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Offlinekykeon
Dead wishes

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1,506
Loc: A universe right next to ...
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Human Rights... the Bush Way
    #1478238 - 04/21/03 06:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I was sent these photos and thought that everyone should see:







...no comment.




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The living ghost of Kykeon


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1478240 - 04/21/03 06:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Imagine the media outcry if you had seen american pows treated like that in Iraq.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePaid
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Posts: 5,376
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1478242 - 04/21/03 06:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Disgusting.But not supprising.We already saw Iraqi prisoners paraded on
tv while the news reports condonded the Iraqis for doing the same thing with
there prisoners of war.Double standards are pretty common at the moment it
seems.


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Offlinekykeon
Dead wishes

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1,506
Loc: A universe right next to ...
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Paid]
    #1478254 - 04/21/03 06:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Does any of these soldiers feel akward with the facts?

(a) that even if those arrested people are the worst criminals ever [i doubt], its not that cool to tie them up inside the airplane like that. Their arms will be pulled out if the flight lasts many hours.
(b) that they are being photographed...


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


Edited by kykeon (04/21/03 06:42 AM)


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1478334 - 04/21/03 08:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

One soldier seems to be placing his hand over his face to
avoid the picture.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1478372 - 04/21/03 09:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why is anyone surprised? The government treats citizens in a like manner. Get stopped with a 1/4lb in your car and see how you are treated.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Offlinekykeon
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1,506
Loc: A universe right next to ...
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Paid]
    #1478402 - 04/21/03 10:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

One soldier seems to be placing his hand over his face to
avoid the picture. 




yeah... at least he proves he is human. I dont blame the soldiers, as they are ordered to do whatever they do [although sometimes they act by themselves]. But imagine, if NOONE accepted to be a soldier, then no war could be done. But this is sooooooooo fuckin unrealistic; its in our nature to behave like the crudest animals. Sometimes i ask myself if EVERYONE attended gatherings with Entheogens, to worship LIFE in its purest meaning, could this prevent humans from being so raw? I doubt. I think its only us that we understand and feel differently and can improve ourselves thru the use of Entheogens. Pls comment on that. :smile:
 


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1478556 - 04/21/03 11:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

These people are held in Guantanamo just to make Americans feel that they're safe. Terrorists are behind bars. Even if they were probably just some peasants working on their poppy fields when they were picked up. Meanwhile the war in Afghanistan still continues, it just doesn't make it to the main news.

This forum is a good example that use of Entheogens doesn't really change people. Many support war anyway. I hated the army ever since I remember. Maybe because I live in an area where 1 million people died in 1917-18. It's easier to find bayonets, skulls & ammunition in the woods then mushrooms. I cannot even imagine what was going on here. A symphony of stupidity.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1478972 - 04/21/03 02:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

...I live in an area where 1 million people died in 1917-18





Because of one shot fired in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914...


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Offlinekykeon
Dead wishes

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1,506
Loc: A universe right next to ...
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: grib]
    #1479293 - 04/21/03 04:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:


...I live in an area where 1 million people died in 1917-18




Because of one shot fired in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914...







Or because of one ape who was born a tiny amount more clever than the rest. And his mind invented a bubble to hold this ape in it safe. Conciousness of Existance. And then what? Whats the meaning of life? Each of us discover it in a different place. Some like to seek for it thru oppressing others.

I start to think that my race, the fuckin human one, is the most cursed of them all. We are so hopeless to help even ourselves.


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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Anonymous

Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: grib]
    #1479307 - 04/21/03 04:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There was a huge tension behind that.. the shot was fired for a reason


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Anonymous

Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1479313 - 04/21/03 04:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i'm a little confused as to what your point is. are these men not prisoners? is it uncommon for prisoners to be kept inside fences and bound by their hands?


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: ]
    #1479351 - 04/21/03 05:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well it might be common in america, but most of the rest of the world
thinks that that could be classed as cruel and unusal punishment.

Does the way there tied and blind folded seem ok to ??if so i would have hated to grow up were you did.


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Paid]
    #1479379 - 04/21/03 05:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  The Monocles- Psychedelic (That's Where It's At)



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Anonymous

Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1479867 - 04/21/03 08:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This forum is a good example that use of Entheogens doesn't really change people. Many support war anyway.

i was wondering when someone was going something like that. i disagree with you.


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Anonymous

Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: ]
    #1480308 - 04/21/03 10:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

actually, i think he was dead on. this forum has practically every viewpoint represented. mushrooms don't lead one to any conclusions they couldn't have come to anyway. they can serve as a catalyst if one really wants to see things differently, but there is no worldview that mushrooms inevitably lead everyone to.


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InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
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Posts: 8,808
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1480406 - 04/21/03 11:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Your point is???? Where are the broken limbs and beaten senseless??? This is pretty humane and normal to how someone should be treated if they were to be trying to kill me.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1480414 - 04/21/03 11:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There is strong evidence that many of these "illegal combatants" were mistreated, and even tortured to death in at least 2 cases. These pictures however, are nothing special in my opinion.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1480423 - 04/21/03 11:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Does any of these soldiers feel akward with the facts?

(a) that even if those arrested people are the worst criminals ever [i doubt], its not that cool to tie them up inside the airplane like that. Their arms will be pulled out if the flight lasts many hours.
(b) that they are being photographed...




I don't think their arms will be pulled out

Their faces aren't being shown so there's no prob.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1480430 - 04/21/03 11:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If some of the prisoners were tortured/killed those responsible need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I have as of yet seen no evidence of this happening however.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1480438 - 04/21/03 11:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is strong evidence that many of these "illegal combatants" were mistreated, and even tortured to death in at least 2 cases.




And if so, then what about the Coalition POWs??


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: z@z.com]
    #1480482 - 04/21/03 11:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Army Probing Deaths of 2 Afghan Prisoners

I'm not sure whatever became of the investigation.

The Northern Alliance also massacred surrendering Taliban forces, with encouragement (which I admit they probably didn't need much of) from the U.S. Department of Defense.


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1480502 - 04/21/03 11:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And if so, then what about the Coalition POWs??

America should treat its prisoners of war justly, even when its enemies do not.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1480508 - 04/21/03 11:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleJohan Shultz
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Registered: 09/26/00
Posts: 169
Loc: UTOPIA
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1480651 - 04/22/03 12:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

This forum is a good example that use of Entheogens doesn't really change people. Many support war anyway.




I'm 200% w/you at this point. I can't belive those members of THIS comunity are so fucking blind!!!! Can't you dumb asses see that your rights have been taken away from you??? All this war bull shit was made up that someone can become richer, to create more sheep, and make those who are sheep already even more sheepy.

PS So why did some of our vendors shut down their sites in US??? HMMM... may be they were not patriotic anough :smile:


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Johan Shultz]
    #1480657 - 04/22/03 12:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.


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InvisibleJohan Shultz
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: wingnutx]
    #1480708 - 04/22/03 12:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

maybe, but I don't wanna go MEEEE...


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Johan Shultz]
    #1480721 - 04/22/03 12:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm 200% w/you at this point. I can't belive those members of THIS comunity are so fucking blind!!!! Can't you dumb asses see that your rights have been taken away from you??? All this war bull shit was made up that someone can become richer, to create more sheep, and make those who are sheep already even more sheepy.




And those who oppose you say the same thing. Both sides are guilty of the same propaganda and all that shit. To believe otherwise is pure ignorance.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: ]
    #1481468 - 04/22/03 05:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

i'm a little confused as to what your point is. are these men not prisoners? is it uncommon for prisoners to be kept inside fences and bound by their hands?




These pictures seem quite brutal to me. What frightens me is that no laws apply to these people. They're in fact political prisoners.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1481531 - 04/22/03 06:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

anyone have a link to a web page featuring those pictures? I want to post them on another forum but I won't link them to the shroomery becasue of the bandwidth thing. Thanks to anyone that can give a link to it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinekykeon
Dead wishes

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1,506
Loc: A universe right next to ...
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1481547 - 04/22/03 06:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

first of all, the fact that Saddam is an asshole, doesnt give the Americans the right to bomb innocent people, force ill people to death with the absence of medicine nor treating the enemy soldiers like that.

secondly, no iraqi man, woman or child harmed ANYONE in the US and even if someone did so, the States shouldnt be punishing a whole nation which was under dictatorship.

thirdly, if there is someone responsible for Saddam being the dictator of Iraqi people, let me tell you that he was from the States. America put Saddam there.




--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1481623 - 04/22/03 08:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What he said :grin: ^^


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1481650 - 04/22/03 08:25 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1481652 - 04/22/03 08:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"first of all, the fact that Saddam is an asshole, doesnt give the Americans the right to bomb innocent people, force ill people to death with the absence of medicine nor treating the enemy soldiers like that."

I do think the Americans are doing there best to avoid bombing innocent people. The civilian death toll in this war has been remarkably low. I think it was a bad idea to use cluster bombs though.

I assume that by forcing ill people to death by lack of medicine you're talking about the UN economic sanctions against Hussein. You're right, their whole society should not have been punished for the deeds of one man, but what other choice was there to respond to his non-compliance? Perhaps if a quick military campaign to remove Saddam Hussein had been executed 10 years ago, it'd would have been alot better than ten years of economic sanctions. Instead, a passive approach, which did nothing but penalize civilians, was instituted by the UN.

Now the United States has stepped up to end this policy, with or without international support. Hopefully they will have the ability and integrity to follow up the war with proper rebuilding and fostering a true democracy. We shall see.

"secondly, no iraqi man, woman or child harmed ANYONE in the US and even if someone did so, the States shouldnt be punishing a whole nation which was under dictatorship."

Correct. See above.

"thirdly, if there is someone responsible for Saddam being the dictator of Iraqi people, let me tell you that he was from the States. America put Saddam there."

Yes, but that was just a move in the Cold War chess game, and it was almost 40 years ago. The fact that the United States placed such a man in power only strengthens the case that it is the United State's responsibility to "take care" of him.


Edited by OOOO (04/22/03 08:35 AM)


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1481654 - 04/22/03 08:32 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I start to think that my race, the fuckin human one, is the most cursed of them all. We are so hopeless to help even ourselves.




I really hope that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space 'Cause there's bugger all down here on earth! :laugh: 


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1481668 - 04/22/03 08:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The fact that the United States placed such a man in power only strengthens the case that it is the United State's responsibility to "take care" of him.




Maybe that would make sense some time ago, but now I cannot trust the country that does things like shown on the above pictures and against the standards of entire world community. The idea that this war was about liberation Iraquis seems like a joke in this case.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1481719 - 04/22/03 09:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

kykeon writes:

America put Saddam there.

Why is it that someone must point out at least three times a day that America did not "put Saddam there"?

I read that comment every freaking day, and it is 100% wrong. Hussein climbed and clawed and weaseled and murdered his way to the top of the Ba'ath party all on his own. This is well documented, and the details of this process have been posted in this forum before.

On the other hand, no-one has ever posted a single shred of evidence from any credible source "proving" that the US "installed" Hussein, for the simple reason that they didn't. It seems that all the ignorant know how to do is to keep parroting what they hear from each other -- "Uh-huh, like, Hussein was installed by the US in the first place, dude. I like heard that somewhere."

But just for the sake of argument, let's pretend that Hussein was "installed" by the US (even though he wasn't). Since he invaded two of his neighboring countries, tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, ignited by far the biggest ecological disaster of all time by firing 700 oil wells, and generally made a pain in the ass of himself,we can assume he was a bad person who should be neutralized. If the US was responsible for putting him there (which they weren't), doesn't it follow that the US is responsible for removing him? Didn't they just do that? Why are you all still moaning?

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1481746 - 04/22/03 09:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The Geneva Convention as Applies to Prisoners of War

The treatment of America's captives at Guantanamo Bay is a blatant violation of the Geneva Convention:

"Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture ;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

Article 13
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.
Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.
Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

Article 18
All effects and articles of personal use, except arms, horses, military equipment and military documents shall remain in the possession of prisoners of war, likewise their metal helmets and gas masks and like articles issued for personal protection. Effects and articles used for their clothing or feeding shall likewise remain in their possession, even if such effects and articles belong to their regulation military equipment.
At no time should prisoners of war be without identity documents. The Detaining Power shall supply such documents to prisoners of war who possess none.

Article 20
The evacuation of prisoners of war shall always be effected humanely and in conditions similar to those for the forces of the Detaining Power in their changes of station.

Article 21
The Detaining Power may subject prisoners of war to internment. It may impose on them the obligation of not leaving, beyond certain limits, the camp where they are interned, or if the said camp is fenced in, of not going outside its perimeter. Subject to the provisions of the present Convention relative to penal and disciplinary sanctions, prisoners of war may not be held in close confinement except where necessary to safeguard their health and then only during the continuation of the circumstances which make such confinement necessary.

Article 22
Prisoners of war may be interned only in premises located on land and affording every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness. Except in particular cases which are justified by the interest of the prisoners themselves, they shall not be interned in penitentiaries.

Article 25
Prisoners of war shall be quartered under conditions as favourable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area. The said conditions shall make allowance for the habits and customs of the prisoners and shall in no case be prejudicial to their health.

Article 34
Prisoners of war shall enjoy complete latitude in the exercise of their religious duties, including attendance at the service of their faith, on condition that they comply with the disciplinary routine prescribed by the military authorities.
Adequate premises shall be provided where religious services may be held.

Article 70
Immediately upon capture, or not more than one week after arrival at a camp, even if it is a transit camp, likewise in case of sickness or transfer to hospital or another camp, every prisoner of war shall be enabled to write direct to his family, on the one hand, and to the Central Prisoners of War Agency provided for in Article 123, on the other hand, a card similar, if possible, to the model annexed to the present Convention, informing his relatives of his capture, address and state of health. The said cards shall be forwarded as rapidly as possible and may not be delayed in any manner.

Article 71
Prisoners of war shall be allowed to send and receive letters and cards. If the Detaining Power deems it necessary to limit the number of letters and cards sent by each prisoner of war, the said number shall not be less than two letters and four cards monthly, exclusive of the capture cards provided for in Article 70, and conforming as closely as possible to the models annexed to the present Convention. Further limitations may be imposed only if the Protecting Power is satisfied that it would be in the interests of the prisoners of war concerned to do so owing to difficulties of translation caused by the Detaining Power's inability to find sufficient qualified linguists to carry out the necessary censorship.

Article 72
Prisoners of war shall be allowed to receive by post or by any other means individual parcels or collective shipments containing, in particular, foodstuffs, clothing, medical supplies and articles of a religious, educational or recreational character which may meet their needs, including books, devotional articles, scientific equipment, examination papers, musical instruments, sports outfits and materials allowing prisoners of war to pursue their studies or their cultural activities."


The United States justifies its blatant violation of more than a dozen articles of the Geneva Convention by labelling the prisoners not as POWs but as "illegal combatants". This issue is dealt with in articles four and five of the convention:


"Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Article 5

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."


Why the United States would act in such a way is beyond me.




Edited by OOOO (04/22/03 09:42 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1481936 - 04/22/03 11:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I do think the Americans are doing there best to avoid bombing innocent people.

There [sic] best is to avoid dropping bombs. How many innocent Iraqi civilians did Canada kill?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1482028 - 04/22/03 12:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If the US was responsible for putting him there (which they weren't), doesn't it follow that the US is responsible for removing him? Didn't they just do that? Why are you all still moaning?

You really expect them to trust the same bastards who propped up Saddam to pick their next leader? That's like accepting Hitler saying "Give me another chance, I'll treat the jews great this time..." Would you believe him?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Swami]
    #1482114 - 04/22/03 01:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Saddam Hussein's regime has murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. It has started wars with its neighbors costing over a million lives.

I am confident that the end of the Ba'ath regime will result in many lives saved.

It is unfortunate that a few thousand civilians have died in the past month during America's attack on Saddam Hussein.

It is far more unfortunate, however, that for the past decade, the world chose to respond to Saddam Hussein with a passive approach which only impoverished the people of Iraq and subjected them to rule by cruel dictatorship.


Edited by OOOO (04/22/03 01:39 PM)


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1485092 - 04/23/03 03:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Saddam Hussein's regime has murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.




I hear that a lot lately. I'm sure that he killed many and I know that many had to leave Iraq because of the regime, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number that will be accepted by historians in the next decades would be 10 times smaller that those that are being reported by media today.
Similar thing happend with Pol Pot in Cambodia. Many years later it came out that the secret bombings and its consequences killed many more people then the bloody dictator.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1485111 - 04/23/03 03:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

thank you


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1485206 - 04/23/03 04:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You forget, they like to blame the deaths caused by the sanctions on saddam as well :smirk:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Paid]
    #1485246 - 04/23/03 05:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You forget, they like to blame the deaths caused by the sanctions on saddam as well :smirk: 



Rightly so seeing as the sanctions were as a result of actions taken by Saddam.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1485270 - 04/23/03 06:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yay saddam gets sanctioned, his people die while he lives like a king.Good idear. Not....
Any other bright ones?


--------------------



Edited by Paid (04/23/03 06:22 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: zeronio]
    #1485403 - 04/23/03 09:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

zeronio writes:

I hear that a lot lately. I'm sure that he killed many and I know that many had to leave Iraq because of the regime, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number that will be accepted by historians in the next decades would be 10 times smaller that those that are being reported by media today.

The media reports the numbers that the human rights groups deliver. Depending on which human rights group you choose to believe, the number of deaths caused by Hussein only through murder and through imprisonment with a later "disappearance" of the one arrested, the number is 300,000 on the low side to just under a million on the high side.

Add to that the number of Iraqi conscript troops killed in his attempted invasion of Iraq and his invasion of Kuwait, and the total increases by more hundreds of thousands or even a million.

Finally, add any deaths caused by the effects of twelve years of UN sanctions. No matter how often those who attempt to shift the blame from Saddam proclaim otherwise, the inescapable truth is that the sanctions were the direct result of Hussein's actions in 1990, and that they could have been lifted at any time had he merely complied with the terms of the conditional surrender he signed.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1485653 - 04/23/03 12:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

the inescapable truth is that the sanctions were the direct result of Hussein's actions in 1990, and that they could have been lifted at any time had he merely complied with the terms of the conditional surrender he signed.

What exactly didn't he comply with pink? Where are the WMD? Looks like they were all destroyed years ago.



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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1485947 - 04/23/03 01:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

pinksharkmark:
"the inescapable truth is that the sanctions were the direct result of Hussein's actions in 1990, and that they could have been lifted at any time had he merely complied with the terms of the conditional surrender he signed."

Alex123:
"What exactly didn't he comply with pink? Where are the WMD? Looks like they were all destroyed years ago."

Alex, you are attacking a small part of what he said; the smallest part, actually.

Sanctions aside, numerous human rights groups report that Hussein's police state killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. These numbers do not include the count of people killed in his failed attacks on Iran and Kuwait.


Edited by OOOO (04/23/03 02:37 PM)


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1486266 - 04/23/03 03:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

pinky: ok, your words were written as if you are 100% sure the states had nothing to do with Saddam. I am close to 90% so you win :wink:

BUT - you have to accept the fact that the United States of America has been long building the foundations of an Empire. At this moment, the elite leaders behind the clowns are extremely powerfull. The future is in front of us to see what will happen, if the Empire will fall before our eyes close. I doubt.


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1486761 - 04/23/03 06:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

the smallest part, actually

Are you trying to say WMD were a smaller part of why sanctions were imposed than human rights?

numerous human rights groups report that Hussein's police state killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

So Saudi Arabia is next for invasion? If this is all about human rights and not WMD they should be.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1486842 - 04/23/03 06:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Are you trying to say WMD were a smaller part of why sanctions were imposed than human rights?"

No I am not. I didn't mention weapons of mass destruction in my post. Nor did I make any statement about the reasons behind the UN sanctions against Iraq. I don't know where you got that idea from.

Here's what happened Alex:

1. I said that Saddam Hussein's government was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

2. Zeronio disputed this.

3. Pinksharkmark affirmed that Hussein's government did indeed kill a large number
of people. He based this on three points:

a) As described by various human rights groups, Saddam Hussein's government executed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

b) Hussein's government started wars costing over a million lives, including many Iraqi conscripts.

c) Hussein brought sanctions upon his country, impoverishing it and causing even more deaths.

4. You attacked pinksharkmark's argument only by addressing the third and final point, the sanctions.

5. I pointed out that whatever can be said about the sanctions, the larger part of pinksharkmark's statement, the part about Hussein's government murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians and starting catastrophic wars, still stands.

It was really very simple.


"So Saudi Arabia is next for invasion? If this is all about human rights and not WMD they should be."

Did I say that?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1486867 - 04/23/03 06:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You attacked pinksharkmark's argument only by addressing the third and final point, the sanctions

Didn't have time to address every point. Sanctions are pretty important.

Hussein brought sanctions upon his country, impoverishing it and causing even more deaths.

Last time i checked it was other countries imposing sanctions, not Iraq. They imposed sanctions because they alleged Saddam was developing WMD. It now looks like he wasn't and didn't have any. So the sanctions have slaughtered well over a million people including 700,000 children under five. Certainly killed far more civilians than Saddam ever did.

the part about Hussein's government murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians and starting catastrophic wars, still stands.

Well he's killed less civilians than the sanctions, and the US heavily supported his war against Iran. So what exactly is your point?

Did I say that?

Why do you think the sanctions were imposed?


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1486952 - 04/23/03 07:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It also looks like they are holding children at Camp X-Ray. Do you think children should be subjected to those conditions?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1487004 - 04/23/03 07:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex, do you know where Iraq is?

It is a place at one time called Mesopotamia. It is the "fertile crescent" where agricultural society was born. The Tigris and Euphrates rivers supply huge amounts of water which can be used for irrigating farmland. Indeed, Iraq has over 50,000 square kilometers of arable land. Much of this farmland is used to grow staple crops like wheat, barley, and rice. Despite what some may say, half a million children have not starved from UN sanctions.

Since the beginning of the sanctions, the Iraqi government has been blaming almost every single civilian death on the sanctions. In 2001, they claimed that 1.6 million people had died as a result of the sanctions.

The sanctions were imposed by the UN Security Counsel in response to the Iraqi government's non-cooperation with weapons inspections.

"Well he's killed less civilians than the sanctions"

Even if we assume that the sanctions were unjust and that they weren't Hussein's doing, that statement is still untrue. Also, the US did not heavily support his campaign against Iran. A small amount of covert aid and encouragement does not translate to "heavily" supporting.

Hussein's government intentionally murdered several hundred thousand Iraqi civilians, far more than UN sanctions did. (Unless you believe the Iraqi government's claims that virtually all civilian deaths since 1990 were a result of the sanctions).


Edited by OOOO (04/23/03 07:57 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1487374 - 04/23/03 10:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

kykeon writes:

BUT - you have to accept the fact that the United States of America has been long building the foundations of an Empire.

No, I don't accept that "fact" because it is not a fact at all. You have a weird understanding of the word "empire". Rome had an empire. England had an empire. The Ottoman dynasty had an empire.

The US not only doesn't have an empire, they are not building the foundations of one either.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1487927 - 04/24/03 01:47 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The sanctions were imposed by the UN Security Counsel in response to the Iraqi government's non-cooperation with weapons inspections

ALLEGED non-cooperation. It now looks increasingly likely Iraq has no WMD. Seems like they did cooperate after all.

Hussein's government intentionally murdered several hundred thousand Iraqi civilians, far more than UN sanctions did. (Unless you believe the Iraqi government's claims that virtually all civilian deaths since 1990 were a result of the sanctions).

You don't have to believe the Iraqi government. You can believe the UN head of the oil for food programme Dennis Halliday, and his successor who both resigned in disgust at the "genocidal sanctions policy". Halliday said that the sanctions were killing 4-6000 children every month and that figure was "probably on the low side". You're not seriously suggesting Saddam killed more civilians than this are you?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1487960 - 04/24/03 01:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The US not only doesn't have an empire, they are not building the foundations of one either.

Do you think they have an economic empire? And if you can control the economies of countries is there any need to occupy them?


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1488136 - 04/24/03 03:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Let's suppose that the UN sanctions did actually kill as many as some are claiming. Let us also suppose that the sanctions were unjust, and that Saddam Hussein's government had been fully complying.

How is this an excuse for Hussein to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people?

If the UN's sanctions were "genocidal" and had killed 1,600,000 people and were killing thousands more every month, isn't it a good thing that the United States stepped up, and even against the wishes of the UN, ended this policy?

According to your numbers, the United States' war killed about half as many civilians as the UN's sanctions did over the past 5 weeks.


Edited by OOOO (04/24/03 12:12 PM)


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1488456 - 04/24/03 06:41 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

No, I don't accept that "fact" because it is not a fact at all. You have a weird understanding of the word "empire". Rome had an empire. England had an empire. The Ottoman dynasty had an empire.
The US not only doesn't have an empire, they are not building the foundations of one either.



Sounds sad that u r with those few on this planet who doesnt see the Empire. All thinking people on western societies feel EVERY DAY that their goverments belong to the USA and pay lots of money to the Empire. Greece is not free at all; unfortunately most countries are like that. Example: last year the turks invaded a small greek rocky island with no inhabitants in Aegean sea. The United States said to the turks to leave. They did. Our prime minister thanked the President of United States for helping us [although we didnt need any help]. If you think that Greece and Turkey are free to do whatever they want without asking the Empire, let me tell you are wrong.

And last but not least, who gave the USA the right to 'help' all the planet? answer: noone, they just took the part by themselves. thats an Empire allright


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1488748 - 04/24/03 10:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sounds sad that u r with those few on this planet who doesnt see the Empire.



What's sad is that too many think there is.

Quote:

All thinking people



So only people who agree with you are "thinking?" How pathetic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (04/24/03 01:36 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1489097 - 04/24/03 01:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

OOOO writes:

Let's suppose that the UN sanctions did actually kill as many as some are claiming.

No need to make that erroneous supposition. Alex knows full well those numbers are bogus. I have posted half a dozen times here in this forum the actual studies that UN agencies conducted from which those "figures" were supposedly taken. The authors of the studies state explicitly that there is no way to use their data to support the numbers that Halliday and others toss around, and that any such numbers quoted are arbitrary and most definitely not supported by the studies.

Alex tries this same ploy every few months in the hopes that we will have forgotten the last six times he was proven wrong. Feel free to ignore it.

pinky



--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (04/24/03 01:13 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1489638 - 04/24/03 03:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You keep attempting to pull this stroke pink, blithly ignoring that the head of the UN oil for food programme - a man you would expect to have a great deal of knowledge on the situation in Iraq has stated many times that 4-6000 kids a month is "probably on the low side".

Do you think he just made this up to annoy right-wingers like yourself?


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1489654 - 04/24/03 03:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: OOOO]
    #1489686 - 04/24/03 03:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The US stopped the sanctions against the wishes of the UN? Are you serious? The US and the UK have been the two countries most determind at all costs to keep the sanctions in place.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1490075 - 04/24/03 05:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

You keep attempting to pull this stroke pink...

Don't make me bump one of the six threads so far in which your contention has been thoroughly demolished, Alex. For some reason every few months you pull it out of the trash and dust it off again and hope everyone has forgotten the last six times you were publicly humiliated.

...blithly ignoring that the head of the UN oil for food programme - a man you would expect to have a great deal of knowledge on the situation in Iraq has stated many times that 4-6000 kids a month is "probably on the low side".

And as the last six times I posted the same information prove, his numbers are imaginary. Once again you demonstrate your almost servile submission to proclamations (however demonstrably false they are proven to be) of whomever you deem to be an "expert".

Do you think he just made this up to annoy right-wingers like yourself?

As you well know, I am not a right winger. And as we have discussed several times in the past, I have no idea why he has chosen to deliberately misrepresent the data of the real experts who produced the reports. His motivations for doing so are irrelevant to me. What is relevant is the information contained in the studies themselves, not the misrepresentations of some ex office jockey with a chip on his shoulder.

I suggest you drop this and move on. I am fully prepared to bump the thread.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1490146 - 04/24/03 05:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry didn't bother to read all the pages...what did i miss?

Those pictures of the pows look pretty decent to me.....thats a little better than how i would treat MY prisoner!

But theyre american! The plane must be some torture device deliberately planned to hurt iraqis. See whoever said thier arms would be ripped off from pressure was right! Expect it'll take an hour or two for the arms to detach, but when the plane lands they are fed into the US turkey gissle machine and turned into...more oil!!...thats right!...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1490154 - 04/24/03 05:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have no idea why he has chosen to deliberately misrepresent the data of the real experts who produced the reports.

Lets take a wild guess. He's studied all the available evidence and come to the conclusion that 4-6000 kids on the low side are dying every month. You really think doing a 2 minute google search means you know more about Iraq than the head of the Iraq oil for food program?

I am fully prepared to bump the thread.

I think you'd better.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1490161 - 04/24/03 05:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't believe me?!  the plans are all drawn up....and one is already working! :shocked:
http://www.discover.com/may_03/featoil.html



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1490467 - 04/24/03 07:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Fine, Alex. The thread has been bumped. The title is "Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!"

The discussion about Halliday's imaginary numbers starts on the 8th page of the thread if you are displaying 20 posts per page. The quotes from the UNICEF studies appear in my post on the 10th page if you are displaying 20 posts per page.

Here is the link --
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum14&Number=
1311793&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1491532 - 04/25/03 01:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So you genuinely believe that from a 2 minute google search you have a better picture of what is happening in Iraq than the UN head of the oil for food programme? And his successor who resigned for exactly the same reason? They both just woke up one morning and decided "I know, I'll throw away the job i've had for 30 years for no reason and make up some story that 4-6000 kids are dying every month for the fun of it".

Sorry pink, I don't buy it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1491650 - 04/25/03 02:11 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

So you genuinely believe that from a 2 minute google search you have a better picture of what is happening in Iraq than the UN head of the oil for food programme?

It originally took around two minutes to find the actual report that Halliday has persistently misrepresented, yes. It took longer to read it, and it longer still to read associated commentary at other websites re the Saddam apologists' insistence on ignoring what the actual report said. I then spent a bit more time reading what UNICEF, OXFAM, and other relief agencies have to say about how the increasing rate of infant mortality in developing countries matches closely the increasing rate of the substitution of powdered milk formula for breast milk.

You have raised all these tired and flabby counters in every one of the previous six threads in which I have posted the relevant portions of the actual reports. It basically amounts to exactly the same faulty premise --

Dennis Halliday is deliberately misrepresenting the reports not because he has a personal agenda, but because he somehow knows more about infant mortality in Iraq than the people who compiled the reports.

You have never made a single comment about the actual reports themselves, because you know full well they refute everything you are trying to put over on us, and you realize that the authors of the reports have impeccable credentials and their research is unimpeachable. So what do you do instead? You completely ignore the actual work and instead set up Halliday as some kind of omniscient god. You ignore what the reports say, and instead pretend that what Halliday claims they say (even though anyone with basic reading skills can see his claims are bogus) somehow has more validity.

You really are a total slave to "authority figures", aren't you? Are you not capable of thinking for yourself? Are you not capable of comprehending simple and unequivocal declarative sentences from those who actually conducted the studies which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Halliday is deliberately misrepresenting their work?

You are rehashing the same losing points that were discredited in the thread I bumped. Unless you have something new to say -- something other than "Dennis says it is so, therefore it must be so," I will merely direct you to my post on the tenth page of the bumped post. Repetition bores me.

pinky



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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1492147 - 04/25/03 08:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

okee.

whats been accepted as OBVIOUS in my society is definately NOT whats been accepted as OBVIOUS in your society. There is no point of arguing more. You and all people who dont see the Empire, have their 'proofs' of thinking so. Me and all those who do see the Empire, have our 'proofs' of thinking so.

Time will tell.

I hope I am wrong and USA wants everyone to be free and happy in this wicked planet.


--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


Edited by kykeon (04/25/03 08:14 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1492624 - 04/25/03 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You completely ignore the actual work and instead set up Halliday as some kind of omniscient god.

No, I just see him as the head of the UN oil for food programme. I think he has a good idea what figures are accurate and which are bogus. Certainly more of an idea than you.

You really are a total slave to "authority figures", aren't you?

That's funny coming from a rabid right-winger.

which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Halliday is deliberately misrepresenting their work?

The UN humanitarian aid co-ordinator Hans Von Sponeck also resigned in disgust at the genocidal sanctions. One UN expert resinging for no reason and making up lies is in the wildest reaches of fantasy itself, but TWO resigning for the same reason? Sorry pink. I don't buy it. I know you want to believe desperately that a 2 minute google search gives you more information than the humanitarian aid co-ordinator for Iraq but I assure you, it doesn't.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1492667 - 04/25/03 12:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That's funny coming from a rabid right-winger.



A 'rabid right winger' is someone who uses reason and believes in individual liberty? An interesting definition.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1492677 - 04/25/03 12:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have anything to say on-topic?


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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493049 - 04/25/03 02:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

No, I just see him as the head of the UN oil for food programme. I think he has a good idea what figures are accurate and which are bogus. Certainly more of an idea than you.

The UN humanitarian aid co-ordinator Hans Von Sponeck also resigned in disgust at the genocidal sanctions. One UN expert resinging for no reason and making up lies is in the wildest reaches of fantasy itself, but TWO resigning for the same reason? Sorry pink. I don't buy it.


I note that you still don't dare address what the reports actually say. Instead you use your standard Alex123 "appeal to authority" --

"Well, clearly there is no way to refute the evidence, therefore I will pretend that career bureaucrats know more about statistics and epidemiology than the humanitarian aid workers in the field who gathered, analyzed, and presented the evidence. The fact that what the bureaucrats say directly contradicts the studies means nothing -- after all, bureaucrats are never wrong."

If you are not prepared to address what the studies themselves say, why are you still bothering to respond?

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493074 - 04/25/03 02:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

That's funny coming from a rabid right-winger.

As you are well aware, I am neither rabid nor a right-winger.

I realize that you are terrified to even read, let alone address, the actual studies I have provided here, but let me ease your fears for you --

As a rule, humanitarian aid workers are not right-wing. It is pretty unlikely that the UNICEF crew who ran the studies and produced the reports have subscriptions to National Review Magazine or have their families tape Fox News every night and send it to them in Care packages. The folks who produced the report are your kind of people, Alex. Why do you fear what they have to say?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1493284 - 04/25/03 03:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Instead you use your standard Alex123 "appeal to authority"

No appeal to authority pink. I just don't believe your right-wing conspiracy plot that all these UN experts resigning in protest at the genocidal sanctions policy are all doing it just to spite you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (04/25/03 03:16 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1493293 - 04/25/03 03:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The folks who produced the report are your kind of people, Alex

So you are convinced that two highly placed UN experts have read reports on Iraq and for no reason whatsoever, resigned highly paid jobs and stated the sanctions policy is genocidal. Do you really think that is likely outside of a right-wing conspiracy movie?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493400 - 04/25/03 03:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The more you babble, the more you prove my point. You don't dare address what the reports say, because they show unequivocally that your heroes have deliberately misrepresented the reports. You will never deal with what the reports say, so why continue?

I ask again -- if you are not going to address the facts, but instead choose to deal in personalities, why do you bother responding? Your bureaucrats made up imaginary numbers. Deal with it.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1493423 - 04/25/03 03:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You don't dare address what the reports say

What reports are you babbling about? The ones you found during a 2 minute google search?

Your bureaucrats made up imaginary numbers.

So the UN head of the oil for food programme and the former UN assistant secretary general and Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq just made it all up. That's your argument is it?

Look out the window pink, is there a pig flying?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493431 - 04/25/03 03:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Care to address THE FACTS as Pinky suggests?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1493444 - 04/25/03 03:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Not you again  :smirk:

I am not an expert on the situation in Iraq. Neither is pink, despite his two minute google searches. The man running the oil for food programme and the humanitarian coordinator in Iraq know infinitely more than any 2 minute google search can provide. 


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493446 - 04/25/03 03:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

He has responded in detail to your "points" in such detail that it's amazing. What's nauseating is your ability to not understand what he has said.

I don't think your as obtuse as you make yourself seem so I can only assume you're baiting him.

And put the "2 minute google search" sound-bite in the same closet you hid "spiked steering wheel, 50,000 feet, and 75% of the globe" into.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (04/25/03 03:48 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493451 - 04/25/03 03:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

He has responded in detail to your "points" in such detail that it's amazing

Not "my" points. These are what the UN experts have stated time and time again.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493455 - 04/25/03 03:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I figured you'd dodge facts again. This is typical.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1493461 - 04/25/03 03:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I figured you'd dodge facts again. This is typical.



And entertaining!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493472 - 04/25/03 03:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

And entertaining!



It is only entertaining the first 100 times he does it. After that it gets old fast.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1493473 - 04/25/03 03:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And i figured you wouldn't make a single point on topic and instead concentrate on your grudge against me.

Can you contribute a single on-topic point?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493483 - 04/25/03 03:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And entertaining!

Can either of you contribute a single on-topic point? You don't like me. Fine.

Now do you think you could get over it and contribute something on topic?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493513 - 04/25/03 04:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

What reports are you babbling about? The ones you found during a 2 minute google search?

The reports your bureaucrats are deliberately misrepresenting.

The reports your bureaucrats claim support their position when in fact they do exactly the reverse.

The reports your bureaucrats refer to as the source for their imaginary numbers, hoping that the vast majority of their audience will act exactly as you do, and never bother to read the reports.

The reports that took two minutes to find on the UN website, but took many person-years of scrupulous effort to compile.

The reports that prove your position is flimsier than a harem girl's pants.

The reports that you haven't either the moral courage or the intellectual honesty to even read, let alone address.

The reports that you squeeze your eyes shut to avoid seeing while chanting hysterically "Not true! Not true! Not true!"

When you actually decide to deal with facts rather than fantasies of career bureaucrats, we can resume. Every single reader of this thread has noticed that you are completely terrified of addressing the reports which state the facts. My advice to you is to quit while you're ahead. We all know you'll never address the reports, because we have all observed your terror of facts for about a year now.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: z@z.com]
    #1493736 - 04/25/03 05:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:

And entertaining!



It is only entertaining the first 100 times he does it. After that it gets old fast.



No, it's still entertaining. Just recognize him for what he is and the laughs will never stop.

If he manages to annoy you.... he wins.

Don't let him.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493754 - 04/25/03 05:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

...trying.....trying!!!......so hard.....BAH! i give up...im annoyed! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1494977 - 04/26/03 02:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The reports your bureaucrats are deliberately misrepresenting.

Tell me something. If you don't believe "UN bureaucrats" when they tell you the sanctions are genocidal why do you believe them when they tell you Saddam wasn't obeying UN resolutions? You never tire of excusing the attack on Iraq by saying "The UN has told us..", "The UN insists..."

The reports your bureaucrats claim support their position when in fact they do exactly the reverse

Von Sponeck stated he had information from a "wide variety of fronts" about the genocidal nature of the sanctions. You quite positive you know more than the humanitarian aid coordinator for Iraq from a google search?

My advice to you is to quit while you're ahead. We all know you'll never address the reports, because we have all observed your terror of facts for about a year now

Do you often do this pink? Do a 2 minute google search and consider yourself more knowledgeable than experts who have worked in the field for 30 years? My advice is to listen to the experts on the ground and open your mind.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1495677 - 04/26/03 01:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And we all notice, once again, that Alex is incapable of summoning the sand to address the facts under discussion. My prediction holds true -- he will no more address the facts contained in the UNICEF studies than he will ever answer ny list of questions in the thread "Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!"

My advice is to listen to the experts on the ground and open your mind.

I have done so. You have instead chosen to be brainwashed by bureaucrats.

pinky




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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1497271 - 04/27/03 03:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Around 4,500 children under the age of five are dying here every month from hunger and disease,"

- Philippe Heffinck, UNICEF Representative for Iraq.

Looks like even the UNICEF people writing the reports themselves are lying just to spite you pink...


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1497485 - 04/27/03 10:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex, as you are well aware, that comment was from an article published October 4, 1996, before the funds from the Oil for Food program had been released to Iraq, and before the UNICEF infant mortality survey studies to which I refer had been conducted. Please provide a source showing that Philippe Heffinck was involved in either conducting the studies or writing the reports. The article you quoted from lists his position as merely "UNICEF representative". For all we know he was no longer even employed by UNICEF in 1999.

Here, for the seventh time, is what the authors of the reports have to say. I suggest you attempt to reconcile Halliday's arbitrarily-selected numbers with the words of those who did the studies --

As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility --

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."


UNICEF also said in the same report:

"A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq. Given the contribution of bottle-feeding to higher levels of malnutrition and child mortality, UNICEF is urging the Government to remove breastmilk substitutes from the rations and replace them with additional food for pregnant and lactating women. UNICEF has also called on the Government to promote exclusive breastfeeding of infants as a national policy."

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (04/27/03 10:24 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1497589 - 04/27/03 11:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions

Of course not. How can anyone give absolute figures in such a situation? No-one can give absolute figures of how many jews were killed by the Nazi's. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. All we know is the best estimate - 4-7000 children under 5 every month.

A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq

So what? Do you seriously believe if we keep sanctions in place but simply stop bottle-feeding everything will be ok?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1497593 - 04/27/03 11:52 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Who, in your view, is primarily responsible for the deaths of those 500,000 children under five?

All the members of the Permanent Security Council, when they passed 1284, reconfirmed that economic sanctions had to be sustained, knowing the consequences. That constitutes ?intent to kill?, because we know that sanctions are killing several thousand per month. Now, of the five permanent members, three abstained; but an abstention is no better than a vote for, in a sense. Britain and America of course voted for this continuation. The rest of them don?t count because they?re lackeys, or they?re paid off. The only country that stood up was Malaysia, and they also abstained. But you know, by abstaining instead of using your veto, when you are a permanent member you're guilty because you?re continuing something that has this deadly impact. However, I would normally point the finger at London and Washington, because they are the most active in sustaining sanctions: they are the ones who will not compromise. All the other members would back down if London and Washington would change their position. I think that?s quite clear. But unfortunately Blair and Clinton have an almost personal investment in demonising Saddam Hussein. That?s very hard to get out of, they have my sympathy, but they created their own problem. Once you?ve demonised somebody, it?s awfully difficult to turn around and say, ?Well actually he?s not such a bad guy, he likes kids?. Under the Baath Party regime, they ran a social welfare system in Iraq that was so intense it was almost claustrophobic, and they made damn sure that the average Iraqi was well taken care of, and they did it deliberately to divert them from any political activity and to maintain stability and allow them (Baath Party) to run the country. [US Secretary of State] Madeleine Albright has also fallen into the demonisation hole: her whole career is linked to maintaining this policy, although she didn?t start it.? - Dennis Halliday Former Assistant Secretary-General of The United Nations

http://www.zmag.org/edwinthalliday.htm


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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1498154 - 04/27/03 05:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

Of course not. How can anyone give absolute figures in such a situation?

Then why does Halliday claim he can? You must have missed this section:

...any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

"Any" means exactly that, Alex. It even applies to a range of figures, such as 4,000 - 7,000. The authors of the report are adamant that there is no way to use their data to support any figure -- whether from Dennis Halliday or Mickey Mouse.

Do you seriously believe if we keep sanctions in place but simply stop bottle-feeding everything will be ok?

As you are aware, Bush has called for the sanctions to be lifted immediately. Hopefully, for once the UN will actually do the right thing.

However, unlike you, I did spend some time looking further into this breast-feeding business, and all the humanitarian relief agencies are of the same voice on this point -- there is an undeniable statistical correlation between increased infant mortality and increased use of infant formula in lieu of breast-feeding in the countries they are monitoring. This is true not just in Iraq, but in all countries the agencies have investigated. This indicates that at least part of the rise in infant mortality in Iraq is due to the sharp increase in the use of infant formula there in the period covered by the reports.

Can all infant deaths in Iraq be attributed to this factor? Nope. But neither can all infant deaths be attributed to the effects of the sanctions.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (04/27/03 05:09 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1498187 - 04/27/03 05:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Then why does Halliday claim he can?

He doesn't give an "absolute" figure. He gives an estimate.

Any" means exactly that, Alex.

No it doesn't. Reading comprehension pink, reading comprehension. They are referring to any "absolute" figure. As i've already pointed out no-one can give an absolute figure for the number killed in the holocaust, this does not mean estimates cannot be given.

As you are aware, Bush has called for the sanctions to be lifted immediately

Are we supposed to be impressed? Now US oil corporations wish to sell oil? He is hardly likely to insist sanctions be kept in place is he?  :confused:

However, unlike you, I did spend some time looking further into this breast-feeding business

I'm way ahead of you pink. I've known about it for years. You should read up on Nestle policy in Africa.

Can all infant deaths in Iraq be attributed to this factor? Nope. But neither can all infant deaths be attributed to the effects of the sanctions.

What sort of argument is this? I have no doubt some of the childrens death can be attributed to natural causes too. So what? Are you seriously comparing the numbers killed by bottled milk to those killed by not allowing Iraq to import Chlorine to provide fresh water, basic childrens medicines and food? 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1498478 - 04/27/03 07:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You demonstrate yet again your incapacity to understand your mother tongue. The authors of the report went to considerable effort to state in the clearest possible terms that

"Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

Observe the precision of their language -- this was not a casual statement. Words such as "accurately" and "specifically" have well-defined and commonly accepted meanings. When they used the phrase "any such figure", they did so deliberately. They pointed out that such figures would have to be "derived", not merely "copied" or "quoted", because they themselves quote no such figures. And finally, they use the word "questionable". Those who composed that statement were doing everything they could think of to get their point across.

It is hard to imagine a more thorough, complete, and unambiguous warning against misrepresentation of their work, especially when that sentence is coupled with the preceding one, "These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions." Yet that is precisely what Halliday claims they were intended to do.

Your feeble attempt at hair-splitting that his giving a range of 4,000 to 6,000 a month somehow exempts him from the "absolute" restriction deliberately ignores the "any such figure" part of the author's statement. Halliday says 4,000 - 6,000 a month, and points to the studies as a source. Someone else says 40 to 60 a month, and points to the studies as a source. The authors say -- "Both of you stop using our studies as an alleged source. They cannot be used to support any such figures."

Face it Alex. There is no way that anyone will ever be able to show that half a million children died as a result of the sanctions. I have no objection to someone claiming that children died during the time that sanctions were imposed who might otherwise have lived had sanctions not been in place. That is certainly a reasonable assumption to make. My objection is to someone pulling a figure out of midair as a factual figure, then attempting to buttress this arbitrary number by referring to studies whose authors state in unequivocal terms that they want no part of such grandstanding, and that their work is being misused by such tactics.

Are you seriously comparing the numbers killed by bottled milk to those killed by not allowing Iraq to import Chlorine to provide fresh water, basic childrens medicines and food?

Well, Alex, as has been widely reported recently, it turns out that thousands of tons of food and supplies had been hoarded in warehouses controlled by Hussein's thugs, just as I had suggested to you the very first time I posted these reports. You of course poo-poohed even the possibility that this might be the case.

As for water, how is it that Hussein could build a few dozen palaces with no difficulty, yet couldn't replace a few dozen miles at most of water pipes? Chlorine of course is the simplest of all, since chlorine is readily produced by passing an electrical current through salt water. Hell, even Haiti produces its own chlorine, for pete's sake. Yet multiple reports of factories in Iraq capable of producing far more complex chemicals are all over the news.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1499507 - 04/28/03 01:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

When did you leave school? Read the quote again, including the first line that you accidentally missed off

These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable

Are you seriously suggesting they are not talking about absolute figures here?

Yet that is precisely what Halliday claims they were intended to do

Once again, it isn't. They are talking about absolute figures. No-one can give absolute figures of those who died in the holocaust either. That doesn't mean 6 million isn't a good enough estimate.

There is no way that anyone will ever be able to show that half a million children died as a result of the sanctions

Thankfully UNICEF, WHO and a host of UN experts have already proved it. And btw, it's closer to 700,000. Remember the 4-6000 every month was "on the low side".

Well, Alex, as has been widely reported recently, it turns out that thousands of tons of food and supplies had been hoarded in warehouses controlled by Hussein's thugs

Source please?

btw, are they withholding this much?

As of last July, the United States, backed by the Blair government, was wilfully blocking humanitarian supplies worth $5.4bn, everything from vaccines and plasma bags to simple painkillers, all of which Iraq had paid for and the Security Council had approved.

http://pilger.carlton.com/print/132938

You of course poo-poohed even the possibility that this might be the case.

No, Scott Ritter did. You've got an annoying habit of pretending it's "me" rather than UN experts.

Chlorine of course is the simplest of all, since chlorine is readily produced by passing an electrical current through salt water

This is insanity. Are you seriously suggesting Saddam should attempt to produce chlorine, a WMD? What do you think Bush would have done if he had done so?

Yet multiple reports of factories in Iraq capable of producing far more complex chemicals are all over the news.

Reports of it are, actual chemicals are a bit short on the ground. Try and distuingish blatant propaganda from the truth.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1499723 - 04/28/03 03:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

Read the quote again, including the first line that you accidentally missed off

Re-read my post, Alex. I didn't miss it off, accidently or otherwise. It's there.

Are you seriously suggesting they are not talking about absolute figures here?

Read the entire quote. Think about it. Apply your knowledge of your own mother tongue.

They are talking about absolute figures. No-one can give absolute figures of those who died in the holocaust either. That doesn't mean 6 million isn't a good enough estimate.

Completely irrelevant, and you know it is. I fail to see why you think after all this time you can get away with this kind of lame non sequitur. How stupid do you think we are?

The two figures aren't even remotely comparable. The Nazis kept scrupulous records of this kind of thing, even going so far as to tattoo numbers on their victims. And in the case of the holocaust, no one had to guess whether those who were herded onto the boxcars to Auschwitz never to be seen again were dying from infant formula vs breastmilk or from routine natural causes -- they were being made into lampshades and soap, their hair used to stuff pillows, their gold fillings used to replenish the coffers of the reich, and their ashes used to darken the landscape near the ovens.

Thankfully UNICEF, WHO and a host of UN experts have already proved it.

They have done no such thing, as the authors of the ONLY reports all the organizations rely on have stated unequivocally.

And btw, it's closer to 700,000. Remember the 4-6000 every month was "on the low side".

Incorrect. It is closer to 700. Remember the 4-6000 every month is completely unsupported by any factual data at all, therefore the number of 700 is as good as any.

Source please?

I'm not going to spoonfeed you. It's common knowledge. It was all over the news, especially the English news, since it was English troops who found the first such warehouse in Basra. Do you not even remember as far back as three weeks ago? Get some more sleep. Start eating right.

No, Scott Ritter did.

Ah, yes. The Scott Ridder who on the day of his resignation held a press conference in which he declared that Hussein had substantial biochem capacity, and could rebuild all the stocks he had destroyed in a matter of months. The Scott Ritter who testified under oath to the US senate the exact same thing. The Scott Ritter who claims he left because he was getting no backup from the UN to perform proper inspections. The Scott Ritter who, after receiving $400,000 from a source linked to Baghdad, suddenly reversed his position and said virtually all of Hussein's biochem weaponry had been destroyed (how he could know this since he was no longer in Iraq at the time remains unanswered) and has denied to this day that he ever claimed otherwise, despite the record of his Senate hearings and the several articles written from his press conference.

Why am I not surprised he might make claims that contradict what UNICEF had to say about it?

This is insanity. Are you seriously suggesting Saddam should attempt to produce chlorine, a WMD? What do you think Bush would have done if he had done so?

Guess what, Alex? There are all kinds of chemical plants left standing in Iraq, all of them easily capable of producing chlorine. And guess what, Alex? They weren't bombed in the 12 years between 1991 and 2003. They weren't even bombed in the recent war. We don't have to guess what Bush would have done about it, we know what he did about it -- nothing.

Reports of it are, actual chemicals are a bit short on the ground.

Not through any lack of capacity to produce them. Seems a lot of things are a bit short on the ground in Iraq. Except of course dozens of marble palaces with gold faucets, bedrooms loaded with crates containing thousands of AK 47s, and warehouses stuffed with relief supplies that never made it to those who needed it.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1500438 - 04/28/03 12:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't miss it off, accidently or otherwise

Oh yes you did.

Think about it.

So you are still pushing the idea that no figure whatsoever can be applied? Where do you think the dozens and dozens of UN experts came up with the 4-7000 figure? Incidentally the author of a new report - who has spent 3 years studying the the devastating effect of sanctions - states:

JOY GORDON: The primary cause of child mortality in Iraq is from water borne diseases; cholera, typhoid and dysentry.

UNICEF says that it is for this reason that they conclude that there is about half a million children under five in Iraq are dead from the sanctions who would not have been and that's primarily water borne diseases.


Professor Joy Gordon - http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/s779232.htm

Incorrect. It is closer to 700

Only in your mind.

There are all kinds of chemical plants left standing in Iraq, all of them easily capable of producing chlorine

Not according the UN weapons inspectors.

And guess what, Alex? They weren't bombed in the 12 years between 1991 and 2003.

Perhaps because they WERN'T PRODUCING CHLORINE?

The US had banned the import of chlorine - the idea of Iraq producing it itself is simply ludicrous.

Not through any lack of capacity to produce them.

You keep saying this, the UN experts on the ground say Iraqs chemical weapon making facilities had been destroyed by 1998 - completly destroyed. I've posted the quote by RItter several times. Where are you getting your information?


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1500450 - 04/28/03 12:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I've posted the quote by RItter several times.

Ritter is the last person who I would trust for good information. Why is it that you never quote any of the other weapons inspectors Alex?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: z@z.com]
    #1500457 - 04/28/03 12:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why is it that you never quote any of the other weapons inspectors Alex?

I've never heard you quote them either. Maybe you should do so instead of posting these weak one-line flames you never tire of making?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1500460 - 04/28/03 01:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You haven't ever heard me quote them because I don't think they were ever allowed to see anything that the Iraqi government did not want them to see. Also I would hardly call that a flame.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (04/28/03 01:01 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1500592 - 04/28/03 02:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

Oh yes you did.

Re-read the post. It's right in front of your eyes.

Where do you think the dozens and dozens of UN experts came up with the 4-7000 figure?

What dozens and dozens are you talking about? To you, anyone who agrees with you automatically assumes the sacred status of "expert", anyone who doesn't is a buffoon. The only experts in this case are those who did the studies. We all know what they have to say, and guess what? It refutes all the imaginary numbers.

JOY GORDON: The primary cause of child mortality in Iraq is from water borne diseases; cholera, typhoid and dysentry.

I live in a third world country, and have done for the last fifteen years. My country is right next door to what is arguably the most "third-world" country in the western hemisphere. You know how we prevent water-borne diseases in these two countries? We put a tablespoon of bleach in the drinking water jug, shake it, and let it sit for a few minutes. That's it, that's all. It doesn't do anything for heavy metal contamination or other chemical pollution, but it kills all pathogens such as cholera, typhoid, etc. All of them. Every one. This is scientific fact, Alex, and easily checkable. Every humanitarian aid worker in the world knows this -- it is no big secret, it is common knowledge.

If Hussein had decided that he would rather salt away Iraq's wealth in offshore accounts, palaces, weaponry, etc. than convert a few of his chemical plants to chlorine production, then it's a damn good thing he's gone. To pretend that Hussein couldn't have produced chlorine is to exhibit gross stupidity. The production of chlorine is one of the simplest chemical processes there is. Even Haitians have no difficulty doing it. From the reports coming out of Iraq, it is apparent he had no difficulty producing much more complex chemicals, such as pesticides.

Only in your mind.

Okay, let's give it a "range", like Halliday. Make it 600 - 800.

The US had banned the import of chlorine - the idea of Iraq producing it itself is simply ludicrous.

Why? Why is it that every other country in the world has no difficulty producing chlorine?

You keep saying this, the UN experts on the ground say Iraqs chemical weapon making facilities had been destroyed by 1998 - completly destroyed. I've posted the quote by RItter several times. Where are you getting your information?

From the news, Alex. Every time another chemical factory is discovered by the troops, the media yammers, "We may have found a factory where biochems were produced. Preliminary tests are contradictory". A few days later, they say, "Whoops -- not biochem weaponry, just insecticides or dual-use chemicals." Face facts, Alex, there is no shortage of chemical manufacturing equipment in Iraq.

pinky


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1507001 - 04/30/03 09:53 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Yesterday i saw on newz that USA soldiers killed 13 iraqi people who were gathered to shout against the usa oppression, outside a school that is not working because USA soldiers are sleeping in there.

Three of the dead iraqi were children, less than 10 years old.

I feel so fuckin sad that I am human.

And as RATM used to sing: "Freedom... yeah, right"


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1507392 - 04/30/03 01:19 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

what a fuckin disgrace..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Strumpling]
    #1507418 - 04/30/03 01:27 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

We got a whole folder on the "accidental killings". Come play....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Strumpling]
    #1514262 - 05/02/03 10:20 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

what a fuckin disgrace..



i agree... imho, there is absolutely NO excuse of killing someone, no matter how tough, unfair or asshole is his dictator...


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1514271 - 05/02/03 10:24 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

"imho, there is absolutely NO excuse of killing someone, no matter how tough, unfair or asshole is his dictator... "

What if its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed? Is that still wrong?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1514323 - 05/02/03 11:00 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

What if its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed? Is that still wrong?

What is this philosophy of reducing life to meaningless numbers and statistics?

If you want to talk statistics there are millions of people dying in Africa - why didn't we spent the money we spent on Iraq saving them? We could have saved hundreds of thousands more lives than we "saved" toppling Saddam. If saving lives is your goal there are a lot better ways of doing it than bombing Iraq.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1514329 - 05/02/03 11:02 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Hey. Dont yell at me. I'm all for feeding the hungry. I was merely responding to what was said. Saying there is NO excuse for taking a human life is an undefendable position, and I'm curious to see what his logic is.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1514338 - 05/02/03 11:07 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I don't think he said that. He said killing innocent people for what their dictator does is indefensible.

Which is fair enough.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1514345 - 05/02/03 11:11 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

If thats what he meant, I'll buy it. But thats now I read it...And I dont think that was the meaning implied...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1518975 - 05/04/03 07:06 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

What if What if its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed? Is that still wrong?
?



Are you the God? Is Mr. Da Presidente the God? Am I the God? Nope.
So we cant kill 3 children under 10 y.o. because YOU, DA PRESIDENTE or ME think that "its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed".

imho, when humans decide in pseudo-questions like the above mentioned,
is mainly because such decision proves power, leadership, braveness and other
human shit. and thats why those are pseudo-questions. because the humans
who like to prove themselves as powerful brave leaders, invent the question.

unfortunately its all inside our heads. Nature failed in our creation. but the
next generation of humans would be proabably better



--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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OfflineJameZTheNewbie
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1519007 - 05/04/03 08:08 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

i think the only solution for everyone who agrees with the wars on iraq and the poeples who disapree is for them to fight till one side is dead..;)...o yea fuck bush


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1519164 - 05/04/03 11:56 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

kykeon writes:

...imho, there is absolutely NO excuse of killing someone, no matter how tough, unfair or asshole is his dictator...

There were far more non-combatants killed in the Allied invasion of Hitler's Europe than there were in the invasion of Iraq. If we agree with your statement, then there was "absolutely NO excuse" for liberating Europe six decades ago.

pinky


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1523585 - 05/06/03 02:12 AM (19 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

If we agree with your statement, then there was "absolutely NO excuse" for liberating Europe six decades ago.



ok then. that was a WORLD war and that makes a fuckin difference. UN didnt want the war on iraq, the US should comply with that. but then again, US left Perl Harbor to happen, so as to enter the WORLD war and guess what! since then, it started building the empire. for many years against the communist threat; nowadays against the muslim threat.

there is always a threat against america!!

who is gonna protect us against the protectors?


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