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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Life Imitates Internet Imitates Life...
#5922366 - 08/01/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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In real life, we have places like China where debate and critique can land one in prison at best and 'disappeared' at worst. Google searches for "Human Rights" or "Tiananmen Square" are blocked and cause the user's internet connection to go down automatically for several days.
Here, we have our own China. It's called MRP. We've even had members 'disappeared' in the past because they chime in with reason when gibberish is being discussed unopposed.
In real life, we have George Bush calling North Korea names like "Axis of Evil", while the Koreans call Bush an "Idiot" and "Human Trash".
Here, when someone's ideas are exposed as nonsense by the use of logic, common sense, or even direct factual quotations, the reply is often an ad hominem rather than an addressing of the points presented for debate.
It's depressing to come to one of the places I frequent to escape the real world only to find more of the real world. People are the same everywhere, even the ones who fancy themselves different. What do you think?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/01/06 05:02 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922409 - 08/01/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:

Oh, I'm sorry. Still sore about not being able to derail my thread, which was specifically targeted towards fellow mystics? You know, sometimes people want to discuss something with a certain group of like-minded people, and don't like having the discussion derailed.
You sure have a big ego for thinking that you were introducing anything resembling logic and common sense, when all you were doing was the equivalent of yelling "white power" at an NAACP meeting. I'm perfectly willing to discuss the issues you have with my beliefs, just not in certain threads which are addressed to other people. Please, for the love of God, get over yourself.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922449 - 08/01/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh, I'm sorry. Still sore about not being able to derail my thread
LMAO
You guys are SOOOO predictable. 
You sure have a big ego
Quote:
Here, when someone's ideas are exposed as nonsense by the use of logic, common sense, or even direct factual quotations, the reply is often an ad hominem
and don't like having the discussion derailed.
It's not a discussion if the scope is limited to agreement only.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922456 - 08/01/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I couldn't agree more, but what ever gave you the idea that it would be different anywhere you go?
The Shroomery is like any business and operates just like one. If you want things different then work for yourself. I made that same mistake of course so I'm not raggin on you.
Just remember, as Veritas says. "For intertainment purposes only".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922470 - 08/01/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Here, when someone's ideas are exposed as nonsense by the use of logic, common sense, or even direct factual quotations, the reply is often an ad hominem
The "ad hominem" in that thread was merely the factual observation that despite the fact that it was explained to you many times over, you have no idea what mysticism is, to which you responded with the usual arrogant "Aha! You mystics are so irrational, you can't discuss this with me!" attitude.
Quote:
It's not a discussion if the scope is limited to agreement only.
It is if we're discussing something within a certain framework. The Sierra Club has many heated discussions among its members at meetings, even though they all agree that they want to protect the environment.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922478 - 08/01/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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it was explained to you many times over, you have no idea what mysticism is
I've explained to YOU many times that 100 mystics will have 100 DIFFERENT and CONTRADICTING definitions for what mysticism is.
What does that say about YOU?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922485 - 08/01/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: it was explained to you many times over, you have no idea what mysticism is
I've explained to YOU many times that 100 mystics will have 100 DIFFERENT and CONTRADICTING definitions for what a mystic is.
What does that say about YOU?
It says that mysticism has a certain meaning which is not quite so easy to define, just like religion, even though it is recognized by anyone who seriously looks into it that mysticism is a particular aspect of religion, and not synonymous with religion. Of course, you ignore every definition of mysticism, and conveniently try to make it into something you can attack. If you really want help, however, it's not that hard to find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism
In any case, what it says to me about you is that you'd rather start fights than actually learn something.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922487 - 08/01/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It says that mysticism has a certain meaning which is not quite so easy to define
I guess this is where we disagree.
I think it says that mystics all make crap up at their whim, so naturally none of their whimsical ideas ever match up.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922490 - 08/01/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I think it says that mystics all make crap up at their whim, so naturally none of their whimsical ideas ever match up.
Mystical traditions go back for millenia. I hardly think it's possible to "make up crap at a whim" that has been around for thousands of years.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922493 - 08/01/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mystical traditions go back for millenia. I hardly think it's possible to "make up crap at a whim" that has been around for thousands of years.
Astrology, tea leaves, and casting of bones to foretell the future are too. So what?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/02/06 02:08 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922498 - 08/01/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Mystical traditions go back for millenia. I hardly think it's possible to "make up crap at a whim" that has been around for thousands of years.
Astrology, tea leaves, and casting of bones to foretell the future do too. So what?
So, just because something is hard to define does make one guilty of "making up crap at a whim." Religion itself is hard to define, yet it is recognized as being a category of its own. Pretty much anything that has several aspects to will be hard to define.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922513 - 08/01/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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So, just because something is hard to define does make one guilty of "making up crap at a whim."
Ask yourself WHY it's hard to define.
Love is hard to define. So is art. So are many things in human experience, but they're all defined and observable by everyone. That's why they are real.
All mystics have is some weird internal experience that is as likely to be a consequence of psychology and self-deception as some real thing from 'beyond'.
Given the giant avalanche of human self-deception throughout all of history, why choose the most unlikely 'magical' explanation over the ordinary one?
I'll tell you why. Because here again we see the human predilection for kidding oneself. Magical explanations are way more exiting than mundane ones, and so many people lean that way even though there is no reason to.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5922543 - 08/01/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: All mystics have is some weird internal experience
Then we can start from the fact that that internal experience is a part of what defines mysticism, so you can stop deliberately obtusificating its definition.
Quote:
that is as likely to be a consequence of psychology and self-deception as some real thing from 'beyond'.
opinion, not fact
Quote:
Given the giant avalanche of human self-deception throughout all of history, why choose the most unlikely 'magical' explanation over the ordinary one?
It's not "magical," and I certainly don't see anything unlikely about it. Just because your experiences don't conform to mine doesn't make your opinions any more valid.
Quote:
I'll tell you why. Because here again we see the human predilection for kidding oneself. Magical explanations are way more exiting than mundane ones, and so many people lean that way even though there is no reason to.
For those who have had the experience, there is plenty of reason to.
In any case, this is beside the point. The point is not the legitimacy of mysticism, but rather the fact that you chose to go into a thread which was explicitly meant as a discussion between mystics, and decided to start shit. And now you're complaining about how this is supposedly like communist China. I can scarcely recall anyone so full of themselves.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922552 - 08/01/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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BTW, if it's any consolation, you're perfectly welcome to respond to my points in the "World Peace" thread. That is, if you have a response.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922601 - 08/01/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Then we can start from the fact that that internal experience is a part of what defines mysticism
In a recent thread I called suicide bombers mystics. When you took issue with that and tried to explain to me that 'real' mystics take their inspiration from internal experience, I followed up with a quote from an interview with a suicide bomber whose bomb failed to explode where he explained that his motivation comes from a direct experience of Allah.
So which is it? You can't have it both ways, and mystics' insistence that black is white and sometimes not is their biggest problem.
It's not "magical
Everything that is beyond nature is, by definition, magical. Mystical experiences are beyond nature unless you grant that they are a consequence of natural human psychology, in which case they aren't mystical are they.
Quote:
Diploid: and so many people lean that way even though there is no reason to [believe]
For those who have had the experience, there is plenty of reason to.
I've had mystical experiences. On my first few trips on psilocybin, I saw God. He was a happy, good-natured, chubby black Jamaican guy with a thick accent and a contagious guffaw. He'd do amazing magic for me, tickle me, whisper in my ear from across the room. Those were some of the best times of my life.
But when I got sober, I realized it was all psychology as there was no trace of what I'd imagined left once the drug wore off. There is no reason for me to cling onto that fantasy, pleasant though it was.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Immitates Internet Immitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5922608 - 08/01/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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BTW, if it's any consolation, you're perfectly welcome to respond to my points in the "World Peace" thread.
Thanks, but no thanks. The Chinese military has warned me, and I take the threat seriously.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Life Imitates Internet Imitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5923344 - 08/01/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't think the analogy is valid, personally. I completely understand why MRP was created, and it seems to work out for everyone. Here in P&S, if someone gets out of line when someone else directly analyzes their point, and starts flipping out and attacking the person who is simply interested in furthering the discussion, we can clearly state to them "Hey, dumbfuck, read the fucking rules, you're out of order, so get in line or get the fuck out." 
Some people just want to converse with each other in ways different than you do. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Imitates Internet Imitates Life... [Re: fireworks_god]
#5923657 - 08/01/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't believe restricting the free expression of ideas is EVER a good thing to do under any circumstances. Guess I'm just American that way.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Life Imitates Internet Imitates Life... [Re: Diploid]
#5923667 - 08/01/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you believe that a private property owner has the right to restrict what goes on on their property?
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Life Imitates Internet Imitates Life... [Re: Silversoul]
#5923693 - 08/01/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Of course.
I'm not saying the admins don't have a right to do whatever they want. I just don't agree with them on this issue.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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