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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4945776 -

Yep.

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945780 -

kilgore_trout said:
isnt it funny that anarchism and communism are supposed to be no government?



Communism = no government

that is funny


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4945798 -

rogue-pixie writes:

Quote:
Because the fact of the matter is something like this should not even have to be CONSIDERED or PROPOSED. It's sickening.



Really? How then are new insecticides and chemicals supposed to be certified by the EPA as safe for household use? All the test subjects for a new pesticide "Bugstomper" show no problems whatsoever, so after the usual dozens of studies and decades of testing the EPA allows "Bugstomper" on the market. Within a few years, an alarming number of children in households where "Bugstomper" is used sicken and die, even though the adults of those same households are unaffected.

Do the parents of those children get to sue the EPA for approving "Bugstomper"? Why no, they don't, for the EPA has a bulletrproof defense -- the EPA was prohibited by law from doing the tests which would have shown the harmful effects on children and would have led the EPA to withhold certification.

Quote:
If there isn't enough opposition, which let's face there needs to be enough AWARENESS about the issue before anyone can openly oppose such vile practises then there's a chance of it being passed.



I imagine that is why the EPA is inviting comments from the public on this issue and why organizations such as organicconsumers are spreading the word and concerned citizens such as cateyes are posting the information on various boards aimed at activism.




Phred


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Phred]
    #4945806 -

I think that something like this should appeal to the misanthropes in the animal rights movement. Personally, I'd prefer to see bunnies tested.


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4945818 -

yes real communism equals no gov, ever read MARX!?

the soviet union was totalitarian, very uncommunist. thats what the whole trotsky thing was about, right?

Anarchism is political, as it pretty much meets with real communism in the end. Both are radical democracies with somewhat diff views and means.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: cateyes]
    #4945899 -

i would strongly agree that this practice was borrowed directly from the nazis.. godwin is dead wrong in this case...

the legal precedent prolly goes back to the 1950s..when entire towns were deliberately exposed to nuclear fallout in order to test its effects on human flesh...the SCOTUS (i dont have a link to the actual case..i think it was in the 1980s) later ruled that the govt was entirely within its rights to do so too...

but as egregious as the nuclear tests and their subsequent legalization were..they at least did not discriminate on the grounds of social status and/or genetic conditions...the current proposal definitely does..and thats what gives it a distinctive nazi ring...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Phred]
    #4945903 -

Stephen Johnson, March 4 2005, i believe you are citing a ban initiated by Barbara Boxer who was in direct opposition to Johnson and his policy, this happened in july of the same year but obviously is of only marginal effectiveness otherwise this would not even be proposed. So it is actually somewhat immaterial. His work concerning these issues was well known and included in any records concerning him and his long tenure for the EPA. He worked on this shit under Leavitt, and was of top personnel.

it was known and reasonable to expect he continue regardless of weak "bans" that apparently have little effect.

so if you want to go by dates, bush appoints him with all this shit well on record before one could say it is illegal anyways so it doesnt matter, as if his espousal of illegal proceadures does not matter. Then in response to him, probably his most major critic and opponent initiates a ban that has not proven effective.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: daimyo]
    #4945944 -

daimyo said:
Bush has no responsibility here. He is not the head of the EPA, and would not be on the IRB that would determine what would happen IF this testing were ever to take place at all.



Bush is the president, it is his responsibility, he has the power to do something about it.

If he lets this happen, then he is to blame.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4945949 -

perhaps neither of you read that he appointed the guy? but yes, i guess his not saying anything in a position of authority and influence matters too.


--------------------
"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Solutarch]
    #4945952 -

Solutarch said:
I think that something like this should appeal to the misanthropes in the animal rights movement.  Personally, I'd prefer to see bunnies tested.



People who believe in animal rights are not misanthropes. :rolleyes:

In fact, they are more likely to be more philanthropic.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945956 -

Not only that, but he is head of the Executive, which means he controls all executive bureaucracies. One executive order, and this isn't an issue.

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Phred]
    #4945972 -

Phred said:
rogue-pixie writes:

Quote:
Because the fact of the matter is something like this should not even have to be CONSIDERED or PROPOSED. It's sickening.



Really? How then are new insecticides and chemicals supposed to be certified by the EPA as safe for household use? All the test subjects for a new pesticide "Bugstomper" show no problems whatsoever, so after the usual dozens of studies and decades of testing the EPA allows "Bugstomper" on the market. Within a few years, an alarming number of children in households where "Bugstomper" is used sicken and die, even though the adults of those same households are unaffected.

Do the parents of those children get to sue the EPA for approving "Bugstomper"? Why no, they don't, for the EPA has a bulletrproof defense -- the EPA was prohibited by law from doing the tests which would have shown the harmful effects on children and would have led the EPA to withhold certification.

Quote:
If there isn't enough opposition, which let's face there needs to be enough AWARENESS about the issue before anyone can openly oppose such vile practises then there's a chance of it being passed.



I imagine that is why the EPA is inviting comments from the public on this issue and why organizations such as organicconsumers are spreading the word and concerned citizens such as cateyes are posting the information on various boards aimed at activism.




Phred



Huh.......what? Are you actually defending this obscene proposition? :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4945999 -

For the hysteria mongers here who don't realize that this increases already existing protections and who can't grok the value of human testing as a final step in approving safe use criteria I offer this from one of the links at the OCA site:

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-GENERAL/2005/September/Day-12/g18010.htm

"SUMMARY: EPA proposes and invites public comment on a rulemaking to ban
intentional dosing human testing for pesticides when the subjects are
pregnant women or children, to formalize and further strengthen
existing protections for subjects in human research conducted or
supported by EPA, and to extend new protections to adult subjects in
intentional dosing human studies for pesticides conducted by others who intend to submit the research to EPA. This proposal, the first of
several possible Agency actions, focuses on third-party intentional
dosing human studies for pesticides, but invites public comment on
alternative approaches with broader scope."..............

And:

"SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: This proposed rule, the first of several
possible Agency actions, would significantly strengthen the ethical
framework for conducting and reviewing human studies, especially
intentional dosing human studies for pesticides.
With respect to human research conducted by EPA (``first-party
research''), or by others with EPA's support (``second-party
research''), this proposed rule would: (1) Categorically prohibit any
intentional dosing studies involving pregnant women or children as
subjects; and (2) adopt the Department of Health and Human Services
(HHS) regulations that provide additional protections to pregnant women and children as subjects of other than intentional dosing studies.
With respect to human research conducted by third parties--i.e., by others without any support from EPA or other federal government
agencies--the proposed rule would: (1) Categorically prohibit any
third-party intentional dosing studies for pesticides involving
pregnant women or children as subjects; (2) extend the provisions of
the Federal Policy for the Protection of Human Subjects of Research
(the ``Common Rule'') to all other third-party intentional dosing human studies intended for submission to EPA under the pesticide laws; (3) require, before testing is initiated, submission to EPA of protocols and related information for proposed research covered by this extension of the Common Rule; and (4) require information about the ethical conduct of covered human studies when the results of the research are submitted to EPA."

As to why there is a need for testing of this kind at all see this:

"A. How EPA Assesses Risks to People

The Agency's understanding of potential risks to people is usually
based on tests performed with laboratory animals. For example, EPA
typically requires pesticide companies to perform over 20 different
kinds of animal studies to identify or measure toxic effects before a
pesticide can be registered for use. These studies differ in the kinds
of animals used, the duration of exposure, the age of test animals, and the pathway of exposure--through food, air, or the skin. When they are considered together, they provide a good general understanding of a pesticide's potential effects. Comparable animal data are usually
available when EPA makes regulatory decisions about other kinds of
environmental substances as well.
Animal studies, however, are not the only source of relevant
information for characterizing potential risks. Sometimes EPA can
better understand the potential risks of a substance by looking at how
people respond when they have been directly exposed to it. For example, EPA uses information from accident and incident reports, in which people may have been exposed to a substance after a spill or some other unintentional release. EPA also uses data from epidemiological studies comparing health outcomes of two otherwise similar groups of people who differ in their level of exposure to a particular substance (e.g.,those who work with a chemical vs. those who do not).
In addition to incident and epidemiology data, human exposure
studies have also improved EPA's risk assessments. EPA often bases its
estimates of potential human exposure to environmental substances on
monitoring studies measuring concentrations of a substance in air,
water, food, or on surfaces. This kind of information about
environmental concentrations can then be used to predict the amount of
a substance people will breathe, eat, drink, or absorb through their
skin. Sometimes, however, the relationship between environmental
concentrations of a substance and potential human exposure is unclear,
and can be understood only through research involving human subjects.
For example, the actual exposure of a farmer applying a pesticide will
depend on such factors as the type of spray equipment used, the amount
and kind of pesticide used, the type of protective clothing worn (e.g., gloves, respirator, long pants), and how many hours are worked each day. To determine more accurately the exposures farmers and other
applicators actually receive, EPA requires pesticide companies to
measure the amount of pesticide deposited on an applicator's body and
clothing during a spray session. The results of studies like this
provide critical data about exposures that can be used to define
protective standards for pesticide handlers and applicators. Without
these and similar studies characterizing the exposures received by
individuals in the normal course of their work and daily life, the
Agency would not understand adequately either what types of application equipment and protective clothing were necessary for a pesticide to be used safely, or how soon harvesters or others could safely enter pesticide-treated areas.
Another type of human study that can contribute to EPA's risk
assessments involves intentional exposure of subjects to low doses of a substance to measure how the substance is absorbed, distributed,
metabolized, and excreted in humans. Humans respond to some substances
in different ways from animals, and studies of this kind can provide
essential support for safety monitoring programs, such as those which
analyze and measure the known metabolites of a substance in the blood
or urine of workers or others to determine if they've been exposed to
the substance.
Although EPA has not and will not use its authorities to require or encourage it, third parties have occasionally conducted and submitted to EPA reports of research involving intentional dosing of human subjects to identify or measure toxic effects. These studies typically involve intentional exposure to an environmental substance in a controlled laboratory or clinical setting.
Decades of experience in reviewing both animal and human studies of all kinds has demonstrated that animal data alone can sometimes provide an incomplete or even a misleading picture of the safety or risks of a substance. Sometimes human data show that people are more sensitive than animals, and support regulatory measures more protective than would be indicated by animal data. This has been the case, for example, for arsenic, certain air pollutants, and certain pesticide active ingredients such as methyl isothiocyanate (MITC) and hexavalent chromium. More often, though, information from human studies confirms insights based on animal testing. Even in these cases, however, the availability of scientifically sound human data can strengthen the basis for EPA's regulatory actions."

To reiterate, the Bush demonizers seem to be thinking that all was peace and love and no chemical testing in the Pax Clintonia. This is clearly untrue. I'm sure the OCA would like for there to be no pesticides at all. This would, however, lead to much greater hunger and poverty


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4946072 -

rogue_pixie said:
People who believe in animal rights are not misanthropes.



Some are and they are some of the most vocal and militant, this is easily discerned by reading their own words as well as taking note of their actions. I did not say that all people who believe in animal rights are misanthropes. I said, "the misanthropes in the animal rights movement." If I were to say, "the fundamentalist Christians in the Republican party" I would not be referring to the entire Republican party as there are obviously members of the party who are not fundamentalist Christians.


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4946083 -

rogue_pixie said:
Bush is the president, it is his responsibility, he has the power to do something about it.

If he lets this happen, then he is to blame.



The reason there is a head of the EPA is because the President has MANY other more pressing issues to contend with. If you want to put the workload of all these departments on his lap, then I don't know what to tell you.

Sure, if he has a moral objection to it, then he could step in and do something. But I think he hires these people so they can do it. And congress can step in, as they have here, and put an end to things that are "morally repugnant".

Why think that Bush is some kind of multi-tasking superhuman? He can't do everything.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4946094 -

Quote:
Huh.......what? Are you actually defending this obscene proposition?



Sigh.

Why don't you read what I wrote a few more times until it sinks in.

The simple fact of the matter is that without human testing no new chemical products would ever be approved by the EPA. Ever. Fortunately, at the moment human testing is allowed, but if the pool of human subjects excludes children and pregnant women, it necessarily follows that no new products will ever be approved for use in locations where pregnant women and/or children might come into contact with said products.

I understand that some Luddites would be delighted if no new chemical products would ever be approved -- that we as a species make do with what we have now. The thing is, not all humans are of the Luddite persuasion. They would like the benefits of new products but would also like the benefit of knowing in advance that some of these new products should not be used near children and pregnant women.

If you find the stance of the non-Luddites to be "obscene", I can't stop you from feeling that way. It takes all kinds to make a world.





Phred


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: daimyo]
    #4946097 -

bush appoints the head of the EPA, did you not get that?


--------------------
"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Solutarch]
    #4946104 -

Solutarch said:
If I were to say, "the fundamentalist Christians in the Republican party" I would not be referring to the entire Republican party as there are obviously members of the party who are not fundamentalist Christians.





thats not obvious to a lot of members of this forum....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4946127 -

kilgore_trout said:
yes real communism equals no gov, ever read MARX!?





"How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. "

Ronald W. Reagan


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4946132 -

kilgore_trout said:
bush appoints the head of the EPA, did you not get that?



daimyo said:
he hires these people



Do you not read posts? Are you here just to troll?

You are trying to pass the blame from the people it squarely rests with(EPA, the ones doing the testing, congress that sets the laws) to further your agenda of Bush bashing. It's pathetic.
For the record(again) I don't care for Bush. If he were to die tomorrow it wouldn't bother me in the least. Same with 99% of the politicians currently in office.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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