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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4764485 -

Quote:
Is it not conceivable that someone who may sit in the sand and muse about how much he hates the decadence of the west would not dare consider actually doing something about it until, say, his son's leg was blown off by an American grenade? Or his house was destroyed by an American Apache? Anything?




That leftist lie has been told millions of times already and yet they keep repeating it.

From:
The Types of Jihad
http://www.ummah.net.pk/harkat/jihad/t-jihad.htm
(site is offline, but here's the google-cache of the article)
There are two types of Jihad against the Kuffar

1- Offensive Jihad
2- Defensive Jihad

1- Offensive Jihad is when the Muslims launch an offensive attack. If this attack is on the Kuffar who have previously received the message of Islam, then to call them towards Islam before commencement of the attack is considered preferable.

However, if the message of Islam has not reached them, then the Kuffar will be invited towards Islam. If they reject this true faith, then they will have to pay Jizyah (Kufr tax). If they refuse to submit to the payment of Jizyah then the Muslims are to fight against them. With this type of Jihad the Kuffar who plot against the Muslims are repelled and their hearts are filled with fear, so that they do not succeed in their plans.

The offensive Jihad is Fardh Kifayah, the purpose of which is to ensure the Kuffar remain terrorised and away from mischief, thereby, allowing the message of Islam to be conveyed without any obstructions.

If one group of Muslims fulfil this obligation then it will be sufficient on behalf of all Muslims, but if there are no Muslims fulfilling this obligation then everyone is considered sinful.

It is stated in Fatawa Shami: It is required of the Imam (leader) of the Muslims to dispatch the army routinely once or twice a year towards the Kufr countries. It is also the duty of the Muslim public to assist the Imam in this noble cause. If the Imam does not send an army, then he will considered sinful.

The majority of Jihad undertaken at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) was within the category of offensive Jihad.

The Quran has called upon the Muslims to undertake the offensive Jihad and when this obligation is satisfactorily fulfilled there would be no apparent need for the defensive Jihad.

When Muslims neglect this important obligation then they are subjected to the defensive Jihad and this has become, with regret, widely common in our time.
----------------------------------------
From:
www.islam-qa.com
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=5441&dgn=3
Question #5441: Was Islam spread by the sword?

Question:
Some enemies of the religion claim that Islam was spread by the sword. What is your response to that?

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Islam was spread by proof and evidence, in the case of those who listened to the message and responded to it. And it was spread by strength and the sword in the case of those who stubbornly resisted, until they had no choice and had to submit to the new reality.

And Allaah is the source of strength. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.

Fataawaa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah, 12/14
(www.islam-qa.com)



recent update on the same question:
Question #43087: Was Islam spread by the sword?
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=43087&dgn=3

--------------------------------------------------------------

From:
Jihaad against the kuffar is of two types
http://www.islamicawakening.com/Sahar/Ji...202000%20.phtml
by Dr. Abdullah Azzaam:
Offensive Jihaad (where the enemy is attacked in his own territory).

Where the Kuffar are not gathering to fight the Muslims. The fighting becomes Fard Kifaya with the minimum requirement of appointing believers to guard borders, and the sending of an army at least once a year to terrorize the enemies of Allah. It is a duty of upon the Imam to assemble and send out an army unit into the land of war once or twice every year. Moreover, it is the responsibility of the Muslim population to assist him, and if he does not send an army he is in sin.

And the Ulama have mentioned that this type of jihaad is for maintaining the payment of Jizya. The scholars of the principles of religion have also said: "Jihaad is Da'wah with a force, and is obligatory to perform with all available capabilities, until there remains only Muslims or people who submit to Islam."

-------------------------
From:
The book of Miscellany - Chapter 49
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/riyad/00/chap049.htm
Riyad-us-Saliheen
Compiled By Al-Imam Abu Zakariya Yahya bin Sharaf An-Nawawi Ad-Dimashqi
390. `Abdullah bin `Umar (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "I have been commanded (by Allah) to fight people until they testify that there is no true god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform Salat and pay Zakat. If they do so, they will have protection of their blood and property from me except when justified by Islam, and then account is left to Allah".
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Commentary: This Hadith brings out the following .... points:

1. The objective of Jihad. This objective warrants that one must struggle against Kufr (disbelief) and Shirk (polytheism) and the worship of falsehood in all its forms. Jihad has to continue until this objective is achieved. This contention is supported by a Hadith, to the effect that Jihad will continue till the Day of Resurrection. In this Hadith the word (An-Nas) translated above as "people" stands for the polytheists and idolaters. The reason being that other Nasus (pl. of Nass, meaning `text') confirm the exemption of Ahl-ul-Kitab (people of the Scriptures) from it subject to the condition that they agree to pay Jizyah (dues imposed by Islam on the people of the Book living under the protection of an Islamic state) and submit to the Muslim rule.

The Arab pagans have only the choice to either embrace Islam or face war.

In the latter case, it is incumbent on the Muslims to wage Jihad against them to wipe out Kufr and Shirk and raise the banner of Tauhid everywhere.

This Hadith strongly refutes the people who distort the Islamic concept of Jihad and hold that Islam preaches defensive war only. It is an apologetic approach because defensive war has to be fought in any case by every nation and country. Thus, it is a compulsion and needs no justification. The real distinction of Islam lies in its enjoining Muslims to wage war for upholding the truth besides fighting for their own defense.

The domination of Kufr, Shirk and falsehood is darkness, heresy and tyranny, and the objective of Islam is to purge the world of all these evils. It aims at liberating man from the worship of man, set them on the path of worship of Allah, and to provide a just and equitable society to mankind.

Wherever in the world there is tyranny, ignorance and heresy, Muslims are bound to fight such evils and finish them by means of Jihad.
---------------------------------------------------------------

From:
http://www.almuhajiroun.com/ (Brittish muslim site)

click 'Al Khilafah' --->
click: 'The Destruction of the Khilafah' --->
click: 'Islamic Conquests' --->
The Islamic Conquests to Spread Islam
http://www.obm.clara.net/Islamic_Topics/Khilafah_Destroyed/Islamic_Conquest.htm:

(some quotes)
The mission of the Islamic nation in life is to carry the Message of Islam to the whole of mankind, therefore the Muslims had to be in touch with the world. The Islamic State was thus obliged to carry out this task which Islam has decreed in order to convey the Message. It was inevitable that the State would conquer other countries and achieve this with great success. These conquests were merely the implementation of an Islamic obligation, which is the conveying of Islam to people in a manner that would catch their imagination by implementing its rules on them and spreading its concepts among them. Therefore the Islamic conquests were not designed to exploit and colonise people, nor were they made to take advantage of the resources of their land. The only aim was to carry the Message of Islam to them in order to save them from the miserable lives that they were leading and the rotten regimes that they were ruled by. This is clearly apparent, for that is why the Islamic State was founded, the Islamic conquests carried out and Jihad decreed.

The Islamic State was established on a very strong basis, an establishment that saw it grow and expand, spread and conquer other countries.

The Messenger of Allah (SAW) had designed the plan of the conquests before his death.

His plan was also reflected in the launching of the raids of Mu'ta and Tabuk and in the preparing of Usama's army.

This necessitated the conquering of every country regardless of its poverty or wealth and regardless of the resistance put up by its people. The spreading of Islam and the carrying of its Message ignores the wealth or the poverty factor and the acceptance or the refusal of the people. The main aim is simply the conveying of Islam, to establish it as an intellectual leadership from which a way of life is derived. This Message should be carried to all mankind in all the countries.

The Holy verses came thick and fast commanding the Muslims to fight in the way of Islam.

"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah" [TMQ; 8:39]

And He (SWT) says in Surah Al-Baqara:
"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression." [TMQ; 2:193]

Allah (SWT) says in Surah Al-Tawbah:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Deen of truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" [TMQ; 9:29]

These verses, among others, have commanded the Muslims to perform Jihad and indicated to Muslims the aim behind the conquests. It was these verses that motivated the Muslims to conquer other countries.
--------------------------------
From:
General Musharraf's attempts to please Hindus
http://www.jamatdawa.org/english/articles/pakistan/agra_summit.htm


If only General Musharraf has studied the Muslim history, he would have known that how Muslims used to represent Islam in the courts of disbelievers. The first thing they always did was to invite the disbeliever ruler to Islam. Their visits were never unsuccessful. They invited disbelievers to Islam. If they rejected this invitation they waged Jihad to fulfill Allaah's commands. Muslim generals have never had unsuccessful visits. They always returned successful. They never needed any protocol or welcome. They had embraced Islam fully and they followed the injunctions earnestly. They deemed it a command of Allaah to clash with disbelievers and to shed blood for the dominance of Islam. This was the key to their success against the Christian, Persian and other empires.

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764487 -

ToiletDuk said:
Nope. The ends do not justify the means. Now about my question..



You're still missing it completely. My question is not whether you would support this group -- who the fuck in their right minds would? My question is whether you'd be able to support their cause, assuming it is just, in light of the fact that they are doing some horrendous things in the name of that cause. If there's anyone here who can think of a more eloquent way to put this so that we can move on with the debate, please help me out -- I'm not having much luck.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764492 -

Did you miss the part where he said "nope"?

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4764516 -

Redstorm said:
Did you miss the part where he said "nope"?



Did you missed the part where he erroneously inferred that Ancalagon meant that the ends justify the means?


--------------------

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764520 -

Ancalagon said:
ToiletDuk said:
Nope. The ends do not justify the means. Now about my question..



You're still missing it completely. My question is not whether you would support this group -- who the fuck in their right minds would? My question is whether you'd be able to support their cause, assuming it is just, in light of the fact that they are doing some horrendous things in the name of that cause. If there's anyone here who can think of a more eloquent way to put this so that we can move on with the debate, please help me out -- I'm not having much luck.



Er...again no. The ends do not justify the means. Sorry to hold things up for you...

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4764527 -

Redstorm said:
Did you miss the part where he said "nope"?



He answered the question "would you support group x if you agreed with their philosophy but disagreed vehemently with their actions?" Did you miss the part where I never asked that question? The question I asked, and the one that's relative to the topic at hand is "would you support CAUSE x if a group that supported the same cause pursued actions in the name of that cause that you vehemently disagreed with?" Got it?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764536 -

He is not saying the ends justify the means. Please read what is written. He is saying that in some cases, the demands of terrorists are things which should be done anyway, and that to refuse to do them simply because the terrorists have demanded it is counterproductive. If terrorists demanded that the US legalize marijuana, should we then keep marijuana illegal simply because we do not negotiate with terrorists? Personally, I would prefer that we legalize marijuana anyway, and then prosecute the terrorists who were making the demands.


--------------------

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764537 -


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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4764559 -

Paradigm said:
He is not saying the ends justify the means. Please read what is written. He is saying that in some cases, the demands of terrorists are things which should be done anyway, and that to refuse to do them simply because the terrorists have demanded it is counterproductive. If terrorists demanded that the US legalize marijuana, should we then keep marijuana illegal simply because we do not negotiate with terrorists? Personally, I would prefer that we legalize marijuana anyway, and then prosecute the terrorists who were making the demands.



Well, where do you draw the line? If people started suicide attacks on behalf of marijuana legalisation, would that not alienate (to put it mildly!) those whom they were trying to convert? Personally, I'd back right off the issue if some bonehead started such things....

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764588 -

ToiletDuk said:
Ancalagon said:
ToiletDuk said:
Nope. The ends do not justify the means. Now about my question..



You're still missing it completely. My question is not whether you would support this group -- who the fuck in their right minds would? My question is whether you'd be able to support their cause, assuming it is just, in light of the fact that they are doing some horrendous things in the name of that cause. If there's anyone here who can think of a more eloquent way to put this so that we can move on with the debate, please help me out -- I'm not having much luck.



Er...again no. The ends do not justify the means. Sorry to hold things up for you...



I can't for the life of me see what means have to do with anything -- I'm not asking you to lend your support to means, I'm asking if a certain group took certain actions (that you disagree with) in the name of a philosophy (that you agree with) could you still hold those beliefs. I'm asking, essentially, if you can share beliefs with someone even if you disagree with how to go about achieving those beliefs. I'm a libertarian. If some guy went out and started machine gunning government employees in the name of libertarianism I sure as hell wouldn't throw up my hands and go "well...no way I can share a belief system with this nutjob, maybe I'll try out socialism..." I'd simply renounce this idiot's practices and advocate more tolerable means of getting what I want. I think SS's analogy relating to the war on drugs is very good (wish I thought of it) -- could you still favor ending this idiotic prohibition if some guy out there was bombing post offices to try to make his case?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764610 -

ToiletDuk said:
Paradigm said:
He is not saying the ends justify the means. Please read what is written. He is saying that in some cases, the demands of terrorists are things which should be done anyway, and that to refuse to do them simply because the terrorists have demanded it is counterproductive. If terrorists demanded that the US legalize marijuana, should we then keep marijuana illegal simply because we do not negotiate with terrorists? Personally, I would prefer that we legalize marijuana anyway, and then prosecute the terrorists who were making the demands.



Well, where do you draw the line? If people started suicide attacks on behalf of marijuana legalisation, would that not alienate (to put it mildly!) those whom they were trying to convert? Personally, I'd back right off the issue if some bonehead started such things....



Forget the political ramifications. Obviously it's not PC to share beliefs with nutjobs like that. The question is, would your fundamental beliefs be altered because you just can't stomach having the same opinions as this guy. Could you seriously see yourself saying "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!"?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764641 -

ToiletDuk said:
Paradigm said:
He is not saying the ends justify the means. Please read what is written. He is saying that in some cases, the demands of terrorists are things which should be done anyway, and that to refuse to do them simply because the terrorists have demanded it is counterproductive. If terrorists demanded that the US legalize marijuana, should we then keep marijuana illegal simply because we do not negotiate with terrorists? Personally, I would prefer that we legalize marijuana anyway, and then prosecute the terrorists who were making the demands.



Well, where do you draw the line? If people started suicide attacks on behalf of marijuana legalisation, would that not alienate (to put it mildly!) those whom they were trying to convert? Personally, I'd back right off the issue if some bonehead started such things....



There is no line to be drawn. A justified position like marijuana legalization remains justified regardless of who advocates it. If the terrorists demand something unjust or irrational, like the implementation of Shariah law in America, then we can remain defiant of such demands.


--------------------

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764669 -

Ancalagon said:
ToiletDuk said:
Paradigm said:
He is not saying the ends justify the means. Please read what is written. He is saying that in some cases, the demands of terrorists are things which should be done anyway, and that to refuse to do them simply because the terrorists have demanded it is counterproductive. If terrorists demanded that the US legalize marijuana, should we then keep marijuana illegal simply because we do not negotiate with terrorists? Personally, I would prefer that we legalize marijuana anyway, and then prosecute the terrorists who were making the demands.



Well, where do you draw the line? If people started suicide attacks on behalf of marijuana legalisation, would that not alienate (to put it mildly!) those whom they were trying to convert? Personally, I'd back right off the issue if some bonehead started such things....



Forget the political ramifications. Obviously it's not PC to share beliefs with nutjobs like that. The question is, would your fundamental beliefs be altered because you just can't stomach having the same opinions as this guy. Could you seriously see yourself saying "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!"?



Sorry - I just got up so I can't give three page answers to everything just yet. Be that as it may, as to the question "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!?". No probably not, but I would despair of ever seeing it legalised in my lifetime, thanks to the suicide bomber...

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764705 -

ToiletDuk said:
Sorry - I just got up so I can't give three page answers to everything just yet. Be that as it may, as to the question "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!?". No probably not, but I would despair of ever seeing it legalised in my lifetime, thanks to the suicide bomber...



Many good things in history have come from regrettable circumstances. I doubt astronomers fret too much over the fact that most of our understanding of stars, cosmology, and atoms comes from nuclear weapons technology.


--------------------

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764708 -

I don't trust the judgement of marijuana smokers.

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764718 -

Quote:
Sorry - I just got up so I can't give three page answers to everything just yet. Be that as it may, as to the question "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!?". No probably not, but I would despair of ever seeing it legalised in my lifetime, thanks to the suicide bomber...



Well can I assume we're in agreement then on this point:

-The fact that a person or group holding a valid position attempts to bring about that position through disgusting means does not mean the position is now universally invalidated.

Agree/Disagree?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4764719 -

Los_Pepes said:
I don't trust the judgement of marijuana smokers.



And I don't trust the judgement of people who go to drug-related forums for the purpose of trolling drug users.


--------------------

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4764786 -

Ancalagon said:
Quote:
Sorry - I just got up so I can't give three page answers to everything just yet. Be that as it may, as to the question "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!?". No probably not, but I would despair of ever seeing it legalised in my lifetime, thanks to the suicide bomber...



Well can I assume we're in agreement then on this point:

-The fact that a person or group holding a valid position attempts to bring about that position through disgusting means does not mean the position is now universally invalidated.

Agree/Disagree?




Depends. Y'all are comparing apples and oranges here. Remember, the thread was initially about Islamic extremists.....

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4764800 -

ToiletDuk said:
Ancalagon said:
Quote:
Sorry - I just got up so I can't give three page answers to everything just yet. Be that as it may, as to the question "you know, in light of what this douchebag has done Marijuana definitely should remain illegal!?". No probably not, but I would despair of ever seeing it legalised in my lifetime, thanks to the suicide bomber...



Well can I assume we're in agreement then on this point:

-The fact that a person or group holding a valid position attempts to bring about that position through disgusting means does not mean the position is now universally invalidated.

Agree/Disagree?




Depends. Y'all are comparing apples and oranges here. Remember, the thread was initially about Islamic extremists.....



It is not apples and oranges. It's a valid analogy. Our interventionist foreign policy needs to change regardless of whether the terrorists demand it. If it makes us safer by not inciting them to commit violent acts in the first place, that's an added bonus.


--------------------

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Re: A tangent continued... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4764830 -

Paradigm said:
If it makes us safer by not inciting them to commit violent acts in the first place, that's an added bonus.



Yes, but you see, amongst some, the fact that we don't have Islamic law is enough to incite them. Jeeze, some of them are still pissed about the retaking of Iberia by Xians 5 centuries ago...

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