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OfflinePhluck
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Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil.
    #4724207 - 09/28/05 08:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Everyone in the world tends to demonize the people who disagree with them. It's human nature to think that your school of thought is more morally correct and intelligent than that of those people who disagree with you.

However, when you believe in peace and treating people equally, letting this kind of thinking take over amounts to horrendous hypocrisy, and it is particularly rampant amongst hippy types. (Not that all hippies are like this, but the most dogmatic and self righteous tend to embody this kind of thinking).

An example: Someone new once posted something on the topic of belief, he had faith in some kind of mystical underlying current, and wrote something about it. I responded with my thoughts, which were in some ways quite opposed to what he believed, and he responded quite well. He countered with what he thought of my opinions, and said that I had some good points.

But then one of the hypocritical believers jumped in and warned him not to give in to the terrible, dark, colorless world of critical thinking and skepticism. Kind of the way you might warn someone who seemed to be considering joining the KKK or Al Qaeda.

Also: assuming that your faith and belief in certain morals means you are totally without flaws. Ie. I think it's wrong to treat others with any kind of derision therefore I never do it, even subconciously.

Some people aren't able to recognize their subconcious thoughts and actions exist, and tend to believe that they don't have any.

The people who take mushrooms for spiritual reasons tend to behave the same way, and do the same things while under the influence as reasonable people who take them "just for fun", but they spend more time telling people how they do the right thing and how others should think more like them. That's not spirituality, that's just arrogance.

Bragging about your spiritual skills. ("I am the serenest!"), talking about how your view of the universe is far more pure and accurate than that of others.

How often is spirituality nothing more than a slick, self aggrandizing veneer on top of human nature? Are you truly practicing your faith, or are you trying to prove to yourself and others that you are?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724246 - 09/28/05 09:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

funny becouse if i said i do won't that be just as arrogant of me?
i've found my self misjudging people and their way of life only to find out that i'm no diffrent... i hold back doing anything so it can't be said i'm doing something wrong when actualy all there is to life is making choices as best as you can and taking the responsibilety that comes with said choices

i don't know about others but i think i'm my worst critique and my ideals are so far from my reality it's hard for me to live like that
but i'd rather have high ideals then a "simple life"...

and by all means "let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil"! :wink:


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724395 - 09/28/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Are you truly practicing your faith, or are you trying to prove to yourself and others that you are?




Being of imperfect nature I would have to answer. Yes and Yes. :wink: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Simisu]
    #4724404 - 09/28/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Probably would be...

People just so often feel that spirituality represents a kind of nobler and more open way of looking at the world around them. That by having faith in something they are thinking more deeply and experiencing more fully. Yet they fall prey to the same closed mindedness and human errors as anyone else. They aren't necessarily happier or filled with more creative ideas.

There's a common belief that if you don't have faith in something, your life must be a boring routine, and that you couldn't possibly be having the same rich experiences that people with faith have.

People often tie their faith into their most intense moments, so they assume that they couldn't have one without the other. They don't realize that even someone who thinks that the idea of god is silly and that there's no need to assume that things that cannot be proven whatsoever are true can have just as exciting and creative a life as they do.

It's kind of like the people who, whenever they see a piece of weird or inventive art, assume that the aritist HAD to be completely blitzed on LSD to even think of that, when in reality the guy may have never touched any illegal drugs, and spends most of his life in an alcoholic stupor (which, of course, many of the psychedelic fans claim stifles creativity and open thinking).

Creativity, openness, kindness, and having unique perspectives has little connection to what drugs you take, what kind of things you have faith in, or your political beliefs.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724408 - 09/28/05 10:45 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724415 - 09/28/05 10:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"I am the serenest!"



:lol:

Quote:

How often is spirituality nothing more than a slick, self aggrandizing veneer on top of human nature? Are you truly practicing your faith, or are you trying to prove to yourself and others that you are?




maybe i don't get your post, but what exactly is wrong with finding things that gratify one's ego?


--------------------
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724439 - 09/28/05 10:53 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

... but they spend more time telling people how they do the right thing and how others should think more like them. That's not spirituality, that's just arrogance.




Although i believe you're right regarding the arrogance of some trippers, i also believe not only spiritual trippers fall under this category. You don't need to be a spiritual tripper to feel connected with reality and believe you are the bearer of the truth. IMHO, spiritual trippers, due to the principles of their nature, tend to have a more profound relationship with some concepts, that same concepts such as god, spirit, higher beings etc, that skeptics trippers simply don't have or don't believe.

I've had some spiritual trips that changed the way i look at things. Many shroomerites were with me the last time i had one of those trips, only one person had a spiritual conversation with me which also shared similar beliefs. Maybe because i really am an INFJ, i don't tend to talk about this subject with many people during a trip. But when i was in the field with those guys i really wanted to tell them how blissful, contemplative and reassuring my trip was flowing. I didn't maybe because i respect their views and i don't need to impose my inner tripy world to others.

You did generalize on your statement, now you got an exception :wink:.

MAIA


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724456 - 09/28/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I try, as much as possible, to have a "live and let live" policy towards others' lifestyles. That doesn't mean I won't question their ideas, but I try not to judge them for having them. I was recently saying something to someone about frat guys, and the person I was talking to was asking if I dislike those kinds of people. My answer was no. I believe that they have their own path in life to follow, and it's not for me to judge what makes them happy. I may prefer not to associate with certain types of people, simply because we have conflicting personalities, but in no way does that correlate to disliking them or looking down on them. I prefer just to follow my own path and discover my own spirituality, and maybe I can set an example for others. But I will not judge them for following a different path, so long as they don't harm others.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4724482 - 09/28/05 11:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4724484 - 09/28/05 11:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

actualy my "faith" is to have no faith!
everything just IS and every single thing is unique... just too bad it's VERY hard to precive it in my day to day life

i totaly agree with you and i hate seeing that kind of attitude with people
and as far as practicing my none faith... i do my best to be open to everything and everyone around me but most often i can't help who i am and my fear/outomated reactions that i adopted for some unknowen and probably unjustefied reason take over my better judgment and i might become what you describe...
but the goal is to be free of all judgment and misconseptions and let whatever is in there come out and to take all that's out there inside for real avaluation and consideration

all that sounds nice but none of us will ever be perfect the way we wish to be... but we have to do our best to live like we think we should! to "be the change" and not think it!

nice post!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Simisu]
    #4724502 - 09/28/05 11:14 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: It's always so refreshing to hear someones simple, balanced and honest assessment of themselves. It restores my faith in human nature and possibility. Thank you. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: MAIA]
    #4724527 - 09/28/05 11:20 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

IMHO, spiritual trippers, due to the principles of their nature, tend to have a more profound relationship with some concepts, that same concepts such as god, spirit, higher beings etc, that skeptics trippers simply don't have or don't believe.

Well, define "profound". Everyone's experiences are going to be vastly shaped by how they see the world around them, and someone who believes in god will incorporate that belief into their experiences. Someone who doesn't may have an equally rich and rewarding experience, it just will focus on different concepts.

If you're saying that your trips are more profound than those that a skeptic would have, well, that would be arrogance. I'm not sure that's what you're saying though.

Spiritual people may just be trying to attach explanations to experiences that we all have. A skeptic could easily be having equally intense and mind boggling arrays of emotions, ideas and perceptions, they just might not assume that these experiences are "profound" or intimately connected with the darkest mysteries of the universe. ie. "It feels like the universe imploded in a massive vacuum of intense force compressing down to a single point right in the middle of my brain." vs. "The universe did implode in a massive vacuum of intense force compressing down to a single point right in the middle of my brain."

I don't think I was generalizing, I don't think all spiritual people are arrogant like that and I didn't say I did. I don't think you're an exception, you're just (probably) a nicer person than some. There are lots of people who don't act like that. HOWEVER, saying that you're an exception and that you aren't guilty of arrogance is a little bit arrogant. We all have all kinds of subconcious impulses and often act on them without realizing it. I don't think there's anyone who isn't guilty of doing selfish things or acting in a self centered manner without being fully aware of it. Part of my point is that if you assume that you've succeeded in being a good person simply because you're trying to, then you're almost definitely overlooking things. I've met a LOT of people who are arrogant and self centered that spend a lot of time talking about how noble and selfless their beliefs are.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4724531 - 09/28/05 11:22 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I'd like to point out that faith comes in many forms.

I have a curiosity in things that haven't been answered since forever.

faith seems to be a belief in something that really can't be proven. I prefer to consider my "faith" if you must.. the faith that there are some things that can't be proven, and as a direct result are fascinating.

proof requires a question and an answer, along with all the work inbetween, I don't anyone has gotten the first two, let alone the latter.


--------------------
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: kotik]
    #4724611 - 09/28/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I prefer to consider my "faith" if you must.. the faith that there are some things that can't be proven, and as a direct result are fascinating.

Do you mean proven, or explained?

If something cannot be proven, then I'd think that believing in it would be in effect, closing your mind. Deciding that one answer, out of gazillions of possibilities is correct seems to me to be tossing the opportunity for tons of deep thought and exploration to be tossed out the window.

I also think it's unsafe to assume that certain things cannot ever be explained or proven. So many things over the ages have been considered unexplainable, yet eventually, we've been able to explain all kinds of new things. Certain people sometimes claim that trying to find explanations for things takes the magic out of them, but I think that's nonsense.

I don't know how many of you have seen the movie Melvin Goes to Dinner, but I recommend it. There's a part in the movie where the guy talks about going to a self help seminar, basically a thing where they were trying to convince people to go away for an expensive weekend retreat. The speaker stood in front of the room and said:

"Now I know some of you are sitting there thinking 'I don't need this, my life is going well, I have a good career, a good family, what could I possibly need this for?' Well, I'll tell you people something; You are the people who need this this MOST."

The guy telling the story goes on to say:

"The sad thing about this is that I know there were some poor suckers in the audience thinking 'That's me! I don't think I need this! They've got me pegged!'"

His point was that faith is a similar trick. It takes the weakest part of the argument for god, an afterlife, a mystical lifeforce, whatever, and makes it the strongest part of the argument.

"There's absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever!"

"Exactly! You MUST have faith. You have faith, and you will understand."

If you force yourself to believe, push and twist your mind into thinking a certain way, then it will seem like it's true. By making FAITH into a noble and important aspect of religion or spirituality, you turn the fact that there's no proof into the driving force behind why people believe.

Sneaky, no?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4724791 - 09/28/05 12:37 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Well, define "profound". Everyone's experiences are going to be vastly shaped by how they see the world around them, and someone who believes in god will incorporate that belief into their experiences. Someone who doesn't may have an equally rich and rewarding experience, it just will focus on different concepts.

If you're saying that your trips are more profound than those that a skeptic would have, well, that would be arrogance. I'm not sure that's what you're saying though.





I do agree with you, an experience can be "profound" be it by believers or be it by skeptics. If you read my phrase it says "profound relationship with some concepts", i'm not stating believers have a more "profound" experience, i referring to the concepts which differ from skeptics.

Quote:

I don't think you're an exception, you're just (probably) a nicer person than some. There are lots of people who don't act like that. HOWEVER, saying that you're an exception and that you aren't guilty of arrogance is a little bit arrogant.




My point is, you stated most spiritual trippers are arrogant. I have experienced spiritual trips and i take them inward, i don't expose my thoughts and beliefs like you say some arrogant people do. If you consider spiritual trippers are arrogant as a rule of thumb, then i'm just stating that i have spiritual trips and i behave the same way when i have non-spiritual trips, without any arrogance at all.

IMHO what i am is irrelevant to the discussion, what matters when tripping is what we feel. Both skeptics and believers have feelings like anyone else, either you believe in god and his creation or in einstein and his theory, we all feel love, compassion, joy and bliss.

I have experienced a sense of unity with the universe through a feeling of connection with a higher consciousness beyond any reason, but also, i have had this feeling by meditating on the atomic structure of the universe. Both profound, both knowledgeable and both universal.

My last trip, with all that different people from all over Europe, made me realize a new concept of respect. I visualized a golden seal, the seal of respect, where all differences were behind it with a purpose. That purpose is the vast unity of the whole, where the different concepts of this reality was dilute into a single one, and that single concept is love :heart: . That doesn't mean we have to end with our differences, no, that's what makes us unique. That means the differences have a golden purpose of unity through inner evolution towards love.

MAIA


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: MAIA]
    #4725024 - 09/28/05 01:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)


My point is, you stated most spiritual trippers are arrogant.


I did? Where? I think you misinterpreted what I said, I don't think I said any such things. Everyone is a bit arrogant, of course, but some people do it in such a way that they actively look down on others and accuse people with opposing beliefs of all kinds of negative traits.

My post isn't really about tripping, either. It's about a kind of hypocrisy or bigotry that sometimes comes out of people who consider themselves spiritual. The idea that non spiritual people are somehow bland or morally corrupt, or that their spirituality automatically makes them good people.

I don't see what I said that makes you think that I said all or most spiritual trippers are like that. Naturally, all spiritual people, just like all non-spiritual people have a certain degree of arrogance.

i behave the same way when i have non-spiritual trips, without any arrogance at all.

Claiming to be above that, and saying that you don't exhibit any arrogance whatsoever is, well, arrogant in itself. Part of my point is that human nature happens despite the fact that we try hard to avoid it. Knowing that something is wrong, and deciding not to do it doesn't mean that you won't still be guilty of such mistakes now and then. Arrogance is not something that you can just flick a switch and turn off. I would be extremely suprised if you didn't have any arrogance at all.

I have experienced spiritual trips and i take them inward, i don't expose my thoughts and beliefs like you say some arrogant people do.

I don't think arrogance is necessarily an outward thing. People can be quietly and personally arrogant.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4725059 - 09/28/05 01:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

I have experienced spiritual trips and i take them inward, i don't expose my thoughts and beliefs like you say some arrogant people do.

I don't think arrogance is necessarily an outward thing. People can be quietly and personally arrogant.




the question is wether you think your spiritual trips (or life style) are "truth" and should be excepted by all as such or merly what YOU belive in and your direct expiriance alone?

BTW thanks for the feedback icelander


--------------------
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Edited by simisu (09/28/05 01:44 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Simisu]
    #4725075 - 09/28/05 01:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

That raises some questions.

If you personally believe something, yet you feel that others may believe different things and be equally right, do you truly believe?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4725145 - 09/28/05 01:58 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

edit:
that was a stupid sentence...
i should've said this...

i trule belive that both attitueds are right and it only depends on your point of viwe... often though i'd rathar stick to my point of viwe then anothers!


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Edited by simisu (09/28/05 02:00 PM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Let's torture and kill the human cesspools that spread evil. [Re: Phluck]
    #4725494 - 09/28/05 03:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I did? Where? I think you misinterpreted what I said, I don't think I said any such things. Everyone is a bit arrogant, of course, but some people do it in such a way that they actively look down on others and accuse people with opposing beliefs of all kinds of negative traits.

My post isn't really about tripping, either. It's about a kind of hypocrisy or bigotry that sometimes comes out of people who consider themselves spiritual. The idea that non spiritual people are somehow bland or morally corrupt, or that their spirituality automatically makes them good people.

I don't see what I said that makes you think that I said all or most spiritual trippers are like that. Naturally, all spiritual people, just like all non-spiritual people have a certain degree of arrogance.





I probably got it wrong... So do you mind explaining more clearly the quote bellow:

Quote:

The people who take mushrooms for spiritual reasons tend to behave the same way, and do the same things while under the influence as reasonable people who take them "just for fun", but they spend more time telling people how they do the right thing and how others should think more like them. That's not spirituality, that's just arrogance.




As i see your argument
Subject: "The people who take mushrooms for spiritual reasons"
Action : "they (The people who take mushrooms for spiritual reasons) spend more time telling people how they do the right thing and how others should think more like them. That's not spirituality, that's (what they, the people who take mushrooms for spiritual reasons, are) just arrogance"

Quote:

Claiming to be above that, and saying that you don't exhibit any arrogance whatsoever is, well, arrogant in itself.




So i have the same outcome for the two only logical choices:
1) State that i am arrogant -> I am considered arrogant because i stated i am arrogant.
2) State that i'm not arrogant -> I am considered arrogant because i stated i'm not arrogant.

Any idea on how i can stop being arrogant ?  :crazy:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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