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OfflineOOOO
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Registered: 04/21/03
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Swami]
    #1482114 - 04/22/03 01:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Saddam Hussein's regime has murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. It has started wars with its neighbors costing over a million lives.

I am confident that the end of the Ba'ath regime will result in many lives saved.

It is unfortunate that a few thousand civilians have died in the past month during America's attack on Saddam Hussein.

It is far more unfortunate, however, that for the past decade, the world chose to respond to Saddam Hussein with a passive approach which only impoverished the people of Iraq and subjected them to rule by cruel dictatorship.


Edited by OOOO (04/22/03 01:39 PM)


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1485092 - 04/23/03 03:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Saddam Hussein's regime has murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.




I hear that a lot lately. I'm sure that he killed many and I know that many had to leave Iraq because of the regime, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number that will be accepted by historians in the next decades would be 10 times smaller that those that are being reported by media today.
Similar thing happend with Pol Pot in Cambodia. Many years later it came out that the secret bombings and its consequences killed many more people then the bloody dictator.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1485111 - 04/23/03 03:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

thank you


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1485206 - 04/23/03 04:55 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You forget, they like to blame the deaths caused by the sanctions on saddam as well :smirk:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Paid]
    #1485246 - 04/23/03 05:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You forget, they like to blame the deaths caused by the sanctions on saddam as well :smirk: 



Rightly so seeing as the sanctions were as a result of actions taken by Saddam.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1485270 - 04/23/03 06:20 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yay saddam gets sanctioned, his people die while he lives like a king.Good idear. Not....
Any other bright ones?


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Edited by Paid (04/23/03 06:22 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1485403 - 04/23/03 09:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

zeronio writes:

I hear that a lot lately. I'm sure that he killed many and I know that many had to leave Iraq because of the regime, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number that will be accepted by historians in the next decades would be 10 times smaller that those that are being reported by media today.

The media reports the numbers that the human rights groups deliver. Depending on which human rights group you choose to believe, the number of deaths caused by Hussein only through murder and through imprisonment with a later "disappearance" of the one arrested, the number is 300,000 on the low side to just under a million on the high side.

Add to that the number of Iraqi conscript troops killed in his attempted invasion of Iraq and his invasion of Kuwait, and the total increases by more hundreds of thousands or even a million.

Finally, add any deaths caused by the effects of twelve years of UN sanctions. No matter how often those who attempt to shift the blame from Saddam proclaim otherwise, the inescapable truth is that the sanctions were the direct result of Hussein's actions in 1990, and that they could have been lifted at any time had he merely complied with the terms of the conditional surrender he signed.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1485653 - 04/23/03 12:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the inescapable truth is that the sanctions were the direct result of Hussein's actions in 1990, and that they could have been lifted at any time had he merely complied with the terms of the conditional surrender he signed.

What exactly didn't he comply with pink? Where are the WMD? Looks like they were all destroyed years ago.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1485947 - 04/23/03 01:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

pinksharkmark:
"the inescapable truth is that the sanctions were the direct result of Hussein's actions in 1990, and that they could have been lifted at any time had he merely complied with the terms of the conditional surrender he signed."

Alex123:
"What exactly didn't he comply with pink? Where are the WMD? Looks like they were all destroyed years ago."

Alex, you are attacking a small part of what he said; the smallest part, actually.

Sanctions aside, numerous human rights groups report that Hussein's police state killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. These numbers do not include the count of people killed in his failed attacks on Iran and Kuwait.


Edited by OOOO (04/23/03 02:37 PM)


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1486266 - 04/23/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

pinky: ok, your words were written as if you are 100% sure the states had nothing to do with Saddam. I am close to 90% so you win :wink:

BUT - you have to accept the fact that the United States of America has been long building the foundations of an Empire. At this moment, the elite leaders behind the clowns are extremely powerfull. The future is in front of us to see what will happen, if the Empire will fall before our eyes close. I doubt.


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1486761 - 04/23/03 06:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the smallest part, actually

Are you trying to say WMD were a smaller part of why sanctions were imposed than human rights?

numerous human rights groups report that Hussein's police state killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

So Saudi Arabia is next for invasion? If this is all about human rights and not WMD they should be.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1486842 - 04/23/03 06:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Are you trying to say WMD were a smaller part of why sanctions were imposed than human rights?"

No I am not. I didn't mention weapons of mass destruction in my post. Nor did I make any statement about the reasons behind the UN sanctions against Iraq. I don't know where you got that idea from.

Here's what happened Alex:

1. I said that Saddam Hussein's government was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

2. Zeronio disputed this.

3. Pinksharkmark affirmed that Hussein's government did indeed kill a large number
of people. He based this on three points:

a) As described by various human rights groups, Saddam Hussein's government executed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

b) Hussein's government started wars costing over a million lives, including many Iraqi conscripts.

c) Hussein brought sanctions upon his country, impoverishing it and causing even more deaths.

4. You attacked pinksharkmark's argument only by addressing the third and final point, the sanctions.

5. I pointed out that whatever can be said about the sanctions, the larger part of pinksharkmark's statement, the part about Hussein's government murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians and starting catastrophic wars, still stands.

It was really very simple.


"So Saudi Arabia is next for invasion? If this is all about human rights and not WMD they should be."

Did I say that?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1486867 - 04/23/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You attacked pinksharkmark's argument only by addressing the third and final point, the sanctions

Didn't have time to address every point. Sanctions are pretty important.

Hussein brought sanctions upon his country, impoverishing it and causing even more deaths.

Last time i checked it was other countries imposing sanctions, not Iraq. They imposed sanctions because they alleged Saddam was developing WMD. It now looks like he wasn't and didn't have any. So the sanctions have slaughtered well over a million people including 700,000 children under five. Certainly killed far more civilians than Saddam ever did.

the part about Hussein's government murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians and starting catastrophic wars, still stands.

Well he's killed less civilians than the sanctions, and the US heavily supported his war against Iran. So what exactly is your point?

Did I say that?

Why do you think the sanctions were imposed?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1486952 - 04/23/03 07:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It also looks like they are holding children at Camp X-Ray. Do you think children should be subjected to those conditions?


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1487004 - 04/23/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Alex, do you know where Iraq is?

It is a place at one time called Mesopotamia. It is the "fertile crescent" where agricultural society was born. The Tigris and Euphrates rivers supply huge amounts of water which can be used for irrigating farmland. Indeed, Iraq has over 50,000 square kilometers of arable land. Much of this farmland is used to grow staple crops like wheat, barley, and rice. Despite what some may say, half a million children have not starved from UN sanctions.

Since the beginning of the sanctions, the Iraqi government has been blaming almost every single civilian death on the sanctions. In 2001, they claimed that 1.6 million people had died as a result of the sanctions.

The sanctions were imposed by the UN Security Counsel in response to the Iraqi government's non-cooperation with weapons inspections.

"Well he's killed less civilians than the sanctions"

Even if we assume that the sanctions were unjust and that they weren't Hussein's doing, that statement is still untrue. Also, the US did not heavily support his campaign against Iran. A small amount of covert aid and encouragement does not translate to "heavily" supporting.

Hussein's government intentionally murdered several hundred thousand Iraqi civilians, far more than UN sanctions did. (Unless you believe the Iraqi government's claims that virtually all civilian deaths since 1990 were a result of the sanctions).


Edited by OOOO (04/23/03 07:57 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1487374 - 04/23/03 10:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

kykeon writes:

BUT - you have to accept the fact that the United States of America has been long building the foundations of an Empire.

No, I don't accept that "fact" because it is not a fact at all. You have a weird understanding of the word "empire". Rome had an empire. England had an empire. The Ottoman dynasty had an empire.

The US not only doesn't have an empire, they are not building the foundations of one either.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1487927 - 04/24/03 01:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The sanctions were imposed by the UN Security Counsel in response to the Iraqi government's non-cooperation with weapons inspections

ALLEGED non-cooperation. It now looks increasingly likely Iraq has no WMD. Seems like they did cooperate after all.

Hussein's government intentionally murdered several hundred thousand Iraqi civilians, far more than UN sanctions did. (Unless you believe the Iraqi government's claims that virtually all civilian deaths since 1990 were a result of the sanctions).

You don't have to believe the Iraqi government. You can believe the UN head of the oil for food programme Dennis Halliday, and his successor who both resigned in disgust at the "genocidal sanctions policy". Halliday said that the sanctions were killing 4-6000 children every month and that figure was "probably on the low side". You're not seriously suggesting Saddam killed more civilians than this are you?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1487960 - 04/24/03 01:58 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The US not only doesn't have an empire, they are not building the foundations of one either.

Do you think they have an economic empire? And if you can control the economies of countries is there any need to occupy them?


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1488136 - 04/24/03 03:03 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Let's suppose that the UN sanctions did actually kill as many as some are claiming. Let us also suppose that the sanctions were unjust, and that Saddam Hussein's government had been fully complying.

How is this an excuse for Hussein to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people?

If the UN's sanctions were "genocidal" and had killed 1,600,000 people and were killing thousands more every month, isn't it a good thing that the United States stepped up, and even against the wishes of the UN, ended this policy?

According to your numbers, the United States' war killed about half as many civilians as the UN's sanctions did over the past 5 weeks.


Edited by OOOO (04/24/03 12:12 PM)


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1488456 - 04/24/03 06:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No, I don't accept that "fact" because it is not a fact at all. You have a weird understanding of the word "empire". Rome had an empire. England had an empire. The Ottoman dynasty had an empire.
The US not only doesn't have an empire, they are not building the foundations of one either.



Sounds sad that u r with those few on this planet who doesnt see the Empire. All thinking people on western societies feel EVERY DAY that their goverments belong to the USA and pay lots of money to the Empire. Greece is not free at all; unfortunately most countries are like that. Example: last year the turks invaded a small greek rocky island with no inhabitants in Aegean sea. The United States said to the turks to leave. They did. Our prime minister thanked the President of United States for helping us [although we didnt need any help]. If you think that Greece and Turkey are free to do whatever they want without asking the Empire, let me tell you are wrong.

And last but not least, who gave the USA the right to 'help' all the planet? answer: noone, they just took the part by themselves. thats an Empire allright


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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