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Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ?
    #5412953 -

Why do people associate order with goodness and chaos with evil. Sometimes Order can produce mass evil. (governments) And evil can control with order. (Hitler)

When did this association start and why?

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413111 -

i don't associate them that way

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413221 -

BuddahKillah said:
Why do people associate order with goodness and chaos with evil.  Sometimes Order can produce mass evil. (governments)  And evil can control with order. (Hitler)

When did this association start and why?


I've never heard of this association, first and foremost. Secondly, there isn't any true distinction that seperates chaos and order. The fact that we personally do not understand the mechanics responsible for the nature of "chaos" certainly doesn't imply that it is without order.

Essentially, its either all chaos or all order.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5413531 -

Well, let me put this another way. Most people think that order is good... why? Is it better to be chaotic or orderly ?

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5413702 -

BuddahKillah said:
Well, let me put this another way. Most people think that order is good... why? Is it better to be chaotic or orderly ?


Because humans are naturally afraid of the unknown. If something is unpredictable, then we cannot guarantee safety. To add to that, most people are control freaks who can never let go.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5414130 -

"In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface, got it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began to teach that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order. "Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.

It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite. But anyway, Greyface and his followers took the game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were known even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from their own.

The unfortunate result of this is that mankind has since been suffering from a psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and frustration causes fear. And fear makes for a bad trip. Man has been on a bad trip for a long time now.

It is called THE CURSE OF GREYFACE."

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5414184 -

If I may ramble a bit I'll compare a bomb with chaos; War torn, rubble strewn streets with chaos; but after the bomb has created chaos reason seeps back in. Chaos may be a rebellion against reason, violent and temporary, and reason seeps back in, the grass grows, streets are swept and people go on about their lives.

It's a rebellion against the inevitable.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

Edited by Booby (03/17/06 06:48 PM)

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5415137 -

fireworks_god said:
Essentially, its either all chaos or all order.



:yesnod:

It's all based on the observers point of view or state of mind. It really has nothing to do with good vs evil either....more of a easy vs hard thang.

The person who has his life under control could be seen to be in a state of order, life seems easy and laid back for them.

The person who has not got his life under control could be seen to be in a state of chaos, life seems hard and trying for them.

We as humans try to put our life in some kind of order, to make it easier to deal with.

When I first started my new job things were very  difficult and chaotic.
Now things are very easy and orderly.

Nothing about the job is different other than my point of view or state of mind.

Not being overwhelmed by chaos is key to understanding the order behind the madness.

:wink:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5415176 -

i think this is an important question.

i agree with most of what's been said.

it's my personal belief, based on my life's observations, that order and chaos are two opposing forces that permeate each other. order strives to maintain consistency, predictability, structure. chaos opposes order on every scale throughout the endless universe. without both competing in the proper balance, life would not exist.

what i just said might sound hoakey to some, but i have some arguments to support it, although i should state as a disclaimer: these ideas are not my final conclusions...it's what makes the most sense to me at the moment.


--------------------

Edited by pupil (03/18/06 05:03 AM)

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? *DELETED* [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5415187 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (03/18/06 05:08 AM)

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: dorkus]
    #5415193 -

order is boring.

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fresh313]
    #5415201 -

Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Booby]
    #5415213 -

Booby said:
Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.


Order and/or chaos has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Both are merely subjective classifications applied to the same phenomenon that have no effect on the phenomenon itself.

Order/chaos is an illusion that we create. Picture that.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: dorkus]
    #5415215 -

dr_mandelbrot said:
They are only (imaginary) yin and yang.



:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: pupil]
    #5415216 -

pupil said:
it's my personal belief, based on my life's observations, that order and chaos are two opposing forces that permeate each other.


And where do these two, opposing forces exist within, pray tell?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5415407 -

Well no doubt existence itself is order emerging from, or even composed of, chaos.

Every living organism is a self-organizing system which must create an equal amount of disorder in its surroundings to maintain a certain level of order within. This is the law of entropy, that the universe tends to move towards a more chaotic state.

And even matter itself, is a chaotic cloud of subatomic probabilities which self-organizes into "solid", symmetrical forms.

Order and Chaos feeding off of each other. Perhaps it is true that they are not different at all.

A characteristic of life and self-organizing systems is that they act through replication. A pattern that supports itself and propagates itself will continue to exist, whereas a pattern that negates itself will cease to exist. This can be seen most explicitly in evolution and natural selection.

As humans we embody this kind of self-support and propagation. We fuck and multiply, we farm the land and feed ourselves, and we organize into groups to maximize our efficiency. If we don't do these things then we do not propagate and we cease to exist.

And so our bias towards order over chaos is simply an expression of our tendency to exist. To emerge as self-created beings...


--------------------

http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5415408 -

fireworks_god said:
Booby said:
Without order you wouldn't have a PC, X-box or music. picture that.


Order and/or chaos has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Both are merely subjective classifications applied to the same phenomenon that have no effect on the phenomenon itself.

Order/chaos is an illusion that we create. Picture that.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


PC's, Xboxes and music have a lot to do with organizations, order.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: Booby]
    #5415569 -

I don't know if X-Boxes are good :lol: But perhaps they stem from chaos, projected upon order again ? :lol:
I mean, if order does not let any room to beathe, then it is time for chaos to do some good :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/18/06 11:05 AM)

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #5415636 -

chaos is the epotimization of destruction. people think destruction i sbad.

Order is the opposite. Life exists not withour supreme order. How long would one live with a body that has become completely chaotically dsiarrayed. Life would not suffer long there.

The real misconception stems from peoples misunderstanding of live.

It is my firm believe that every philosophy and thought process is a direct result with our inherent and unctrollable desire to live.

Thus we associtate disorder whether organic or not, idealogical or tangible with evil because it goes agaisn the very nature of oder, the thing so desperately needed on a cellular level to continue to live.

ImpHO

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Re: Order = Good / Chaos = Evil ? [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5415653 -

Considering the term "chaos" in the mathematical/scientific sense (as opposed to the general descriptive word relative to our own perspective, as in, "this room is chaos, everything is thrown around everywhere"), it is quite evident that our universe is chaos.

Chaos has order. Even in the example pertaining to a general use of the term, the room is full of clutter, objects strewn about as if completely by random.

And yet, the state that the room is in is orderly. Specific actions placed each item where it is. The room is an organized system - the term chaos is merely employed by someone ignorant of that organization.

If anything, the recognization of order is "good" in that to recognize order is to understand, and understanding benefits oneself and one's life. Chaos is really ignorance of one's environment, which would thusly be classified as "evil" because it is a detriment to life.

Essentially, chaos/order is a false dichotomy. As I have already stated, it is either all chaos or it is all order. Mathematics and science, which are responsible for our understanding of the physical aspects of reality, seem to refer to it as chaos ("A dynamical system that has a sensitive dependence on its initial conditions."). :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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