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 OldWoodSpecter
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 artifitial afterlife 
#4156984 - 05/10/05 10:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Do you think it would ever be possible to create a complex machine that could somehow collect or transfer consciousness of those who die and make them live in a simulated virtual environment?
And I dont't mean a simple transfer with wires to a conputer memory, but an automated process that would make anyone end up there no matter how and where they die
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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 trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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That would, without supernatural intervention, require constant-surveilance by this complex machine of EVERY living person, so that it knows when they die and when to upload their consciousness.
That being said...check out some of the stories on OrionsArm.com sometime. Many societies in the world of Orion's Arm use a nanotech system called an "Angel-Net" where the entire living area of the atmosphere is filled with nano-bots. If a person dies, the nano-bots are able to instantly rush into the body and revive it.
They are also able to make frequent "backups" of their consciousness, so that if they die outside of the Angel Net their bodies can be cloned and have their most recent backup inserted.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157042 - 05/10/05 10:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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but that is exactly what I excluded in my post, not a manual individual uplink, but an antenna kind of a system that would just magnet every consciousness to it after death, fully automized.
Perhapse some sort of a super powerfull EEG-like devide that would scan every neural actuvity on one planet together with some kind of an automatic signiture system that would recognize brains as separate, such a system would record not only every brain activity on the planet but store patterns on which these activities are made
Or maybe, in case it is discovered that consciousness is some kind of a field generated by brain that is emiited from the body, it could be much easier to do it.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Of course for that to work we must assume that "consciousness" is separate from "body".
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157590 - 05/10/05 01:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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for the second scenario, but not for the first one...
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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but that is exactly what I excluded in my post, not a manual individual uplink, but an antenna kind of a system that would just magnet every consciousness to it after death, fully automized.
How would a consciousness leave the body and move to the "antenna" if it isn't separate from the body in the first place?
I expect uploading of a consciousness will require direct contact, possibly direct physical contact, with the body which holds the consciousness.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157654 - 05/10/05 01:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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In case consciousness is a product of matter/brain, then any collection of atoms (or whatever virtual substitute) arranged in the same way as the matter that produced the consciousness would result in that exact same consciousness
And antenna would only collect data to replicate a virtual brain
And I think this above is a good argument against consciousness being a product of matter, because in case you replicated two exact brains, they would have to have one consciousness, and I don't think that is possible.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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No, they wouldn't have "one" consciousness...just the same consciousness (at least to start out with, they would quickly diverge).
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157756 - 05/10/05 01:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no difference between same consciousness and one consciousness, think about it..
If consciousness is a point of view from which life is taking place, let's compare it to a camera angle that photographs a cube.
There can not be two same camera angles, because then they are one camera angles
Every consciousness is identical, because it has no qualities to be described it with, it's like a number, a point of view.
So two consciousness only differ because they are not one, they are not different because they have no qualities, they just are.
What makes my consciousness different from yours? ONLY the fact that
your's is your's and mine is mine, nothing else.
So the only way that your's and mine become the same consciousness is that they become one
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Sorry, by "same" I meant they would be two DISTINCT and SEPARATE consciousness', but that they would start out in the "same state".
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157793 - 05/10/05 01:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes, but that proves my point..
if in two identical brains there would be two consciousness that are separate then the brain can not make consciousness with its structure because the same structure made two distinct consciousness..
I'll use another example, easier to think about...
let's say your brain makes YOUR consciousness right now..
a year after you die, someone makes exact copy of your brain.
This theory of concsciousness would suggest that from YOUR point of view, you would just wake up in another brain because that second brain made YOUR consciousness.
But that can't be true, you would never experience the consciousness in the second brain, why?
Well, what if they made that same brain a year BEFORE you die?
Your consciousness would not be able to migrate into the second brain because YOU are alreay in your living brain.
Considering all of the above, it would mean that your consciousness is tied to SPECIFIC atoms in your brain, and not just any atoms arranged in the same patter, but how is that possible? Atoms are just atoms, they are all the same
I think this all is a good foundation for shaking the theory that brain produces specific consciousness
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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If you could have a machine where your consciousness is transferred into a virtual reality like this one but with much more freedom to create, essentially a paradise, I don't see the need for anyone who wanted to enter it to wait until they died. They could even slow down their perception of time until they were virtually immortal, or could explore the universe with no fear of dying.
I don't agree with making everyone end up there though. Some people don't want to go on living, whether it be in their body or in a machine, so to automatically make them experience an afterlife would be a travesty on their natural life. Not to mention, this machine could be abused to create a suffering and hell that would make all that has gone before seem like a small party. We could make people burn in hell for what feels to them to be all eternity, we could kill them over and over, we could cut out their eyes and disembowel them only to reincarnate them in the next yoctosecond. In short, with the corruption and cruelness all of humanity is born with, I would not support such a technology, nor would I support such a punishment for even the worse man who has ever lived.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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newjon
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157803 - 05/10/05 01:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think the idea of Foglets found in the masterpiece that is Transmetropolitan are probably the closest to what may one day be possible. It's not quite what you're talking about - it's more like immortality than an artificial afterlife.
A cloud of nanobots has the person's conscious imprinted onto them, so then the person becomes that cloud of nanobots.
Of course, we'd have to come up with a way of measuring/detecting/communicating with/transferring the conscious through technological means to do anything even close to that.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: Ravus]
#4157815 - 05/10/05 01:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
If you could have a machine where your consciousness is transferred into a virtual reality like this one but with much more freedom to create, essentially a paradise, I don't see the need for anyone who wanted to enter it to wait until they died. They could even slow down their perception of time until they were virtually immortal, or could explore the universe with no fear of dying.
I don't agree with making everyone end up there though. Some people don't want to go on living, whether it be in their body or in a machine, so to automatically make them experience an afterlife would be a travesty on their natural life. Not to mention, this machine could be abused to create a suffering and hell that would make all that has gone before seem like a small party. We could make people burn in hell for what feels to them to be all eternity, we could kill them over and over, we could cut out their eyes and disembowel them only to reincarnate them in the next yoctosecond. In short, with the corruption and cruelness all of humanity is born with, I would not support such a technology, nor would I support such a punishment for even the worse man who has ever lived.
What I was actually aiming at is not that humans use it, but
I was considering the possibility that our perception of afterlife that we mention in NDE experiences could In fact come from a technological solution made by some advanced civilisation rather than some supernatural beings and another dimension of existence.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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if in two identical brains there would be two consciousness that are separate then the brain can not make consciousness with its structure because the same structure made two distinct consciousness..
No. Two SEPARATE brains created two SEPARATE consciousness'.
If, in fact, these two SEPARATE consciousness' started out exactly the same...that would prove that consciousness is purely a product OF the brain.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157880 - 05/10/05 02:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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you seem to have a different idea of what consciousness is than I do, so this is not going anywhere
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/10/05 02:15 PM)
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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let's say your brain makes YOUR consciousness right now..
a year after you die, someone makes exact copy of your brain.
This theory of concsciousness would suggest that from YOUR point of view, you would just wake up in another brain because that second brain made YOUR consciousness.
But that can't be true, you would never experience the consciousness in the second brain, why?
Well, what if they made that same brain a year BEFORE you die?
Your consciousness would not be able to migrate into the second brain because YOU are alreay in your living brain.
If, for the sake of our argument, we are assuming that consciousness is a product of the brain...you can't use an argument such as above because it NECESSARILY assumes that consciousness is SEPARATE from brain.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157894 - 05/10/05 02:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't understand...
tell me your scenarion with the assumption consciousness is a product of brain, in that case, what would happen if after your death, someone recreated your brain
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
|
trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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If consciousness is a product of the brain:
BEFORE I die someone takes a "snapshot" of my brain's configuration (MUST be done BEFORE death...if the brain produces consciousness then consciousness will die when the brain dies) and stores this snapshot on a computer.
I die.
A few months later, whoever took the snapshot uses it to reconstruct a brain EXACTLY as mine was at that final snapshot, and places said brain in a cloned body. This person would start out exactly the same as I was when the snapshot was taken. This person is not "me", as "I" am already dead. Instead, this person is a "copy" of "me". They would quickly turn into something other than a copy of me, as their life experience would almost CERTAINLY begin to differ from mine the moment they are created.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: artifitial afterlife [Re: trendal]
#4157950 - 05/10/05 02:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes that person will be exact copy of your, but it will not be you, you are dead, you would never wake up as being him, he would wake up thinking he is you because he is same as you in the first moment, but you will never continue to live in him, you will not be aware of his life..
you are just proving my point again..
the exact structure of your brain failed to bring YOU back to life, so what's up with that? Why is that?
The second brain has the same structure as yours, but it didn't bring YOU back
So what does it take for YOU to exist? Obviously it is not a structure of brain
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/10/05 02:42 PM)
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