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Re: Auras....? [Re: leery11]
    #5456444 -

You seem to be defining magic into a hole of impossibility

I define magic as anything that is claimed but that has no rational mechanism by which it occurs and that no one can demonstrate in controlled conditions even though they claim the ability to do so.

Seeing auras, for example.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Auras....? [Re: leery11]
    #5456454 -

im gonna eat this grain of salt. and then go back to looking at auras. xanthas and leery you both have been more than helpful.


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Re: Auras....? [Re: leery11]
    #5456508 -

Consider lucid dreaming. It has been practiced since the beginning of time yet very few have had lucid dreams and it isn't until recently that it has even been proven to be a scientific possibility

But the things we're talking about here ARE measurable. It is a simple matter to test whether or not someone can see auras. Same for telepathy, remote viewing, telekinesis, laying on of hands, psychic surgery, dowsing for water, [fill in your favorite mystical mumbo jumbo].

These things are testable and have been tested over and over without the tiniest shred of evidence that they are real.

Disbelieving in them is not closed-mindedness, rather it's common sense given the available evidence.

I do want to point out again that someone with powers strong enough to clearly predict future or manipulate the present, really dramatic things that this foundation so direly wants to measure...... are going to be reluctant to divulge such things in the first place.

Then why not do it anonymously and save countless lives and untold suffering at the hands of earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes? Doesn't the fact that this has never happened tell you something?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5456529 -

all the common sense and logic in the world will never get you to "the source/supreme consciousness/collective consciousness."
common sense is not what spurred my great journey with the mushroom.  :mushroom2:


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Edited by ShroomDoom (03/29/06 09:12 PM)

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5456535 -

umm yes it does. you seem like you are being overtly argumentative to me... i don't think people can fly around and pick people up off rooftops during hurricane like superman.

and i'd like to see the anti-aura study you've been referencing so i can get a feel for what we're talking about.... its becoming confusing and unclear.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5456559 -

(Somewhat off topic, but I do believe there existed a group of oneironauts who provided great evidence for the existence of lucid dreams. It was found that one can control movements of the eyes in reality by looking around during dreams. One can use eye movements to communicate information from within a dream to the outside world.)


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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Re: Auras....? [Re: leery11]
    #5456571 -

I mean first off if you can see chakras, you have to be looking at a person that is intimately familiar with their chakras so that when you say "his solar plexus is open" the person can verify that yes, their solar plexus is open. So I don't know. I do think it could be scientifically proven.... but then again how do they know that that person isn't in it with you for the money

Testing the seeing of chakras as you describe above is functionally no different than testing telepathy. One person (the chakra observer) claims to know what the other (the person opening their chakra) is thinking. There are already many well-established methods for testing this that preclude any possibility of cheating.

What use would it have if you COULD see chakras? What use to science? If you could diagnose disease with auras then yeah.

You can't know what potential benefits may come from a real demonstration of this. For one thing, it would instantly create an entire new branch of scientific inquiry, the fruits of which could eventually benefit mankind in ways we can't even imagine. The principles, if real, could be applied to medicine, art, literature, music, who can say.

It makes no sense to keep such an ability to oneself.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Auras....? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5456580 -

Xanthas said:
(Somewhat off topic, but I do believe there existed a group of oneironauts who provided great evidence for the existence of lucid dreams. It was found that one can control movements of the eyes in reality by looking around during dreams. One can use eye movements to communicate information from within a dream to the outside world.)

that's correct. Stephen Laberge conducted such eye movement experiments.

What I'm saying is we had to wait for technology to catch up thousnads of years with basic human practice for lucid dreaming to be even accepted as a real phenonmon, rather than a prevailing view that such things are imipossible.

and indeed i would understand why many think lucid dreaming is impossible, direct transitions of consciousness from awake to dream are rather difficult.

what i'm trying to say is if people have auras, science will be able to READ auras eventually. and i do believe it has been documented that our bodies emit various forms of energy fields.... has it not?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5456583 -

Xanthas said:
(Somewhat off topic, but I do believe there existed a group of oneironauts who provided great evidence for the existence of lucid dreams. It was found that one can control movements of the eyes in reality by looking around during dreams. One can use eye movements to communicate information from within a dream to the outside world.)


like a "flick eyes to the left once for 'A', twice for 'B'" etc?


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Re: Auras....? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5456586 -

ShroomDoom, you should read the rules and the idea behind this forum. This forum is for a discussion about ideas, don't make it a personal thing.

If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Annom]
    #5456589 -

im open to criticism but...jesus.
maybe i was just having a bad day?
ok this is me "fucking off"
watch closely or you might miss it.  :syringe:


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Edited by ShroomDoom (03/29/06 09:25 PM)

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5456593 -

Diploid said:
For one thing, it would instantly create an entire new branch of scientific inquiry, the fruits of which could eventually benefit mankind in ways we can't even imagine. The principles, if real, could be applied to medicine, art, literature, music, who can say.

It makes no sense to keep such an ability to oneself.


true but people can already use chakras [if if they only exist subjectively] to heal, as they can use tai chi to heal as they can use meditation and visualization to heal as they can use prayer to heal.

Such things have been studied a bit though, I recall looking at prayer specifically.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (03/29/06 09:24 PM)

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Re: Auras....? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5456595 -

ShroomDoom said:
all the common sense and logic in the world will never get you to "the source/supreme consciousness/collective consciousness."
common sense is not what spurred my great journey with the mushroom.  :mushroom2:


Ever consider that there might not be one? Or that humans are not always logical beings? (I also disagree with Diploid's use of the phrase "common sense". Logic is a far better term, as many aspects of "common sense" are more accurately termed "cultural myths".

leery11 said:
i don't think people can fly around and pick people up off rooftops during hurricane like superman.


Firstly, why not? Secondly, someone who was strongly psychokinetic (or could commune with the elements, whatever) could maybe stop said disaster? (or ask it nicely to go away?) Thirdly, I think psychokinesis, if not able to be used like that, would be one of the least useful of the abilities. Remote viewing could allow one to see the disaster brewing. Precognition, if it exists, should strongly respond to such a dramatic event.

Another point, why would such a development of powers necessitate the giving up of all contact with money? As has been said many times before, why not both A) Prove something remarkable to the scientific community and B) do many good works with a million dollars?


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5456617 -

Xanthas said:
Ever consider that there might not be one? Or that humans are not always logical beings? (I also disagree with Diploid's use of the phrase "common sense". Logic is a far better term, as many aspects of "common sense" are more accurately termed "cultural myths".



all the time. but i dont know which idea is scarier me believing in one and there not being one, or vice versa. im just going to have to continue the search.


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Re: Auras....? [Re: leery11]
    #5456620 -

umm yes it does. you seem like you are being overtly argumentative to me... i don't think people can fly around and pick people up off rooftops during hurricane like superman.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that someone with the ability to predict natural disasters could warn coastal countries before a tsunami devastates the lives of millions. Why has this never happened?

and i'd like to see the anti-aura study you've been referencing so i can get a feel for what we're talking about.... its becoming confusing and unclear

I gave the link twice already. Also, read the JREF Discussion Board where people claiming magical powers tell the JREF exactly how they would like to be tested and exactly what will constitute a win. In 40 years that the JREF $1 million prize has been on the table, not one person has ever done what they claimed they could do.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Auras....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5456650 -

im perfectly ok with all of this stuff remaining in obscurity and under the context of metaphysics. if god came down to earth tomorrow and said "i exist! and so does blah blah blah blah blah" that would be rather dissapointing. i like the whole idea of the quest for knowledge and self-realization.


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Re: Auras....? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5456658 -

(I also disagree with Diploid's use of the phrase "common sense". Logic is a far better term, as many aspects of "common sense" are more accurately termed "cultural myths".

Heheh... "common sense" was a reactionary phrase I find myself using because whenever I use the word logic in this forum, the mystics all tell me that logic does not always apply to the real world (whatever that means). The phrase "common sense" was a preemptive move.  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Auras....? [Re: Diploid]
    #5456672 -

i hate how you label people with an open mind towards metaphysics....
we're not mystics...just seekers.


--------------------

Edited by ShroomDoom (03/29/06 09:39 PM)

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Re: Auras....? [Re: leery11]
    #5456679 -

leery11 said:
and indeed i would understand why many think lucid dreaming is impossible, direct transitions of consciousness from awake to dream are rather difficult.

what i'm trying to say is if people have auras, science will be able to READ auras eventually. and i do believe it has been documented that our bodies emit various forms of energy fields.... has it not?


Actually, there's a rather distinct difference between claims of auras and claims of lucid dreaming.

In one, a person claims to have had a subjective experience in which, during the barrage of dream-imagery, they became aware that they were dreaming. If I claim that I see a zebra dance through my house, but didn't consume any drugs, yet you had only ever heard of hallucinations being experienced by people on drugs, saying my experience (which I never claimed happened objectively) is false is based on false premises.

The other is a claim of an objective thing. This can be proved or disproved.

doxhevex said:
like a "flick eyes to the left once for 'A', twice for 'B'" etc?


More like "rapidly up and down for when you attain lucidity, rapidly side to side before waking yourself up."

leery11 said:
true but people can already use chakras [if if they only exist subjectively] to heal, as they can use tai chi to heal as they can use meditation and visualization to heal as they can use prayer to heal.

Such things have been studied a bit though, I recall looking at prayer specifically.


Yes, but science is in the business of finding out what exists objectively. If tai chi or whatever only work by reducing stress, increasing general health, etc., then science wants to know. If it actually has the effect of what people claim it does, then science also wants to know.

I also remember looking at prayer/meditation. They were found to be predictably no better then each other/placebo.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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Re: Auras....? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5456688 -

Xanthas said:
Firstly, why not?

this all goes far too abstract. someone with such abilities would to me transcend their very human nature and have no need to stay on a human level.... at this point karma comes heavily into play and i'm reminded of a story in which an arhat goes to save a village from being murdered by shrinking the people and putting them in a bowl, only to find when he returns to wherever he came from that all the people in the bowl are dead. the buddha said that they could not escape their karma.

now viewed from a cynical mind you'd say "that's just an excuse" but you have to understand buddhism. with transcendence of ego comes omniscience but in order to transcend ego ALL karma must be stopped..... you cannot interfere and you cannot save people from their own misfortunes. secondly if on 9/10 you told everyone to leave new york how many would? There was a composer who right before 9/11 frantically wrote a musical piece out of a fever of inspiration..... but such things can be seen as coincidence....

obviously on any given day if you say "there's going to be a disaster" you're going to be right sooner or later. onely it may mean that you are sensitive to such things but two-ly it may mean that the future is not also written in stone, or maybe it was just a coincidence.

hell you know what... no one will believe this but i predicted a school shooting in ohio based off my dreams and it shortly happened thereafter, i even posted about it on a message board before it happened but you know what..... the dream... it was vague...... it was not enough for me to claim that I am a psychic.... only that I pieced something together and it happened to be right, nothing more or less....... now I have had enough things like that happen to know that if my dreams want to they will go that way, but I am not arrogant or foolish enough to claim that I can regularly divine the future from my dreams, or to even be able to tell beforehand if a dream will or won't be valid.

take it how you will. did you ever stop to think that disasters happen to the people they happen to for a reason? This is the answer as to why someone... namely a human being, wouldn't be able to do such things....... not to say it's a definitive answer, who knows what.... it's the only way i can answer you.

Quote:
Secondly, someone who was strongly psychokinetic (or could commune with the elements, whatever) could maybe stop said disaster? (or ask it nicely to go away?)

and how do they prove this "Th world will end tomorrow unless I choose for it not to........ *waves his hands dramatically* there... now we're all safe." But maybe they could and if so they do.
Quote:
Remote viewing could allow one to see the disaster brewing. Precognition, if it exists, should strongly respond to such a dramatic event.

mmm yeah ..... well okay let's look at a show called "the lone gunmen". planes were almost flown into the world trade center by a shadow government wanting to create the illusion of terrorism if i recall correctly, the episode aired in 2000.

then it happened a year later in real life.

Nothing stopped it. Just because you see something coming ... or KNOW something is coming because many people did know either intuitively or from fact or from intelligence reports... doesn't mean you can stop it. How do you get people to listen? Remember the Twilight Zone where a man finds himself in the times of Lincoln and tries to warn everyone of the assassination and they lock him up becasue he's going crazy that no one will listen? Seriously dude if I flat out told a group of people not to go somewhere because something would happen how many of them would?

I'll give you another one. I dreamed of a football game being bombed.... the location was wrong... but something almost happened. I warned the proper authorities in the dream and told them to leave knowing fully well that most wouldn't. I didn't think anything of the dream... just a curiosity like "hey wonder if this will happen." it almost did....... within 5 days of the dream max I'd say.

I didn't have enough information, not the name of the bomber, not what he looked like...... not even enough of a conviction to go out and warn people...... I didn't know it was going to happen.

And I can't know... I can't know until it does and the occurences are too sparing for me to have an "ability" or a "power" but nonetheless enough for me to pay attention to these dreams when they do come up, just in case. Plus if everyting I dreamed came true drugs would be legal by now..... not even a small fraction of them come true... perhaps it is just because I have better recall than most people that I see more co-occurences?
Quote:
Another point, why would such a development of powers necessitate the giving up of all contact with money? As has been said many times before, why not both A) Prove something remarkable to the scientific community and B) do many good works with a million dollars?


like i said, because you would be a guinea pig, because of karma, because of spiritual development, because of the fact that if these things are really only a small number of beings are likely to posess them.... because WHY DO YOU NEED MONEY? If I can fly............. ummm.... do I really want a million dollars? Fuck that I can fly...... I can spend my whole life happy that I have proven physics wrong....... why do I need money?

For science it would be a noble affair, but if someone could fly... would the government leave them alone? This is the government that poisons people with radiation to learn about the effects without their knowledge or consent.... such a prize to be had... the only flying man in the world that demonstrates his abilities to us.

you'd better fly the hell out of America and ..... how long would it take to get that million? You'd have to set up a way for it to be wired all sorts of covert ways so you could pick it up wherever you fled to.

or maybe you agreed to dedicate yourself directly to science but at your own terms and your own pace. you'd still be monitored. everywhere you go people would demand that you fly for them because they are still skeptical..

why?

The odds of being able to levitate are so low that someone who is able to already has something more precious than a million dollars and the spiritual teachings that led him to that realization are more important than scientific knowledge. If you want to levitate attain enlightenment....... the text is already there...... you'd just come off as an anti-christ to the public's eyes................

if the NORMAL AVERAGE JOE could fly then I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have proven it to Randi though, I will give you that.......


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (03/29/06 09:46 PM)

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