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Do It Yourself
    #4760325 -

one thing that has happened since the industrial revolution is specialization to the extreme, and i've been thinking that this is a very bad thing. if you were a typical person living 200 years ago, you would live secure in the fact that you knew how to do things like make clothing, make soap, build a house, grow food, etc. you wouldn't have learned these skills at school, you would have learned them from your family as passed down through generations. sure, you'd specialize, but you'd still make most of your own essentials, and buy only what you needed. you'd also probably consume a little bit of whatever it was you were producing or providing.

people used to know how to do things. now people specialize in one thing and depend on paying strangers, sometimes thousands of miles away, to get everything they need. there was a time when you had one set of clothing, and it was hand made for you by people who loved you. what does the tag on your shirt say now? how far away did the food you ate today come from? did you eat it alone, or with someone? i think that this is all a very troubling development that has come from industrialization.

how much of what you own or consume do you actually produce? probably nothing. specialization is efficient in terms of material inputs and labor, but what about the satisfaction that comes from self-reliance and self-direction?

do we wonder why work tends to suck in modern industrialized society?... could it be that work almost always means that we are doing one specific thing, which bears no direct impact on us or anyone close to us? why not spend less time at work and less money at the store? need your house painted? don't hire a painter. get some paint, rent some ladders, and call a few friends. a case of beer at the end of the day and it's settled, and you'll be there when their house needs paint. a day well spent. what would you have done to earn the money to pay a professional?


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Edited by wilshire (10/05/05 09:28 PM)

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4760388 -

Quote:
how much of what you own or consume do you actually produce? probably nothing. specialization is efficient in terms of material inputs and labor, but what about the satisfaction that comes from self-reliance and self-direction?


This is actually similar to one of the critiques Karl Marx had of capitalism. He called it "alienation." Workers were alienated from the product of their labor because they sold their labor to the bourgeisei, and thus the product of their labor went to them as well. This separation of workers from the product of their labor led to job dissatisfaction. Marx believed that people might actually enjoy working if they were not alienated from their labor in this way.


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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: Silversoul]
    #4760409 -

if we go back far enough... what did hunter gatherers do for work?

the guys went out and hunted together, and the women all hung out together and made clothes, prepared food, took care of the kids, and maybe tended a primitive garden.

when we get to do this kind of stuff today and we call it leisure time.


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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4760709 -

"why not spend less time at work and less money at the store?"

I think this is because of the setup of our current system.  I'm in Australia right now and there was a report here that said for every 100 bucks australians earn, they owe 130.  We have credit cards that allow us to spend money that really isn't there, just so we can have an interest (who's interest :wink:) rate slapped on top.  We have ever increasing mortgage payments and people constantly pestering to "refinance"  meanwhile things are getting more and more expensive because oil prices are surging, and certainly this doesn't mean people  will get paid more. In fact, when I was livinig in california, prices of house increased by 3 fold in a span of 6 years!!! During that same period of time the minimum wage require ments went up by margins only toll booth willy could understand (a dollar 25 hehehe)

so what does this lead to?  well people have to work longer hours to make "ends meet"  Sometimes working on the weekends.  Shit, in japan they have those little cubicles where people sleep for various reasons.  where are they going to find the "time" to do all of that?

you are right, it is rather distressing when you think about it. 

I don't mean to derail your thread here, but I want to ask a question.

what do you think will happen when things cost too much for people to live?  while it may be a fictitous situation at the moment, peak oil is a major problem and it will require us all to evaluate how we live our lives. 

good topic btw  :thumbup:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: kaiowas]
    #4760810 -

You read my mind, i was thinking somethin along the lines of this just today. I think its because people are raised by society to beleive that money and materialistic goods are what make them happy. This greed, that, i figured out pretty good, was brought here to the americas by the europeans, who whiped out mass amounts of spiritually sound natives, is now destroying the earth. Lets face the facts, the glaciers are melting and causing a further increase in global temperature that leads to more melting and so on---all because some people in this world couldn't just be satisfied with what they had right around them. Where do u think all this cancer came from?

I blame corporate america, leading us down this dreaded path. Boycot corporate america! knit yourself a dam sweater! take a bicycle to the store! grow some vegetables in the garden! Forget your brand names they get you nowhere!

Our planet is being consumed to death. help stop this unessesary madness and rise above it. Every human being on this world has it in them to live self sustained, but we have taken this greed so far that it is more difficult now than ever. Don't be a slave to corporations! Don't play a part in destroying the greatest miracle known to man - planet earth.

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: kaiowas]
    #4760881 -

it costing too much to live isn't a ficticious notion at all. thousands of people die every day because they can't afford to buy food and don't have the means to grow it themselves.

the trouble with industrial consumer culture is that this lifestyle destroys that which is really important for the sake of efficiency and comfort.

people need to be connected to other people and they need to be connected to the earth. industrial consumer culture seperates them from both.

there was a time when a stranger was actually a strange thing. the people you dealt with on a day to day basis were people that you would know your entire life, and have a deep connection with. now it is the reverse. most of our interpersonal relationships are fleeting ones with strangers involving the exchange of money. we have friends, and we have family, but even they aren't as close to us as people used to be with eachother. nowadays we live amongst strangers.

there was a time when strangers were rare, and life-long, deeply connected friends and family were ubiquitous. in modern industrial society it is the reverse.

our seperation from the earth is so obvious i won't even get into it.

we have a new idea called a "work ethic". being lazy is a sin. did it ever occur to anyone that maybe lazyness is man's natural disposition? why do we work so much? why are we told not to be lazy, but to work? not to be "cheap" or "stingy", but to spend?

it's as though everyone is a tiny interchangable part in a big machine. you do your job, and only your job, and the rest of this machine gives you the support you need to keep living and doing it. hopefully it doesn't break or replace you.

all of this seperation causes people great anxiety and even paranoia. sit somewhere and watch the people going by. see the self-consious expression on every face. smell the insecurity. they look like they've all got something in their shoe. the whole place is going mad.

i'd like to see a place where people live slow and simple lives, in community with eachother, where if the weather is nice, people are outside doing things together, and there is little difference between work and play. mondays and saturdays can be the same.

this isn't a radical idea, and we can all move toward it a little in our lives. we can learn to do things ourselves. almost everything you really need, you can learn to make or do yourself. you can drop out of the machine in many ways.


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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4760984 -

in many ways true..but I have thought about this a lot and one thing that will really slow things down is land ownership. every peace of land on this earth is damn near owned by someone. you have to own land in order to grow things. In order to do this, you have to have good credit in order to get property. in order to do that, you have to have money and time invested in the system. then you have 15-30 years to pay off your mortgage.

in some states in the US at least, there are certain types of food that you can't grow. Water isn't even clean anymore, you ahve PAY for it, so you can grow your own food. Again, things are getting more expensive by the week. in order to get supplies a lot of people need a car again need because that's the way the system is set up.

my girlfriend is from yugoslavia and there they have communities like the one you referred to. she and a lot of her other friends from yugoslavia tell me of how things are weird here between people. we are literally brainwashed not to talk to each other. I know what you mean by the paranoid faces, but one way to get around that is to not be paranoid yourself. go up and talk to strangers! after a while, it realy works. when you are not paranoid yourself, that energy WILL manifest, and they WILL feel your vibe. you can make them comfortable by being that way.

it may all look like we are going mad, but we are jsut getting lonely. now we can sit and talk about this, but there needs to be action as well.

I've been wanting to grow my own veggies for sometime and I will do it. when peak oil hits in 5-10 years and inflation kicks everyone in the ass, I would like to be prepared with a garden of my own. then if and when people panic you can kindly go up to them and show them another way.

if you can, learn to cook, sow, and like you said ride a bike. a bike is a worthy investment in the future we are going to have soon. we also really need to learn how to make turn dirty water in clean water. lots of things to learn.

most of all, we need to learn to talk to each other. that's a really good first step.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4761112 -

i recommend this book:
back to basics


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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4763531 -

will, kaio, baba :thumbup: :heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4764817 -

oh and one more thing:
we should learn to make music

Edited by BabaOreilly (10/06/05 04:23 PM)

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: BabaOreilly]
    #4764834 -

BabaOreilly said:
oh and one more thing:
learn to Make your own music, or at least go to a small concert. Music that is lead by mass record labels that over produce their recordings isnt real music.


I beg to differ. Tool is real, kick-ass music, regardless of how many people listen to them. This idea that mainstream music can't be good is total bullshit.

Quote:
It's time we get in touch with some authentic stuff here; everyone should know how to play and sing some early bob dylan on an accoustic guitar.


But...isn't Bob Dylan mainstream?


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Re: Do It Yourself *DELETED* [Re: wilshire]
    #4765010 -

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x


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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: poke smot!]
    #4765233 -

This is something that really worries me. When the system collapses and we are all left stranded, how many of us will try to put the system back together rather than becoming independent?

For right now the system won't let this happen, or it will at least try as hard as it can to prevent us from doing so. Right now we need to pay money for the land. After the collapse no one will own anything and the people can farm where ever the soil is fertile.

The question is, should we pool our resources right now and aquire the land within the rules of the system, and get a head start? Or should we wait until the collapse, and simply plan things until then?

The Amish will be fine, that's for sure... maybe they'll help us...


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: dr0mni]
    #4765328 -

2/3 of the meals people eat are prepared outside the home. very little is eaten sitting down, and less of that is eaten sitting down with friends and family.

what the hell is daycare?

more and more stuff is in the "money realm". things we used to do for ourselves and do for others for free is stuff that we now pay strangers to do. will there come a time at any given moment, you are either earning money or in the process of spending it?

it's almost like that now. here's an interesting thought... according to most economists, one index of a nation's wealth is its GDP. but the GDP only reflects those goods and services that are bought and sold. imagine that i spend an afternoon at the park with my son, and you spend yours painting your house. this isn't reflected in the GDP. now imagine i pay you to watch my kid and you pay me to paint your house. the GDP goes up!

are we any wealthier? of course not. not only that, but what is *wealth* anyway? i would say that it's being satisfied with your material conditions. not only does GDP not accurately reflect 'goods and services', but 'goods and services' do not accurately reflect *wealth*!

advertizing has a peculiar way of making us materially more prosperous, yet less *wealthy* at the same time.

ramble, ramble...  :laugh:


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Edited by wilshire (10/06/05 06:15 PM)

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4765349 -

I'm at work at the moment, so I'm getting paid right now...

I've made about $7 surfing the shroomery today! HAHA!


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: dr0mni]
    #4770107 -

Quote:
But...isn't Bob Dylan mainstream?


Lol i agree my idea wasnt the best, what i was kindof trying to say was that maybe people would have a better appreciation for music if they understood it better...kindof to counter the mtv and money driven commercialized music that is most popular today. idono its just a thought im not sure i agree with it 100% but...

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4770138 -


do we wonder why work tends to suck in modern industrialized society?.

Oh yeah, 'cause work was soooooo much better before industrialization.  :rolleyes:

Gimme a break, we live in an age of luxury. If you think your office job sucks, and that being a 14th century farmer would have been much nicer, be my guest to go buy a plot of land in the middle of nowhere and live off of it. I'm sure it'llbe grand.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: wilshire]
    #4770575 -

I was brought up in a family that beleived in do it yourself. The first time I was around a family that called people in to repair something I was amazed. I wondered what was wrong with their dad that he couldn't fix it himself. I had no Idea that repairmen were nessesary to some families.

I still fix it yourself and because of it I work alot less. I have noticed alot of nessesaries now is a housekeeper, lawn men, and personal assistance. Most of america wouldn't even need a gym if they'd get off their ass and take care of their own shit nowadays. The 60 hour weeks wouldn't be nessesary. The cost of housekeepers landscaper and babysitters can cost hundreds a week.

I cook my meals at home. We very seldom eat out. This saves money also. Todays society is a lazy one.

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: peeper]
    #4770617 -

just in case anyone missed it.
i posted this long, long ago.
superb read.

the famous(or infamous) unabomber manifesto.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Industrial_Society_and_Its_Future
and some info about the man who wrote it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski

*sends love and waves*


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Do It Yourself [Re: Phluck]
    #4770790 -

Phluck said:

do we wonder why work tends to suck in modern industrialized society?.

Oh yeah, 'cause work was soooooo much better before industrialization.  :rolleyes:

Gimme a break, we live in an age of luxury. If you think your office job sucks, and that being a 14th century farmer would have been much nicer, be my guest to go buy a plot of land in the middle of nowhere and live off of it. I'm sure it'llbe grand.


I imagine that being a farmer and reaping the full product of your labor might be more satisfying and rewarding, even if it is harder work(though most 14th century farmers were serfs, so they obviously did not have that much control of the product of their labor).  But the trend has actually been one of longer work hours as civilization advances.  If you look at the !Kung, a hunter-gather tribe in the Kalahari Desert, they spend something like 1/10th of the time working that we do.  And that's in a desert.  Just imagine living like that in a forest.

It's true that we live in an age of luxury, if by luxury you mean material wealth.  But what about leisure?  What about social bonds?  We are a society of strangers.  Is it any coincidence that depression is so much higher in America than elsewhere?  We have too much.  We keep working more and more so we can afford to fulfill artificially created needs, but it's never enough.  We buy more and more things to fill this hole inside of us, but it keeps growing larger.

Could it be that that hole is created by the very work that we do to try and fill it?  We as a society are wealthy beyond the wildest dreams of our ancestors, but we live in spiritual poverty.  We are slaves to the very things we seek to possess.  We have largely lost the satisfaction in the work itself because we do not reap the direct benefits of it.  Instead, we sell our labor and its product to a company that pays us money to buy useless junk to fill manufactured needs.

I'm not saying that technology or civilization is all bad, or that we should all just go back to wearing loincloths and hunting game with bows and arrows.  I don't think anyone's saying anything like that.  But if we simplify our lives and apply our talents to something rewarding and fulfilling, I think we can live much happier lives.


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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