, oppression, and violence required to keep of the facade of truth alive, 'fragile' people would have no need to make up something 'good' to physiologically compensate for all the 'bad'.

Anyway people need to believe and so they do.

No they don't.

People are TAUGHT to believe by their well-meaning parents, and so they do. Virtually everyone grows up believing whatever flavor of mysticism (or atheism) their parents believed, and atheists aren't any more 'fragile' than anyone else.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/13/06 02:20 AM)

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5510750 -

Some Cons of no mysticism:
-many people would have nothing to turn to when things got tough. It has been said that "religion is the opiate of the masses," and often religion is more of a placebo. People pray for something to get better, and if it does they praise their diety. If it doesn't get better, they accept it as the will of that particular diety. Regardless, people find peace that their god is working for them. Ignorance really is bliss, and I think in this case the ignorance can be fairly positive
-many relief organizations/charities are based on religion. Without a God to provide moral standards of helping others (I also admit that many only help as a way of "buying their way into heaven" while they should help people no matter what), it could turn into more of a "dog-eat-dog" world where survival of the fittest took newer and uglier forms.

Some Pros of no mysticism:
-(See Diploid's post)
-No Jahova's Witnesses knocking on my door, and best of all, no Mormon families handing out religious pamphlets on Halloween instead of candy! But then again, Halloween is based on a pagan celebration so without no mysticism it wouldn't exist anyways. However, I would like to think that modern consumerism (exacerbated by the fact that people would no longer have "intangible rewards to believe in) would solve this problem by simply creating more holidays of indulgence.

Just some of the Pros and Cons. It is a tough decision for me, since I believe in some sort of higher power or force. However I do think that if he is not weeping over today's world, he is laughing at the absurdity and the lengths that people will go to in order to please him. I would like to see this discussion continue and learn more from you all.


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-CUBErt
:cubie::levitate::cubie:

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5510766 -

Don't believe everything you read. Bush went to war to free the people of Iraq right. Anyway as I said, I know this first hand because I am greek, the war we had with the Turks goes a very long way back and has nothing to do with religion.

Yes, you are right about why the "fragile" people are "fragile". I fully agree.

I don't agree with your next statement though. I think that people firstly needed a god and so they created it...in the process, different nations created different religions. Nobody taught them these religions when they were created. People need to believe. The need to believe that there is someone who can help them in their time of need. I am not using "need" as in "have to" believe like all of them. Some people need it, others don't. Also, ofcourse they are taught. They, most of us, have been brainwashed to believe from the first years of our life. I think that it is a combination of the two. Peoples insecurity and need and the brainwashing that in turn makes the religions supporters more which then makes them feel better as in the relativity concept. What the majority thinks is right, is right. Which is ofcourse wrong...


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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5510789 -

People need to believe. The need to believe that there is someone who can help them in their time of need.

Is it better to let a mother deny the death of her son indefinitely while insisting that he'll be home soon rather than to bring her gently to the painful Truth?

All lies are bad, even the ones that are comforting.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5510801 -

It depends on what results you want to achieve, long-term or rhort-term. Also, always leave a possibility that what some religious people believe is true, because if you don't, you just end up as narrow minded as they are. :-)


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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Shroomerious]
    #5510881 -

Also, always leave a possibility that what some religious people believe is true, because if you don't, you just end up as narrow minded as they are.

I always leave room for that. To do otherwise is dogma and mystics already have a monopoly on that.

However, while I leave room for the possibility that the Tooth Fairy exists, until we're introduced, I won't believe for one second that she does.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5510884 -

Why believe in anything at all?

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5510893 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Why believe in anything at all?


:lol:

If you didn't believe your post would go through and be read, why did you type it?

If we don't believe shampoo cleans our hair, why would we use it?

If we don't believe cars run on gasoline, why would we fill our tanks with it?

If we don't believe our house keys will unlock our front door, why do we lock it?

What good are facts if we don't believe them?

Beliefs serve a purpose for getting us through the day.:yesnod:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5511895 -

Those aren't true. Those are actions based on proven facts.

I can prove to you that my key unlocks my door, and then do it, I don't need to believe in it in order for it to work.

@Diploid: Those are all examples of extremist views. A small minority does not speak for the majority of Christianity.

Quote:
People are TAUGHT to believe by their well-meaning parents, and so they do. Virtually everyone grows up believing whatever flavor of mysticism (or atheism) their parents believed, and atheists aren't any more 'fragile' than anyone else.


Yet another blanket statement. No one taught me to believe in the neo-shamanism or taoism, and there's a lot of people here on the boat with me.

To sum it up, a belief gives a person hope, some light at the end of the tunnel where there might be none other. You have to realize Diploid that some people have really shitty lives due to famine, disease, AIDS, cancer, poverty - man you fucking name it - and to think that once this is all over they'll be in the ground, rotting, is a really pessimistic and depressive thought.


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: Fospher]
    #5512291 -

Religion is just used to control people. Give up your money, destroy the environment by expecting God to clean it up, become a terrorist and murder people for making cartoons of your delusional prophet Muhammed, etc.

YES times a billion I think the world would be better without belief in a higher power pulling the strings.

Also, if I was a hot chick I would totally give it up to Diploid for that list of faith's evil outcomes.


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Namaste

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5512331 -

In my opinion, we could definately do without the blind faith... such as strict christianity. I think that spirituality, and seeking truth is good overall if people would stop arguing about it. It is built into every one of us to ask these questions, and we must each INDIVIDUALLY seek the answers for the benefit of our souls. But the path may be different for different people. (to an extent)
I am Bahai. I believe that most religions come from the same God, and they are all just peices of a bigger picture, but people think that their one specific religion is the only path to God. I also believe that christianity has been largely missinterpereted over the course of two thousand years, and people take metaphors too literally.
Just my thoughts...


--------------------
"There are days of doubt, more often lonely nights, when even the devout wonder if they are heirs to a greater kingdom than this earth and if they will know mercy -- or if instead they are only animals like any other, with no inheritance except the wind and the dark."

"You will never understand what reality truly is until you first decide to open your eyes to see if it exists." -Me

"Never take any human word for devine fact. Truth comes only from truth itself. Question everything. Challenge reality itself. Search for answers with new and untainted perspectives. Submit your experiences and your ego and you will be enlightened to what is beyond our understanding of what is." -Me

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: The_Oracle]
    #5512413 -

I think that perhaps there ought to be a distinction made between blind faith and other faith; to me 'blind' faith boils down to an individual (or a group) believing in something without personal investigation - which is, needless to say, concerning.

Though there is belief involved in daily life; Fospher you say you don't need to believe that the key will unlock your door - because you can prove it... but, just because it has worked when you come home for the last 14days, doesn't necesarily mean it will everyday - what if some part breaks of, or its bent, if thi happens without you realising it won't work... but you still would attempt to push it into the keyhole because the daily pattern of your life, and the number of times the key has worked, has served to establish  this belief for you.

Discussing whether 'the world would be a better place' etc. is somewhat academic; I don't think it'll happen - people have had totems, idols, and gods as part of society for a long time - I think that it would take some majoy alteration in human psychology to rid the human mind of this propensity to believe.

And even f we rid ourselves of the 'old' religion - new icons to worship spring up... celebritities, football teams, authors - all ausing people in various ways to imitate them, follow them and 'worship' them.

An interesting read on the subject woul be the novel "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman... really, really good - only just recently finished reading it myself and I would thoroughly recommend it.

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


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"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: CUBErt]
    #5512512 -

"many people would have nothing to turn to when things got tough."

NO! People would actually realize that when things get rough, the proper response is to DO something instead of wringing their hands, dropping to their knees, and asking the imaginary genie for more wishes! The very fact that people turn to religion for help when they are in need is a tragedy. If people didn't expect God to provide, they wouldn't blame nonbelievers for getting in the way of His provisions.


--------------------
Namaste

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Re: A world WITHOUT blind faith, Spirituality, a higher power, etc....? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5512605 -

RedNukleus said:
Religion is just used to control people. Give up your money, destroy the environment by expecting God to clean it up, become a terrorist and murder people for making cartoons of your delusional prophet Muhammed, etc.


Dont reply to my post if you dont bother reading it.


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010001100100001001000101!

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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