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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4157964 -

Because, in this scenario, "you" are "your brain".

So if your brain/body dies, you die. If a brain/body is cloned from you, it is not "you" come back from the dead...it is a clone of you.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4157969 -

So what does it take for YOU to exist?

The continued existence of my brain/body. Once my brain dies, I am dead. There is no hope of bringing "me" back. "I" am not simply waiting somewhere to be reborn...."I" do not exist anymore.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
    #4157991 -

now we are getting somewhere...

think about this:
what is the difference between your brain, that is you, and another brain that is identical? Atoms are atoms, they are not marked with numbers, they are all the same, so there is no difference between a brain and an exact copy of it.

So how come YOU are a set of SPECIFIC atoms, and not any atoms arranged in the same way? How can consciousness be tied to specific particles?

What if I replace one atom in your brain? And another one, and another one, untill all the atoms are replaced..
By your defitinion you would stop existing after some times and your life would be continued by someone with your memory (because of same structure) but a different consciousness because it is not the same brain but a copy of the same brain

But I'd bet all my money that if I replaced all the atoms in your brain, one by one, you would still be you


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/10/05 02:54 PM)

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4158004 -

And here we enter the age old question of identity. What distinguishes us a few years ago from the us now if we have completely changed all molecules and cells in our body? What is consciousness? Is consciousness contained in the neurons of our brain? If so, when all the cells making up our consciousness are replaced, has the consciousness of one person in time been replaced by someone with a different identity, even if we call them by the same name?

I have no clue, nor do I believe there is of yet an answer to this question, but it is nevertheless the entire debate between you and Trendal.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4158013 -

Well, consciousness DOES NOT remain the same over the course of any given instant, let alone an entire lifetime. It is under constant flux, as the conditions of the brain change from moment to moment (and, in fact, MANY atoms are replaced on a constant basis).

"I" am this body, that I have here. If you cloned my brain/body, then that wouldn't be "me"...it would be (from MY point of view) another person who happens to look and act exactly like I do.

Likewise, from THEIR point of view...I wouldn't be them. I am a different person who happens to look and act exactly as they do.

So how come YOU are a set of SPECIFIC atoms, and not any atoms arranged in the same way?

"I" am the self-contained system of my brain/body. That does not mean that parts of my brain/body cannot be added/removed or replaced...as that MUST happen on a constant basis for my brain/body to survive. It's even possible that by the time I die, NONE of the atoms in my body would be the ones present at my birth. That doesn't mean I am a different person when I die.

I'm not trying to say that consciousness is the EXACT atoms and arrangement of atoms in a brain...consciousness is the SYSTEM of the brain.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
    #4158023 -

YOu are mistaking consciousness with person.
Consciousness is naked, it simply is a point of view from which you experience things, you are not the same person every day yes, but the you of yesterday wakes up every morning, changed yes, but it experiences the next day.

You will wake up tomorow as a different person, but your sense of yourself never changes becuase there is nothing to change about it, either you are aware of self or not.

I'm talking about this sense of self, a perspective, not a person as a whole.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4158045 -

Oh, well if you don't want to use the same definition of consciousness as I, there's no point in us debating at all.

Quote:
Main Entry: con?scious?ness
Function: noun

1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND
3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
4 : the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes




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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
    #4158060 -

I am using that definition, it is a state of being aware..
no matter how much you change as a person you are still in the exact same state of being aware, you are just aware of different things


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4158071 -

Yes, and that definition INCLUDES the "sense of self" that you seem to think is separate from consciousness.

I think they are one and the same.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
    #4158094 -

I don't think it is separate, the sense of self IS consciousness

What I'm saying is that consciousness/sense of self is not the same things as personality and memory


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4158120 -

What I'm saying is that consciousness/sense of self is not the same things as personality and memory

No, but your personality stems from your consciousness...and your memory is the working space your consciousness uses to function. They are not "the same"...but neither are they separate.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
    #4158171 -

maybe you are right, maybe my memory is giving me the illusion that I am the same consciousness while all the time my life has been driven by a whole number of consciousnesses all sharing the same memory, in which case I an almost nonexistant, and am as abstract as "justice" or "beauty"

this is what I am now trying to discuss in another thread


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4159397 -

Read "Count Zero" by Gibson.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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