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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493400 - 04/25/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The more you babble, the more you prove my point. You don't dare address what the reports say, because they show unequivocally that your heroes have deliberately misrepresented the reports. You will never deal with what the reports say, so why continue?

I ask again -- if you are not going to address the facts, but instead choose to deal in personalities, why do you bother responding? Your bureaucrats made up imaginary numbers. Deal with it.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1493423 - 04/25/03 03:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You don't dare address what the reports say

What reports are you babbling about? The ones you found during a 2 minute google search?

Your bureaucrats made up imaginary numbers.

So the UN head of the oil for food programme and the former UN assistant secretary general and Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq just made it all up. That's your argument is it?

Look out the window pink, is there a pig flying?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493431 - 04/25/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Care to address THE FACTS as Pinky suggests?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1493444 - 04/25/03 03:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Not you again  :smirk:

I am not an expert on the situation in Iraq. Neither is pink, despite his two minute google searches. The man running the oil for food programme and the humanitarian coordinator in Iraq know infinitely more than any 2 minute google search can provide. 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493446 - 04/25/03 03:48 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

He has responded in detail to your "points" in such detail that it's amazing. What's nauseating is your ability to not understand what he has said.

I don't think your as obtuse as you make yourself seem so I can only assume you're baiting him.

And put the "2 minute google search" sound-bite in the same closet you hid "spiked steering wheel, 50,000 feet, and 75% of the globe" into.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (04/25/03 03:48 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493451 - 04/25/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

He has responded in detail to your "points" in such detail that it's amazing

Not "my" points. These are what the UN experts have stated time and time again.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493455 - 04/25/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I figured you'd dodge facts again. This is typical.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1493461 - 04/25/03 03:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I figured you'd dodge facts again. This is typical.



And entertaining!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493472 - 04/25/03 03:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And entertaining!



It is only entertaining the first 100 times he does it. After that it gets old fast.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Evolving]
    #1493473 - 04/25/03 03:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

And i figured you wouldn't make a single point on topic and instead concentrate on your grudge against me.

Can you contribute a single on-topic point?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493483 - 04/25/03 03:55 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

And entertaining!

Can either of you contribute a single on-topic point? You don't like me. Fine.

Now do you think you could get over it and contribute something on topic?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1493513 - 04/25/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

What reports are you babbling about? The ones you found during a 2 minute google search?

The reports your bureaucrats are deliberately misrepresenting.

The reports your bureaucrats claim support their position when in fact they do exactly the reverse.

The reports your bureaucrats refer to as the source for their imaginary numbers, hoping that the vast majority of their audience will act exactly as you do, and never bother to read the reports.

The reports that took two minutes to find on the UN website, but took many person-years of scrupulous effort to compile.

The reports that prove your position is flimsier than a harem girl's pants.

The reports that you haven't either the moral courage or the intellectual honesty to even read, let alone address.

The reports that you squeeze your eyes shut to avoid seeing while chanting hysterically "Not true! Not true! Not true!"

When you actually decide to deal with facts rather than fantasies of career bureaucrats, we can resume. Every single reader of this thread has noticed that you are completely terrified of addressing the reports which state the facts. My advice to you is to quit while you're ahead. We all know you'll never address the reports, because we have all observed your terror of facts for about a year now.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: z@z.com]
    #1493736 - 04/25/03 05:25 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

And entertaining!



It is only entertaining the first 100 times he does it. After that it gets old fast.



No, it's still entertaining. Just recognize him for what he is and the laughs will never stop.

If he manages to annoy you.... he wins.

Don't let him.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493754 - 04/25/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

...trying.....trying!!!......so hard.....BAH! i give up...im annoyed! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1494977 - 04/26/03 02:59 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The reports your bureaucrats are deliberately misrepresenting.

Tell me something. If you don't believe "UN bureaucrats" when they tell you the sanctions are genocidal why do you believe them when they tell you Saddam wasn't obeying UN resolutions? You never tire of excusing the attack on Iraq by saying "The UN has told us..", "The UN insists..."

The reports your bureaucrats claim support their position when in fact they do exactly the reverse

Von Sponeck stated he had information from a "wide variety of fronts" about the genocidal nature of the sanctions. You quite positive you know more than the humanitarian aid coordinator for Iraq from a google search?

My advice to you is to quit while you're ahead. We all know you'll never address the reports, because we have all observed your terror of facts for about a year now

Do you often do this pink? Do a 2 minute google search and consider yourself more knowledgeable than experts who have worked in the field for 30 years? My advice is to listen to the experts on the ground and open your mind.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1495677 - 04/26/03 01:19 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

And we all notice, once again, that Alex is incapable of summoning the sand to address the facts under discussion. My prediction holds true -- he will no more address the facts contained in the UNICEF studies than he will ever answer ny list of questions in the thread "Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!"

My advice is to listen to the experts on the ground and open your mind.

I have done so. You have instead chosen to be brainwashed by bureaucrats.

pinky




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1497271 - 04/27/03 03:59 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Around 4,500 children under the age of five are dying here every month from hunger and disease,"

- Philippe Heffinck, UNICEF Representative for Iraq.

Looks like even the UNICEF people writing the reports themselves are lying just to spite you pink...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1497485 - 04/27/03 10:23 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Alex, as you are well aware, that comment was from an article published October 4, 1996, before the funds from the Oil for Food program had been released to Iraq, and before the UNICEF infant mortality survey studies to which I refer had been conducted. Please provide a source showing that Philippe Heffinck was involved in either conducting the studies or writing the reports. The article you quoted from lists his position as merely "UNICEF representative". For all we know he was no longer even employed by UNICEF in 1999.

Here, for the seventh time, is what the authors of the reports have to say. I suggest you attempt to reconcile Halliday's arbitrarily-selected numbers with the words of those who did the studies --

As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility --

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."


UNICEF also said in the same report:

"A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq. Given the contribution of bottle-feeding to higher levels of malnutrition and child mortality, UNICEF is urging the Government to remove breastmilk substitutes from the rations and replace them with additional food for pregnant and lactating women. UNICEF has also called on the Government to promote exclusive breastfeeding of infants as a national policy."

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (04/27/03 10:24 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1497589 - 04/27/03 11:50 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions

Of course not. How can anyone give absolute figures in such a situation? No-one can give absolute figures of how many jews were killed by the Nazi's. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. All we know is the best estimate - 4-7000 children under 5 every month.

A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq

So what? Do you seriously believe if we keep sanctions in place but simply stop bottle-feeding everything will be ok?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1497593 - 04/27/03 11:52 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Who, in your view, is primarily responsible for the deaths of those 500,000 children under five?

All the members of the Permanent Security Council, when they passed 1284, reconfirmed that economic sanctions had to be sustained, knowing the consequences. That constitutes ?intent to kill?, because we know that sanctions are killing several thousand per month. Now, of the five permanent members, three abstained; but an abstention is no better than a vote for, in a sense. Britain and America of course voted for this continuation. The rest of them don?t count because they?re lackeys, or they?re paid off. The only country that stood up was Malaysia, and they also abstained. But you know, by abstaining instead of using your veto, when you are a permanent member you're guilty because you?re continuing something that has this deadly impact. However, I would normally point the finger at London and Washington, because they are the most active in sustaining sanctions: they are the ones who will not compromise. All the other members would back down if London and Washington would change their position. I think that?s quite clear. But unfortunately Blair and Clinton have an almost personal investment in demonising Saddam Hussein. That?s very hard to get out of, they have my sympathy, but they created their own problem. Once you?ve demonised somebody, it?s awfully difficult to turn around and say, ?Well actually he?s not such a bad guy, he likes kids?. Under the Baath Party regime, they ran a social welfare system in Iraq that was so intense it was almost claustrophobic, and they made damn sure that the average Iraqi was well taken care of, and they did it deliberately to divert them from any political activity and to maintain stability and allow them (Baath Party) to run the country. [US Secretary of State] Madeleine Albright has also fallen into the demonisation hole: her whole career is linked to maintaining this policy, although she didn?t start it.? - Dennis Halliday Former Assistant Secretary-General of The United Nations

http://www.zmag.org/edwinthalliday.htm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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