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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
What is your view of human nature?
    #1418560 - 03/30/03 06:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have been thinking about why we all disagree and I think that part of the reason for disagreement about war/politics etc is due to our basic views on human nature. I personally think that humans left to their own devices are inherently evil. What do you all think? Are we basically good or are we basically evil?


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1418804 - 03/30/03 08:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

human beings are good by nature. the devices of man have corrupted this view. in our purest sense what do we want? love, peace, family....the foundations of gov't have made people believe they can't achieve this without structure. the very structure that limits human growth are defined in gov't. if you can imagine a world where everyone lives in peace without gov't, what would there be to fight for?


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1418818 - 03/30/03 09:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say we're shaped through nurture. I'd say there's a ying n yang of good n evil.
Then again only the strong shall survive and what does that take and what does that make that person?


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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1418887 - 03/30/03 10:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think humans are neither basically good nor basically evil. The concept of good or evil requires a free will to make choices with the capacity to be cognizant of the outcome and how it affects our fellow human beings. I would not consider a jaguar which killed and ate a human to be evil, but if another person were to engage in this behavior I would consider him to be evil.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1419011 - 03/31/03 12:19 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It's this line of black and white thinking that's gotten us where we are today.

Humans are neither "basically" good nor evil.

The choice is ours.
Acknowledging personal responsibility for one's own actions is all-important to the success of the species.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1419117 - 03/31/03 01:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This would probably be more appropriate in the Spirituality & Philosophy Forum, but anyway, I'm not sure I really believe there is a "human nature," unless by that you mean our instincts like the desire to eat, drink, and breed. As for whether it is good or evil, I think we need to move, as Nietzche said, "beyond good and evil." They are entirely subjective terms. Basically, we all have our own vision of how things are and how they should be, and we struggle from day to day to bring that vision to others, sometimes forcefully.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1419130 - 03/31/03 01:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I generally belive that people are good, but that's from my biased anthropocentric point of view.
Imagine how potential observers could see us. We are destroying each other, the earth & even dream of conquering (fucking) the space and spread like a plague.

We are a pest, a space contamination.


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Offlinecherokee
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1419618 - 03/31/03 12:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think all people are born niether. Born with a fresh brain ready to begin imprinting, nothing more. If we are raised in a hostile enviroment the chances are more than likely we'll be "evil", vice versa for "good". But the interpetation of good and evil varries from person to person, ah the power of the ego. I was thinking the other day that brains are made up of lines. The line between good and evil, poor and rich. The line isn't exactly thin but more strung out, but when you cross the centerpoint you know. It's what decided if we had a good time or a bad time. When we're born the lines aren't drawn yet, childhood is for drawing them. Just some thoughts I've been toying with.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1419685 - 03/31/03 01:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Human souls are composed of love and light whose original nature is goodness and knows only that. When we add the physical element, we begin to experience polarities, and this love and light can become filtered, and blocked by negative energies such as fear, insecurities, which leads to violence, hatred, power, etc. All humans are inherently good with free will.


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Offlinejono
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Registered: 05/11/02
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1420194 - 03/31/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I am with shroomism on this one. I definitely believe that all humans are inherently good natured at heart. Everyone ultimately wants the same things in life, (happiness) and some people just end up with a twisted view on how to achieve it, which may cause them to end up committing evil actions.


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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1420195 - 03/31/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Good.. Evil.. .. ..hreremeroamusnitdaasnitdsrcuht...


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1420218 - 03/31/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Human nature is no different than animal nature (uh oh! - here comes Mr. Mushrooms!). It is all about survival; taking care of your basic needs and that of your family and tribe (sub-group). Co-operation is seen as being "good" while competition is generally viewed as "bad". Both are devices to ensure that you and yours get a big enough piece of the pie.

If there are insufficient resources for your tribe, then you either co-operate to gather/grow/ manufacture or acquire more. If there are limited resources or they are too difficult to get, then you steal them from another tribe. If there is no other tribe, then you steal from within the tribe.

The "rules" change depending on needs, resources, and viewpoint.

Remember that the "inherently good" homo-sapiens most likely made the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man extinct. Despite popular misconception, Neanderthal man had a LARGER cranium than homo-sapiens. This could very well indicate that we were not more intelligent, but simply more brutal in our quest for resources.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1420385 - 03/31/03 09:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i agree, i think we are inherently good, just we lose our perceptions, this maybe due to the fact that we haven't evolved and should have evolved already.

My thoughts on good and evil:

Maybe i just don't understand good and evil. They say it doesn't exist; is this because its based on perception? still,... isn't it a valid means of identification? i don't think mankind can throw away its meaning. So how exactly would describe the emotion of say evil?



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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1420636 - 04/01/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

They say it doesn't exist; is this because its based on perception?

Of course it is! Remember this axiom borrowed from Robert Ringer: "Good is what I do; bad is what you do."

Everyone rationalizes their actions. EVERYONE! Do you think Bin Laden believes that he is evil? Not at all. He has his reasons for 9/11. Does Bush view himself as evil when Iraqi children die from stray bombs. Not at all. He justifies their death.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1420698 - 04/01/03 12:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

a baby being spanked and crying and then slowly realizing its own existance, but fast forward only viewing the baby growing up into a small child grow up. watch it contort, watch it sprawl. im seeing many different scenes on the nature of humans. i see confusion, i see lack of that human realizing its own self, almost like it thinks its just in a dream. and i see that sometimes when this human doesnt look out, and doesnt keep going for what is true, and tries to deny the rights of others, or their ability to seek out and to exist for themselves. this is probably what the gross disortion we see, for whatever form the user wishes to make and to contort into.

i see this alluding to the reality is false post. for there are only facts right? and then their is stuff we dont know. :confused: :shocked: :laugh:


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What?


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1420794 - 04/01/03 01:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So how exactly would describe the emotion of say evil?




Pride in self, will in time lead to loss of meekness and wisdom or the true pride in the force . loss of this pure love leads to anger- to hate and eventually with the loss of wisdom and love the being becomes blind to all love but love of self, which is really hate because it is without wisdom, the bieng now feeds on its own self being a perpetual circle of hate , to proud to accept its wrong. This is the negative side of ego in a dualistic world. This is also what feeds the thought of evil.



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Anonymous

Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: Swami]
    #1421275 - 04/01/03 10:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You rang?  :grin:

Human nature is no different than animal nature

The difference between man and brute beasts is radical.

Remember that the "inherently good" homo-sapiens most likely made the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man extinct. Despite popular misconception, Neanderthal man had a LARGER cranium than homo-sapiens. This could very well indicate that we were not more intelligent, but simply more brutal in our quest for resources.

Entirely incorrect.  Studies have been done that show various cranial capacities in all three types.

Besides, I would never rely on so shaky a foundation as macroevolution for anything dealing with the nature of man.  There you will find the putative evidence the shakiest.

Back to the question: Are we inherently good or evil?

The first question is whether or not such concepts exist.  And the second question is whether or not they exist in stasis.

I view man as inherently evil but redeemable through grace.

Cheerio, 


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: ]
    #1421282 - 04/01/03 10:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Human nature is no different than animal nature

The difference between man and brute beasts is radical.

Nicely taken out of context. :smile: The nature of being self-serving and programmed for survival of self, mate, and offspring is quite similar. 


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: Swami]
    #1421296 - 04/01/03 10:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not at all.  I often interject truth where I see error. :smile:

But, you are right.  Those attributes seem to have a broad base among all DNA types.

Do you suppose that Rand and Ringer are right? :wink:

:grin: :grin: :grin:


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: What is your view of human nature? [Re: ]
    #1424574 - 04/02/03 11:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

this makes me think of it like an RPG game. people choose a path to be either "dark" or the "light" side. and in either case we as humans have certain experience points we can put our own personalities and "points" into. Weve been having a discussion simmilarily in my german class about the holocaust. how responsibility plays a role in such an event. We went over certain examples of like : a mother leaving her child because she knew that her child would die anyway. and i think the question arises here about what swami talks about as far as the nature of humans to be selfish and looking out...

but then you think... now wait... if everyone was so low and never stood up for their "tribe" or race a long time ago with predators around we would surely be killed. and a great example of this is like cro magnon Man. i dont know if this is the right time period but try and bare with me.... they had to stay together and they didnt worry about trying to fight off other humans. they knew they had to stick together, and it was only until shift of the earth that these things started to change and different tribes started to meet and rivalry for territory began. It makes you wonder how much of this is left in our society, and is this the contributing factor to our view of "evil".

but i think now adays it is imparative that we as humans not be split, especially now that we are so smart it is stupid for us to bitch at eachother, and fight when we could work together and Evolve and get the shit we need to get done and all be happy. thats my view anyway... But i think Mr. Mushrooms is right, you have to prove that there is some basis, which i dont think there is.

We right here have the choice to act accordingly to however we want... i think we just have to be aware of where the road can end, and be able to see those ends and steer away. and drive into the right direction.



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What?


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