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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda
    #4448637 - 07/24/05 11:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Hm....I don't know what to think about this article.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7706


Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda

13:46 21 July 2005
NewScientist.com news service
Rob Edwards


The US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 was meant to kick-start the Cold War rather than end the Second World War, according to two nuclear historians who say they have new evidence backing the controversial theory.

Causing a fission reaction in several kilograms of uranium and plutonium and killing over 200,000 people 60 years ago was done more to impress the Soviet Union than to cow Japan, they say. And the US President who took the decision, Harry Truman, was culpable, they add.

"He knew he was beginning the process of annihilation of the species," says Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University in Washington DC, US. "It was not just a war crime; it was a crime against humanity."

According to the official US version of history, an A-bomb was dropped on Hiroshima on 6 August 1945, and another on Nagasaki three days later, to force Japan to surrender. The destruction was necessary to bring a rapid end to the war without the need for a costly US invasion.

But this is disputed by Kuznick and Mark Selden, a historian from Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, US. They are presenting their evidence at a meeting in London on Thursday organised by Greenpeace and others to coincide with the 60th anniversary of the bombings.


Looking for peace

New studies of the US, Japanese and Soviet diplomatic archives suggest that Truman's main motive was to limit Soviet expansion in Asia, Kuznick claims. Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union began an invasion a few days after the Hiroshima bombing, not because of the atomic bombs themselves, he says.

According to an account by Walter Brown, assistant to then-US secretary of state James Byrnes, Truman agreed at a meeting three days before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that Japan was "looking for peace". Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.

"Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan," says Selden. Truman was also worried that he would be accused of wasting money on the Manhattan Project to build the first nuclear bombs, if the bomb was not used, he adds.

Kuznick and Selden's arguments, however, were dismissed as "discredited" by Lawrence Freedman, a war expert from King's College London, UK. He says that Truman's decision to bomb Hiroshima was "understandable in the circumstances".

Truman's main aim had been to end the war with Japan, Freedman says, but adds that, with the wisdom of hindsight, the bombing may not have been militarily justified. Some people assumed that the US always had "a malicious and nasty motive", he says, "but it ain't necessarily so."


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4448792 - 07/25/05 12:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It wouldn't surprise me. I see zero justification in the usage of nuclear bombs or arms. I feel all nations should disarm themselves, as far as nuclear-wise goes. Perhaps there's never going to be harmony between all countries. But with the current nuclear stockade between nations(US, China, India, Pakistan, etc.), what's the point of having them? "Duh." With the intent to use them, in self-defense. But the consequences of launching a nuclear bomb are far more than that and are mostly targeted at civilians. At least in the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nagasaki especially, which was seen as completely unnecessary and excessive by most accounts.

This sort of rationality escapes supposed modern first-world country leaders.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4449574 - 07/25/05 06:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

there are a lot of books/films/tv-shows/etc that discuss this issue. in my mind, there is no doubt that the main reason behind those bombs was to 'flex' to the USSR.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: Krishna]
    #4449626 - 07/25/05 07:00 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Anybody that claims that a single factor was the cause for using nuclear weapons at the end of WWII is incorrect. Unfortunately, life is not so simple.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: Seuss]
    #4449650 - 07/25/05 07:44 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

certainly there wasn't any one 'single factor'. however, in my mind, anybody who claims that 'the bombs were used to end the war. full stop.' is making an incredibly erroneous statement.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: Krishna]
    #4449694 - 07/25/05 08:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I suspect that people (in the know) using the line "the bombs were used to end the war" were using it to help ease their guilt. Although the bombs played a very large roll in ending the war, they really were not needed... the war was already over. In fact, the bombs really didn't end the war... it was a giant air raid (800+ bombers) by allied forces after both bombs had been dropped that ended the war... the Japanese surrendered before the last bomber landed. The bombs simply provided the Japanese Emporer with a honorable way out... at the expense of many, many lives.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: Seuss]
    #4450145 - 07/25/05 01:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I concur.

We had already destroyed over half the country with
our fire bombing raids.

The Japanese were trying to extend their surrender
to the US embassy for some time, but we had gone
silent and were not acknowledging.

Those two bombs were primarily dropped to show
the Soviets just what they were up against.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: afoaf]
    #4450693 - 07/25/05 03:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

We should have gone in with landing crafts instead of using the bombs. We would have killed 10 fold as many people and lost around 200,000 of our own. But we would not be the only ones that used nuclear weapons in war.


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Offlinephreedom420
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: downforpot]
    #4450735 - 07/25/05 04:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

And whats a quarter million more US servicemen lost in war to appease the peacenicks of 50 years in the future! I say we put down our guns in Iraq and only do hand to hand combat with them, even if a million US soldiers die bcause of it, man we'll look so cool in hte future!


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Offlinephreedom420
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: phreedom420]
    #4450773 - 07/25/05 04:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.warbirdforum.com/hirodead.htm

I don't want to risk a half a million US troops over 200,000 Japanese. They started the whole thing, after all.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4450800 - 07/25/05 04:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 was meant to kick-start the Cold War rather than end the Second World War




two birds, one stone.


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: afoaf]
    #4450834 - 07/25/05 04:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

We offered them a total surrender, which they made a counteroffer to. Their refusal to meet the terms meant the bomb was dropped.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: Seuss]
    #4450883 - 07/25/05 04:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
I suspect that people (in the know) using the line "the bombs were used to end the war" were using it to help ease their guilt. Although the bombs played a very large roll in ending the war, they really were not needed... the war was already over. In fact, the bombs really didn't end the war... it was a giant air raid (800+ bombers) by allied forces after both bombs had been dropped that ended the war... the Japanese surrendered before the last bomber landed. The bombs simply provided the Japanese Emporer with a honorable way out... at the expense of many, many lives.




Although the Twentieth Air Force's bombing raids on the day/night of august 14th especially those which destroyed the Nippon Oil Refinery may have further persuaded the Japs to surrender, Hirohito had already made his decision to accept the Byrnes note the morning of august 14th. Hirohito asked the SWC to draw up a rescript for him to read to all of Japan. The proposed rescript was accepted by Hirohito and was recorded that afternoon. During the night the coup began.

In the morning the coup was crushed by General Tanaka and Horohito then read the rescript at noon. So you are wrong about this bombing raid having anything big to do with their surrender. I say big because there is a very slight chance that maybe if this raid didn't occur the coup could have been successful. Of course i have no evidence for this and am just speculating for your sake. I suspect that The Allied leaflets describing the exchange of notes(the terms of surrender from aug10 and then the brynes reply) dropped on the morning of aug 14th had a much much much larger effect than any of the bombs dropped that same day.

The nukes needed to be dropped for two very important reasons: 1. to end the war without need of a mainland invasion and 2. To prevent the USSR from overtaking as much land as possible in the pacific. Flexing muscle to the USSR was just a side effect that ultimately can be argued as being either positive or negative.

And about the moral argument and lives lost..... we killed more people fire-bombing tokyo in august 1945 than dropping the a-bomb on Hiroshima. Both were necessary evils.

If you want to learn about how and why Japan surrendered i suggest you read "Japan's Longest Day" by The Pacific War Research Society.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: Redstorm]
    #4450917 - 07/25/05 04:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
We offered them a total surrender, which they made a counteroffer to. Their refusal to meet the terms meant the bomb was dropped.




The Potsdam Proclamation was made on july 26th which called for the unconditional surrender of the japs but did allow for the emperor to maintain a wholly ceremonial role. This offer was ignored by the SWC and thus nothing was ever sent to the allies. However, PM Suzuki told reporters that the SWC would ignore the Potsdam Proclamation. This was interpreted by the allies as a refusal of the Potsdam Proclamation and then on aug 6th little boy was dropped.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: afoaf]
    #4450930 - 07/25/05 04:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
The Japanese were trying to extend their surrender
to the US embassy for some time, but we had gone
silent and were not acknowledging.





Completely and utterly WRONG. Read my last post in the Crazy chinese general thread to learn the truth about this.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: d33p]
    #4450954 - 07/25/05 04:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We offered them a total surrender, which they made a counteroffer to. Their refusal to meet the terms meant the bomb was dropped.




The Potsdam Proclamation was made on july 26th which called for the unconditional surrender of the japs but did allow for the emperor to maintain a wholly ceremonial role. This offer was ignored by the SWC and thus nothing was ever sent to the allies. However, PM Suzuki told reporters that the SWC would ignore the Potsdam Proclamation. This was interpreted by the allies as a refusal of the Potsdam Proclamation and then on aug 6th little boy was dropped.




:thumbup:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4452313 - 07/25/05 09:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

what im about to say is admittedly far-flung..but i doubt that they meant to kick-start the cold war so much as soften the russians for an impending US invasion aimed at the siberian oil fields (BTW..the US and even canada did invade russia at the end of WWI)...in fact..gen leslie groves..head of the bomb project..himself..was quoted as saying that this was the case in the aug 1985 bulletin of atomic scientists (unfortunately..i dont have a link)...

my hunch..and this is strictly a hunch..is that the invasion of russia didnt happen because the war in the pacific for the manchurian oil fields had already been won..and truman was more or less banking on the situation in china resolving in favour of the pro-US KMT.. this would have clearly been preferable to starting a new war against an ally...but the communists won in china..and by then the russians already had their own nukes...


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Re: Hiroshima bomb may have carried hidden agenda [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4477078 - 07/31/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Here's an excellent and detailed discussion of the situation centered on the enormous quantity of radio intercepts available to Truman at the time. I have excerpted a very small part of it below, but it really is necessary to read the whole thing to grasp the significance pf the excerpts.

From http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/894mnyyl.asp?pg=1

"The critics share three fundamental premises. The first is that Japan's situation in 1945 was catastrophically hopeless. The second is that Japan's leaders recognized that fact and were seeking to surrender in the summer of 1945. The third is that thanks to decoded Japanese diplomatic messages, American leaders knew that Japan was about to surrender when they unleashed needless nuclear devastation. The critics divide over what prompted the decision to drop the bombs in spite of the impending surrender, with the most provocative arguments focusing on Washington's desire to intimidate the Kremlin."


*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

"There are a good many more points that now extend our understanding beyond the debates of 1995. But it is clear that all three of the critics' central premises are wrong. The Japanese did not see their situation as catastrophically hopeless. They were not seeking to surrender, but pursuing a negotiated end to the war that preserved the old order in Japan, not just a figurehead emperor. Finally, thanks to radio intelligence, American leaders, far from knowing that peace was at hand, understood--as one analytical piece in the "Magic" Far East Summary stated in July 1945, after a review of both the military and diplomatic intercepts--that "until the Japanese leaders realize that an invasion can not be repelled, there is little likelihood that they will accept any peace terms satisfactory to the Allies." This cannot be improved upon as a succinct and accurate summary of the military and diplomatic realities of the summer of 1945."



Read the whole thing.


Phred


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