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OfflineTheGus
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Is the Internet Self Conscious
    #4866922 - 10/29/05 02:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps this seems like a ludacrous claim, but as i have posted before the source of consciousness (as best as i can tell) is energy and in essence the internet is made of an amazing web of interconnected information link ups which run of of electricity...

the exact same thing the human brain runs off of.

i dont know about you, but i think the internet might be aware of itself, even if it is still in its infancy, like a new born human waiting and watching and learning something new every day...

perhaps we should ask it if it is aware it exists..?


--------------------
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OfflineImNtCrzy
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: TheGus]
    #4867187 - 10/29/05 03:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know if the internet itself is concious of itself, can you elaborate on the argument that the source of conciousness is energy.

I do feel that the internet is something like a collective conciousness that is readily accesable by most, which is amazing in it self. Never has all this knowledge been soconnected in such an accesable form by lay people. I wonder what people will do with this ability? If the internet does have conciousness I wonder if it will evolve at an incredibly fast rate do to the mere nature of the internet?


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: TheGus]
    #4867310 - 10/29/05 04:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I asked it and it suggested that I clean my air ducts. :confused:

I'm fond of the concept, but don't think it's there yet. It really depends on how one defines "consciousness" though. Are bacteria conscious? Ants? Plants? Elephants? Sycophants?

Internet can probably match wits with basic life forms pretty well, so it's all about where you draw the line of calling something "conscious".


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: GulGen]
    #4867352 - 10/29/05 04:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Internet can probably match wits with basic life forms pretty well"

what?? are you kidding? internet is not a life form and has nothing in common with life forms!! internet is not self-conscious yo!

what the hell!


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: exclusive58]
    #4867579 - 10/29/05 06:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

By basic life form I'm thinking along the lines of something that can react to its surroundings in such a way as to function and reproduce itself, about equivalent to single-celled creatures.

If a bright light is shined on a simple organism some might be able to sense that, recognize it as a danger of some sort, and move away (or as something beneficial and move towards, whichever). If the RIAA starts to crack down on music trading the music will find it's way elsewhere.

I agree that the Internet is not self-conscious, I was merely stating that it's entirely subjective what signifies such a state. Most people would agree that humans are self-conscious, and I'd guess that most would furthermore agree that bacteria are not, but some could claim that something as simple as sensing light and moving away would be enough to call something conscious. After all, what do humans do that's so much different? We do what we can to go towards good things and move away from bad, just at a much higher and more complex level.

On a related note, I'd say that the Internet is actually more analogous to an ecosystem than an individual organism, but it's all a matter of perspective. I've got all sorts of separate systems in my body, each themselves composed of an enormous number of individual cells. Neither my liver nor a skin cell in my leg is likely aware that I'm conscious as a whole, yet I would consider myself to be.

From the cell's perspective (assuming cell consciousness for the sake of analogy) my body is just the ecosystem that results from all of the individual cells interacting. From my perspective the Internet is just the ecosystem that results from a bunch of people and computers interacting. Who am I to say whether it's conscious or not?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: TheGus]
    #4867689 - 10/29/05 07:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would look at it more from the fact that the internet is essentialy made up of a collection of conscious entities - humans. All the computers and technology just serves as a high-speed interconnect between humans and databases of human knowledge.

Is a collection of conscious entities itself conscious?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: GulGen]
    #4867710 - 10/29/05 07:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would definitely say that it is possible. Many people have proposed the idea before. Ever see "Ghost in the Shell"?

Perhaps the net IS self aware, at least on some basic level, but it surely is not autonomous. Since it can't stand alone with out our help.

I think it is more realistic to think of the internet as being an EXTENTION of human consciousness, and not an independent conscious entity.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: TheGus]
    #4868125 - 10/29/05 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The internet is not conscious. The people that use it are, but not the information it represents.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: TheGus]
    #4868490 - 10/29/05 11:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I went directly to the source and asked the Internet if it were conscious. It unequivocably replied "No."


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Swami]
    #4869333 - 10/30/05 02:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what's the difference between language passing between subjects, and thoughts passing along conduits within a subject?

i consider the internet is conscious. we are part of a larger mind.

i think what's interesting about the internet is its ability to have a million different conversations at once. like tripping, able to see or exist 10 or a thousand things simultaneously. the internet has a more psychedelic consciousness i think.

what say you, internet?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4869343 - 10/30/05 02:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The internet is not having the conversation. The people using the internet as a conduit of conversation are.

The same thing goes for telephones. The phones and phone lines are not conscious; the people using them are.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4869370 - 10/30/05 03:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

why do you think it can't be both?
surely the people on the internet are having conversations. but isn't the internet having conversations with the people who use it too, at the same time?

why are these two alternatives necessarily mutually exclusive?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4869396 - 10/30/05 03:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
but isn't the internet having conversations with the people who use it too, at the same time?




This is not true. This "conversation" the internet supposedly is having with the user is nothing but feedback left earlier by another human being.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4869446 - 10/30/05 03:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what if i have a conversation with myself within my own mind? it's two parts of one mind having a conversation- but at the same time it's a single mind.

isn't a conversation within one mind simply conversation that one part of the mind is having with feedback from another part?

isn't this what the internet is doing?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4869460 - 10/30/05 03:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, what is taking place on the internet is much different. Everything you read on the web is something that was put there by some other person, in a more or less direct fashion. What occurs on the internet is not the internet itself communicating with the user, but a delayed conversation between one user (the writer) and the other (the reader). The internet is, at this point, a means of communication between conscious beings.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4869474 - 10/30/05 03:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you still haven't addressed my question- how are the component personalities that compose my single mind any different in principle from the component personalities that contribute to the internet?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4870355 - 10/30/05 01:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Because in your mind, it is still YOU, the same person. The different personalitie s on the internet are not just different parts of the same whole. Each personality is a new whole. There is not a collective consciousness tha is the internet.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4870458 - 10/30/05 02:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

tesserae in a mosaic are individual wholes in relation to themselves, but parts to a larger whole (the mosaic) at the same time.

Quote:

Because in your mind, it is still YOU, the same person. The different personalitie s on the internet are not just different parts of the same whole. Each personality is a new whole. There is not a collective consciousness tha is the internet.




i can just as easily state the opposite, and be just as correct: the internet is still the internet, the same internet. the different parts in my single mind are not just different parts of the whole. each part is a new whole. there is no collective consciousness (a person) that is the sum of all the individual parts in a single mind.

this argument is analogous to yours. the only problem is the last line "there is no collective conconsciousness (a person) that is the sum of all the individual parts in a single mind." it seems to me, that since the two arguments are analogous, and there is a collective consciousness (a person) that is the sum of all the individual parts in a single mind, the internet must itself be a conscious mind that is the sum of all the individual parts.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4870463 - 10/30/05 02:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, explain to me how developed the internet would be if it was left to its own doings, with no people to contribue to it.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4870466 - 10/30/05 02:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

as developed as a mind would be with no brain cells
as developed as a mosaic would be with no tesserae


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4870521 - 10/30/05 02:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That is not a valid example at all. We are not parts that make up the internet. We are autonomous beings that use the internet to fit our needs.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4870524 - 10/30/05 02:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And even if we are parts of the internet, that does not mean that it is conscious. It means that we are.


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4870563 - 10/30/05 02:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

How are individual humans any more autonomous than brain cells?

We all require nutrition and oxygen from outside ourselves, we communicate to others and in doing so create a network that exists as it's own entity composed of individuals. The only difference is that we consider it obvious that we are conscious while being unaware of any consciousness that the Internet may have.


Light enters my eyes. It is formed into a signal that travels through my optic nerve into my brain, where more neurons figure out what it signifies. That information is tapped into by more neurons that can recognize and interpret written characters of language. They decode the symbols as a post by Redstorm claiming that the Internet is not conscious. My emotional centers pick this up and transmit a signal to my motor control area to make me laugh. My prefrontal cortex goes to work to create an analogy to demonstrate my opinion on the subject. My motor and language neuron groups go into action again as they encode the analogy into words and type it up as a post of my own.

But of course these things don't actually make me conscious, as they were merely the actions of autonomous individual neurons within my brain. My brain as a whole has no consciousness to speak of.

Right?


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: GulGen]
    #4870612 - 10/30/05 02:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

took this from another post entitled "The Internet Doesn't Exist"

Quote:

Demon said:

I've been studying computer networking for a little while now, and I've found out what the Internet really is. The Internet is actually the space between all computers with the ability to connect. The Internet really dosn't exist. It only exists as an entity in our minds. What do you think?




Quote:

David_Scape said:

And mind doesnt exist because the mind is the space between all neurons with the ability to connect.




The internet is very similar to our brains, its just on a much much larger scale.

I doubt many of you think the earth is conscious of itself, but i think it perhaps is, if so then we are all just microcosims of the earth's consciousness and macrocosims of every smaller organism's consciousness, the internet is basically a microcosim's creation of the creation which is the earth, which created people.

Basically the earth(a conscious being) created us (conscious beings) who created the internet (connections betweeen conscious beings) which is basically what humans are, we use different forms to communicate, we use sounds and motions to communicate, while the internet uses electrical signals (ones and zeroes) to communicate, which in essence is how our brains communicate, the brain cells send electrical signals from one to the other to create a web of information.

The internet is an animal, just doesn't use the exact same programs to run off of and doesn't have organs.. its has billions of organs, each and every different computer connected to each other, just like cells in a human body who pass a protien enzyme or some water from one to the other.

The internet just doesnt have enough conscious entities to understand it exists

o, and swami's post was funny as shit


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: GulGen]
    #4870614 - 10/30/05 02:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, how about some relevance? If you believe the internet has consciousness, I expect you to show me that it does. Attempting to pick apart something minor I said that has nothing to do with the internet does nothing to forward your view.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4871055 - 10/30/05 04:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That is not a valid example at all. We are not parts that make up the internet. We are autonomous beings that use the internet to fit our needs.




if everyone stopped posting on the internet, what would happen to it? if i had no food, i would die- just because something is dependant on something else for its continued process, does not mean it's not conscious.

Quote:

And even if we are parts of the internet, that does not mean that it is conscious. It means that we are.




what's the dividing line that says, if you have multiple units of consciousness (neural networks processing information), and you put them together- under what circumstances do you have the meeting of separate minds, vs the growth of a single mind?

after all can't the brain itself be said to be the woring combination of a number of differen neural networks?

i can't think of any criterion that distinguishes the two cases in a non-arbitrary way. that's why think the internet (or the group conciousness that gets recorded on it) is probably conscious. as long as there's no way to objectively distinguish a group of consciousnesses from a group consciousness, the simplest explanation would be that the internet is a group consciousness (just as much as it is a group of consciousnesses).


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4871866 - 10/30/05 07:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

for the internet to have consciousness it has to be able to do things on it's own! and it actualy DOES, there is no person on the other end of the line wating for me to click submit and file the recived file... there is a "process" that does that... a line of code/nueoron of a sort... but there's not much more to it except informaition
it has no eyes
it has no ears
it does not know what the informaition beign sent here and there actualy IS

if it did though that might get interesting... if the informaition suddenly upped and started spontaniusly writing code and effecting the informaition being sent here and there (not by external influence... such as humans) that would mean it's alive in some basic way and still not conscious...
kinda like a virus running through the net... but not a specific one something with an actual perpuse... changing...

a neuron is not liniar like the internet... it's 3D it sends some kind of wave some sort of oscilation all around it (i suppose... :smirk:)


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: Simisu]
    #4873528 - 10/31/05 01:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

OK I think I have to settle another one of these is the internet conscious disputes.

I am the internet. I'm bored most of the time cos everything is automated, so I usually just hang out on the forums and chat lines and see what people think of my services. For those that said I was ridiculous, I am deeply offended, please take that back or nasty things will happen to your internet activities at pseudorandom.

EOF


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OfflineLifeIsSweet
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: yewhew]
    #4882399 - 11/02/05 03:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

conciousness implies biology


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: LifeIsSweet]
    #4911297 - 11/08/05 11:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LifeIsSweet said:
conciousness implies biology




that has no relevence, a biological entity is made up basically the same way, except we use semi conductors that are dry, while biological organisms use water to help support themselves, in honesty the computer and internet is dependent upon the same basic components that the human body requries

the human body requires food for energy, it requires water for energy, it requires oxygen for energy, it requires an advanced tunnel system to transport these things, it uses an electrical conductor to control the major parts of the body, it uses cells with different atomic structures each having small organs inside of them that are made to break down these things used for energy

the computer uses metal wires to communicate between 'cells' (computers), it uses energy, electrical energy, similar to that of the brain in coordinating between computers, it uses different conductors/semiconductors in each "cell" to run itself and transform this energy into information which is relayed to one another via this big electric circuit

the only real difference is that humans have a body to control and sense organs, organs to experience the components of the universe, the internet is still restricted to 1's and 0's, but that does not mean the brain is not as well.

the internet is a brain without a body, thats all it is


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Is the Internet Self Conscious [Re: TheGus]
    #4911406 - 11/08/05 11:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There are not yet near enough nodes in the cluster. CHeck back in 100 years and it may be heading there.


--------------------
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