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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Swami]
    #4506200 -

But how do you know?

You have proved nothing.


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β€œThe crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: zorbman]
    #4506201 -

How many years and thousands of posts here and yet we cannot get passed this basic concerning proofs?

The chi claimants cannot clearly define or measure chi, nor in any way show that it exists. I cannot disprove this any more than you can disprove that guardian angels guide my racquetball shots.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Swami]
    #4506319 -

Swami said:
If you have viewed this sport, you will notice it is all about brute striking power and wrestling/grappling skills. Nowhere is there any evidence whatsoever of any mysterious "chi". It is a test of strength, technique, skill, speed and endurance.
_________________________________________________________

Chi, to me, is required in each physical act we accomplish. It is life force. I spent alot of years practicing martial arts. Although I was an instructor in Non-classical Wing Chun, I never became expert at it because I did not work thorough all my fears. My flow would stagnate because of tension created by fear. Developing speed strength and endurance are developing chi in my view. Chi has physical, and psychological components to it.  It is developed thru physical and mental practice. For example I am a better fighter now then I was when I was in my best physical shape 20 years ago. I flow better and relax more because I have less fear of dying. This is enhanced Chi in my book. I saw a film once of the man who developed Akido. He was small and frail looking. He was surrounded by 8 Japanese police men with sticks who could attack him at random. They could not lay a finger on him. I couldn't believe my eyes. He seemed almost to float and I even  lost sight of him at least once while he was moving. He never exerted himself to my sight but moved fluidly and serenely. He was devastating. He had developed Chi to great lengths. He was a very spiritual man, who believed in harming no one. In my opinion his Chi was centered in love and so was great. But what about those 8 police men? They all had Chi also. The skills they brought to the fray was their Chi. We all use our Chi to the best of our abilities and in different ways. It is the force of our lives, physical and mental and spiritual. :heart:

Oh chi - wherefore art thou?



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Swami]
    #4506413 -

to me, chi is just a word. some call it a magical force or something, but to me its little more than physics. all good fighters use chi - correct stance, movement, exhaling forcefully as a strike is completed, manipulating pressure points - these are all traditionally chi tecniques, but they actually have pretty good physical explanations.

if you watch martial artists, you won't think 'wow, they're using chi!'; to someone inexperienced it will just look they are using strength and skill. the truth is that their skill is what would have been called chi techniques a few centuries ago.

the best places to see 'chi' being used are like pressure point fighting demos and stuff. people get knocked out with literally a tap of the hand, but this is quite rationally explainable. but in something like the UFC, where everything is done full speed and full power, you won't even notice stuff like this unless you've practiced a lot of martial arts yourself.

also, the people who really master the traditionally eastern styles wouldn't bother with something like the UFC. at the end of the day its a controlled ring environment and no where near as close to real combat as some would have you believe. even for me, and i'm hardly advanced in martial arts compared to some, i've lost interest in competition as i've progressed. competition doesn't just miss the point; it actually encourages the learning of inneffective techniques.

i use 'chi' in my martial arts practice constantly. i recognise it for what it is though, and its not some magical force. it is breathing, posture, anatomy, and technique.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (08/07/05 08:49 AM)

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Icelander]
    #4506427 -

Fedor Emelianenko! :evil:

I only know of him from two videos that no other than Skorpivo sent me, but man, that guy is fucking nuts! :grin: He seems to have quite the Zen aspect to him. :mushroom2:

It was also amazing to see him get dropped on his neck by that black guy in a manner that would have killed lesser men, and not only that, but then to turn around and win... :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4506541 -

There will always be those who denounce current MMA fighters as having no skill, just barbaric strength and aggression. Since the beginning of the UFC some 15 years ago, the sport has so radically altered the way we perceive hand to hand combat that styles that many of those eastern martial arts that used fancy choreography to show its effectiveness have been laughed off the stage of realistic combat. This is truth and not even debatable.

Just because there are no crane kicks and fancy jump kicks like in kung-fu doesn't take away from the skill and precision that is used in the sport. Boxers, wrestlers, and submission experts spend years upon years practicing on live opponents and hence have a realistic approach to what a fighting person feels like.

The arguments against MMA's effectiveness are pretty typical. It usually is composed of those who don't compete, don't go through the excruciating path of strength and conditioning, and finally lack the courage to face an opponent whos goal is to do your body harm.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: looner2]
    #4506553 -

I agree. These fighters have tremendous skills. I became disillusioned by martial arts after studing tradional styles. They all suppose your opponnent to fight by rules of tradition. They fare pooly in the street.

I looked hard to find a non-traditional style, (Bruce Lee, developed the non-classical Wing Chun style I learned and taught.)  I was a better fighter in 3 months than in 7 years of kata, and training in traditional styles of karate. We were required to fight full contact (with some equipment).  I learned so much there. I also learned what is worth fighting for and what is not. We would have classes where we discussed human psychlogy and how our emotions could cost us dearly or help us.  We studied self hypnosis and used it to develope attitude. It was very cool. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: looner2]
    #4506562 -

but the fact remains, its a competition, a specific scenario with rules. its not real combat. the UFC fighters are fucking good fighters, but they're not in real fights.

a lot of the old eastern styles have been massively exagerated and misrepresented over the years. if you look at say, kempo or jujitsu as they were a few hundred years ago, they look a lot like MMA, only with more variety. strike -> throw/takedown -> break limbs/kill, the basic method remains the same. the difference is the old arts have a lot of highly lethal moves that wouldn't be permitted in UFC, and a lot of moves that simply aren't needed in UFC because of its simple controlled nature. a flying kick for example, may be useless in the ring, but its far from useless when someone is charging at you on a horse.

jujitsu, for example, was designed for a freaking battlefield where hundreds of people are charging around with lethal weapons trying to kill eachother. kempo/karate was meant to allow an empty-handed farmer to beat an armored warrior. as you can see, these situations are very different from the controlled one-on-one ring fighting. gracie jujitsu and MMA are designed for one-on-one ring fighting, and surprise surprise, they are very effective in a one-on-one ring scenario.

why aren't police and special forces taught UFC style grappling? because its not reliable in real combat situations. you don't want to go down when there's more than one potential opponent around. weapons exist in real combat. there are no rules in real combat. also, not everyone is big muscley fucker. that's why police and spec ops dudes learn other stuff.

a martial art is only good for the situations it is designed for.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (08/07/05 10:18 AM)

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: alsey]
    #4506581 -

a lot of the old arts also assume the student is going to dedicate almost every hour of his life to the art. you cannot become proficient in these arts in a few years. besides, most of the instructors in the west don't even themselves understand the arts they are teaching. most karate schools for example, now teach what used to be lethal pressure point attacks as 'blocks'.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Swami]
    #4506617 -

"Agreed and that is why there are no old chi masters in the ring"

I would not make such a hasty judgement. Many, many martial arts practitioners engage in exercises such as Tai Chi and meditation. So, you cannot make a definitive judgement here. For the record my opinion on the subject is still forming, but I was impressed that I gained so much strength and flexibility from such a sissy exercise.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: alsey]
    #4506696 -

alsey said:
but the fact remains, its a competition, a specific scenario with rules. its not real combat. the UFC fighters are fucking good fighters, but they're not in real fights.

a lot of the old eastern styles have been massively exagerated and misrepresented over the years. if you look at say, kempo or jujitsu as they were a few hundred years ago, they look a lot like MMA, only with more variety. strike -> throw/takedown -> break limbs/kill, the basic method remains the same. the difference is the old arts have a lot of highly lethal moves that wouldn't be permitted in UFC, and a lot of moves that simply aren't needed in UFC because of its simple controlled nature. a flying kick for example, may be useless in the ring, but its far from useless when someone is charging at you on a horse.

jujitsu, for example, was designed for a freaking battlefield where hundreds of people are charging around with lethal weapons trying to kill eachother. kempo/karate was meant to allow an empty-handed farmer to beat an armored warrior. as you can see, these situations are very different from the controlled one-on-one ring fighting. gracie jujitsu and MMA are designed for one-on-one ring fighting, and surprise surprise, they are very effective in a one-on-one ring scenario.

why aren't police and special forces taught UFC style grappling? because its not reliable in real combat situations. you don't want to go down when there's more than one potential opponent around. weapons exist in real combat. there are no rules in real combat. also, not everyone is big muscley fucker. that's why police and spec ops dudes learn other stuff.

a martial art is only good for the situations it is designed for.


Yeah, I forgot those who spout that its not "real" combat and on the streets multiple opponents are all over the place!

Doesn't change the fact that MMA is as CLOSE as possible to real combat as you can get, and the techniques used are that require the most skill through repetition and sparring.

Eastern arts are really at a loss with trying to prove that they have something to offer. They get out-struck, out-wrestled, submitted, and beaten. But.... but if only they could employ their devastating eye-gouges that they have trained on invisible air demons for the past 20 years, they would rule the cage!


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4506698 -

Swami, you are better at arguing then most of these guys, but sometimes you miss the point intentionally.  I know it's fun to throw out some argument with a hole you put there yourself, and watch people miss it. 

Take this concept of Chi for example.  I think the right thing to say about it is that when it's developers made it, they had little scientific knowledge, but much knowledge of how the energy they were feeling, well, felt.  So, using what they felt, they designed a system to harness this energy.  This doesn't mean that this energy exists, only that it was the best way for these people to describe what they were experiencing at the time.  However, it continues to get results, because, a.) it works, and b.) any time you devote a large chunk of time to mindfully practicing something, you are going to get a lot of improvement.  This doesn't mean Chi energy actually exists, just that it is a useful illusion (the same way the value of currency is a useful illusion, or a concept of self is a useful illusion) that helps people grow and develop themselves.  There is an ontological error that often occurs when people go from "this is a useful illusion."  to "the thing that is a useful illusion exists in the real world as described by the system or tradition it is a part of."

Swami, you talk about guardian angels helping your racquetball shots.  Well, lets look at it the same way.  If you were to spend time in prayer before your games to these angels, and develop techniques to encourage the angels to guide you, these techniques would likely improve your game.  This doesn't mean there are gaurdian angels are helpful, only that guardian angels are a useful illusion to better your game. 

Now, to address the issues in the ultimate fighting championship.  We could first of all say that there are other ways to talk about developing oneself physically and mentally for fights.  A kempo dude may be just as mindful and developed, but talk about his regime of energy focus in scientific, not chi, terms.  This doesn't matter.  It would be wrong to say this guy is focusing on chi energy and doesn't know it.  However, it would be correct to say that chi energy is useful because it encourages a certain type of mindfulness, and the kempo dude has developed this same kind of mindfulness via a different route, the same way you might develop it by focusing your meditations and trainings on gaurdian angels.  In each case, the chi, the guardian angels, and the scientific approach, we are dealing with the same root thing, a useful illusion that helps focus mindfulness.  All the fighters do share this, although the particular illusion they use to focus their mindfulness is different.

And you don't measure the results of a chi master by how well he or she does in a fight.  You can measure it by looking at the effects it has on their longevity, flexibility, posture, etc.  I know that chi works, because I can look at the way a chi master walks through a room, and thats all the evidence I need.  This isn't to say that Chi energy exists, but just that, as an illusion to help focus people, it works.

I think you already knew this and are being deliberately difficult.  :mad:


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"I am eternally free"

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: looner2]
    #4506854 -

looner2 said:
Yeah, I forgot those who spout that its not "real" combat and on the streets multiple opponents are all over the place!


not all street fights involve multiple combatants, i'm well aware of that. its just that some do, and a fighting style that trains you for one-on-one isn't going to save your ass in that instant when more than two people are involved. its not just the number of combatants either. its the environment as well, and the psychology. getting attacked out in the real world is very different to gearing yourself up for a fight with a known opponent.

in real combat, the person who has been attacked more often than not wants to get out of the fight. taking someone to the ground and grappling does not get you out of the fight. once you're on the ground, you're completely committed to the fight. you either win or lose. this isn't a problem in the UFC, because that's the whole damn point, but in the real world there are more than two options.

Quote:
Doesn't change the fact that MMA is as CLOSE as possible to real combat as you can get, and the techniques used are that require the most skill through repetition and sparring.


that's what everyone says, yet i've never seen a street fight that looked anything like an UFC fight, and i've seen my share of street fights.

Quote:
Eastern arts are really at a loss with trying to prove that they have something to offer. They get out-struck, out-wrestled, submitted, and beaten. But.... but if only they could employ their devastating eye-gouges that they have trained on invisible air demons for the past 20 years, they would rule the cage!


the old eastern arts were not meant for today's urban environment. that's what i was trying to say in my last post. but neither is gracie jujitsu designed for today's urban environment; it is designed for the ring.

i'm not stupid enough to try and argue that the old eastern arts are 'better' than modern MMA. i'm just pointing out what each style was designed for, and what it is effective for. in the ring, you want MMA. on the medieval battlefield, you want jujitsu. on today's streets, something like krav maga would probably be more effective since, guess what, it was deisgned for today's streets.

i'll say one more thing, and that's if i got into a fight in a bar or on the street where there are people around, going to the ground is the last thing i'd do. a throw, maybe, but a takedown is a last resort outside the one-on-one world.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: tomk]
    #4506856 -

Great point. It was the point I was alluding to in my post, but you expressed it so much better.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: alsey]
    #4506870 -

BTW, jujitsu, kempo etc, if practiced traditionally, would involved just as much full contact sparring and grappling as modern MMA. the reason today's popular schools don't teach the full contact sparring is because if they did, a lot of people would get either killed or maimed, which isn't acceptable in our society.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: alsey]
    #4506949 -

alsey said:
but neither is gracie jujitsu designed for today's urban environment; it is designed for the ring.


Not so, Gracie Jujitsu was refined in street fighting matches as well as in the ring. I took lessons from Rorion when he first moved to the U.S. and was giving classes in his garage (I think it was in Manhattan Beach), before the first UFC. The art was VERY practical, and very intensive (private lessons only) concentrating on attacks with knives, guns and clubs from the first lesson. Word of mouth in the law enforcement community was very big in getting a lot of his early students. If anyone's concerned about practicality of a martial art, it's cops. I do agree that one thing the art should have addressed more (IMHO) was handling multiple attackers.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4506956 -

Prosgeopax said:
Not so, Gracie Jujitsu was refined in street fighting matches as well as in the ring ... The art was VERY practical, and very intensive (private lessons only) concentrating on attacks with knives, guns and clubs from the first lesson.


ok, fair enough. change 'gracie jujitsu' to 'UFC style MMA' in my previous post then.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4506994 -

I would not make such a hasty judgement.

Judgement or observation? In competitive martial arts where everyone can see (not in a small dojo where stories are exagerrated to an extreme), the age of the participants follows roughly the same curve as in other highly physical sports with the best peaking in their late 20's to early 30's and with only a very few past their early 40's. This is called aging.

With the "theory of chi", this curve should be altered in favor of seniors as they have more time to develop this technique not bound to muscles. Of course, it doesn't happen.

You talk of personal experience as important; yet failed to tackle a single, direct, legitimate question about my experience in my sport. Why is that?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Swami]
    #4507096 -

Your "chi" deteriorates with your body.

The best explanation ever offered to me was that chi is simply your awareness of your surroundings coupled with your awareness and control of your body. More simply, I see you begin to tuck your left shoulder, move to dodge the inevitable right and counter with a knee to the stomach. The fighter with the strongest "chi" wins.

One thing often ignored that I don't believe was mentioned yet (though admittedly I haven't read the entire thread) is the relentlessness learned through MMA. Rather than waiting for an opportunity to use an effective form, mixed martial artists look for the slightest weakness, attack, and continue to do so until they are thrown off.


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Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.

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Re: Ultimate Fighting Championship [Re: Swami]
    #4507099 -

Your experience and mine are different as we are different people. I am not saying that you must master chi in order to do well at any sport, but if it works for one person...even as a placebo...then it works. I have seen a 45 year old Akido master fling two determined attackers around like they were weaklings. The attackers were NOT using martial arts, but street tactics. The defender was a sort of dumpy fat guy and he didn't even work up a sweat. This guy attributed much of his mastery to chi...and it was impressive. You think I am discussing magic, but I am discussing psychology.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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