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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Phred]
    #4945656 -

Because the fact of the matter is something like this should not even have to be CONSIDERED or PROPOSED. It's sickening.

If there isn't enough opposition, which let's face there needs to be enough AWARENESS about the issue before anyone can openly oppose such vile practises then there's a chance of it being passed. And it worries me. A hell of a lot.


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"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4945665 -

I find it funny that you say that, considering you're the one who first made a blatant and unfounded partisan comment in this thread.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Tao]
    #4945677 -

Bush and republican congress are of some responsibility here yes, not total but important.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945683 -

Seems like a lose-lose situation to me.

If the EPA or FDA lets an unsafe chemical get approved and/or sponsored the typical answer is: "Screw them, they only want the money and big pharma/chemical is in bed with the gov't".

If they want to do more testing, the ethics are questioned.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: badchad]
    #4945685 -

badchad said:
Am I doing something wrong?


Yes. The 70 FR 53865 23.408 will not be found because it is not in the text. 70 is the volume in the Federal Registrar. 53865 is the page number in the volume. So that is the 70 FR 53865 part. You have to concern yourself with the rest. But you mistakenly cited it as 23.408 and it is 26.408

Search the PDF for 26.408 and you will find what you are looking for.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Tao]
    #4945689 -

hahahah i see...

its OK to blame bush for this.

but god forbid i call the EPA a leftest organization.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: badchad]
    #4945696 -

its not lose-lose

sure they shouldnt approve shit that is unsafe to help big corps, but this testing issue is about using ethical testing. ie, no bullshit approvals, use moral testing.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: badchad]
    #4945697 -

badchad said:
Granted, it's fucked up the way the article presents the case.  But it seems there is a little more going on here.

I think they are referring mainly to "third party" research reports.  Which would include reports not supported by the EPA (e.g. studies done in foreign countries).

Also, the article cites several passages (e.g. 70 FR 53865 26.408(a)).  Yet when I search the PDF document I cannot find them.  Anyone know where this is from?


i'll provide this link to make it simple for everyone...

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-GENERAL/2005/September/Day-12/g18010.htm

70 FR 53865 26.408(a) is:    page 53865 section 26.408(a)

it's there within the over a 30 page document... i hope this helps you...

:peace:
cateyes

Edited by cateyes (11/17/05 09:17 AM)

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945707 -

no one said bush was "to blame" we said he has a degree in responsibility here due to factual realities. Its still crazy to call the EPA leftist and dismiss them as such.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945719 -

Bush has no responsibility here. He is not the head of the EPA, and would not be on the IRB that would determine what would happen IF this testing were ever to take place at all.

Before anyone debates this further, take the time to read the PDF or the HTML version. It'll take a little while, but if you feel so strongly about it, come to the table informed.
If this is to be a referendum on ethics, it is better suited for the Philosophy forum.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945728 -

It is "leftist" in the way that leftist classically means "more gov't" and "right" classically means "less government".

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Redstorm]
    #4945733 -

bush's responsibilty is in his appointing of the head of the EPA that is for this and worked with the shit before being appointed. Bush knew and the Republican controlled congress knew. He didnt write the shit, but he put the dude there. Like i said, not total but important.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945738 -

i pointed out that he appointed the head of the EPA knowing about this shit. that was one of my first posts in this thread.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945743 -

I'm not trying to argue his point, just trying to explain it.

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: daimyo]
    #4945744 -

daimyo said:

If this is to be a referendum on ethics, it is better suited for the Philosophy forum.




i never considered the philosophy forum to be honest... good point... my feelings were because it requires a response from the public one way or the other it fell under law and activism.

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: cateyes]
    #4945755 -

redstorm, that wasnt directed at you. it was about bush and the epa, not about "leftism" though i can see how you could construe ot to be since bush appointing the dude makes it "rightist" in a sense.


ps-isnt it funny that anarchism and communism are supposed to be no government?


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945758 -

i think discussion of ethics has bearing in both forums. This is about ethics in politics, activism, and law. both forums maybe could discuss, and youd get somewhat different discussions maybe, but both valuable and appropriate.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945764 -

Quote:
i pointed out that he appointed the head of the EPA knowing about this shit.


An interesting assertion. Care to back it up?

Start by naming the man.

Then give us the date he was appointed, paying particular attention to the date of Congress's bill permanently banning testing on children and pregnant women.

Then show that Bush had questioned him about his stance on testing chemicals on children.

I don't know what you do for a living, kilgore, but practically the whole of my working life has been spent in a management capacity of one sort or another. Despite my best efforts, there have been times when people I assigned to certain tasks made decisions I would not have made and even made some decisions of which I vehemently disapproved. That's what happens when you can't do everything yourself.

I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you have never had anyone reporting to you in your working life.





Phred


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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945763 -

kilgore_trout said:
ps-isnt it funny that anarchism and communism are supposed to be no government?


Yeah, the problem is, since "pure communism" has never been attained, it is usually typified as the socialism that precedes it, therefore sticking it on the "left".

Anarchism, on the other hand, seems like it would not even be on the political spectrum.

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Re: Human Test Subjects [Re: Redstorm]
    #4945768 -

Redstorm said:
It is "leftist" in the way that leftist classically means "more gov't" and "right" classically means "less government".


Then, since by that definition Bush is on the far-left (I'd say one of the leading leftist politicians currently in practice), is he complicit regardless?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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