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OfflinePedM
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On Beliefs.
    #4031828 - 04/08/05 07:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There is a really bad attitude around here toward people who harbour any kind of belief, no matter how slight.  It seems that a lot of people who post in here go through every word of every post with this laborously critical lense, searching painstakingly for any kind of idea that might not yet have been repeatedly verified and finally "proven" through some kind of rigorous and "official" method.

And the prevailing thought is, "if someone has confidence in an idea that can't be verified, they are weak and need to be put down."  That is shameful and hypocritical behavior, because the only reason to criticize someone over their beliefs is to make one's self feel strong.  That in itself is a sign of weakness. 

Many, many people harbour beliefs because they derrive a feeling of comfort from them.  Fine.  Let them.  That is where they're at right now.  Why, through criticizing people with beliefs, do your exalt yourselves so highly?  Is it because you are trying to find the same feeling of strength and security that those you are criticizing are searching for with their beliefs?

All of us are better than that.  There is no reason to behave this way.  It destroys the value of any discussion by creating a competitive arena instead of an imaginative one.

So watch it!  Get your act together, or I might LEAVE!  That's right, all of you will have to get by on your own.. without ME!  :crazy2:


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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OfflineLux
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Ped]
    #4031884 - 04/08/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I have definetly picked up on what you are saying, though I do not see it as the dominant attitude. I believe even the most close-minded of skeptics can agree with and maybe even learn a couple of things from many ancient forms of spirituality, if only they scratched beneath the aesthetical surface and truly made an effort to understand it's sources. Unforunately some refuse to do that and perfer to find the bad in things instead of the good, the original sin instead of buddha nature. I wonder how differently these two exact same meanings would be taken if presented independantly.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Lux]
    #4031898 - 04/08/05 07:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"I believe even the most close-minded of skeptics can agree with and maybe even learn"

You equate skeptic with closed minded. A skeptic looks for the truth...no less or more. This does not denote a closed mind. Many devoutly spiritual people (most actually) have closed minds. Your own prejudice (closed mind) is showing. I am not attacking you, but consider your words in the light of what I just wrote.

Definition
"Skeptic: One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions."

That does not sound like someone with a closed mind, but one who seeks new paradigms...open minded.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineRetired
Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 635
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Lux]
    #4031903 - 04/08/05 07:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

everyone has their own beliefs and rock on to them, i also have them. when someone posts and asks for an opinion which i have noticed then the "critical lens" is acceptable because they asked for it. but i support what you are saying


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OfflineLux
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4031941 - 04/08/05 07:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Oh no, you misunderstood me completely. If you look at some of my other posts you will see that I absolutely advocate a degree of skepticism, as long as it does not get to the point where it becomes counter-productive. You made an assumpion in saying I equate skeptics with close-mindedness, I do not at all. I consider myself and anyone else truly in search of truth to be a skeptic by definition. When I said even the most closed-minded of skeptics that is all I meant, closed-minded skeptics. I could have just as easily said closed-minded spiritualists, which I do agree there are pleanty of, but the focus of this thread seemed, to me anyhow, to be on self-proclaimed skeptics.


Edited by Lux (04/08/05 08:01 PM)


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OfflineShagshow
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Lux]
    #4031961 - 04/08/05 07:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

To be a skeptic, in its pure form; or as the definition sets out, can be considered "closed minded." What we all would agree on I'm sure, is that we shouldn't follow blindly, and try to use what burden of proofs we do have and can rely on; a blend of fact and fiction in some cases.


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OfflineShagshow
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Shagshow]
    #4031965 - 04/08/05 07:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

replace fiction with "meta-physical"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Ped]
    #4031991 - 04/08/05 08:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe some of this comes from or is a kind of backlash result of some prevalent religions in this country telling folks if they don't believe that they will be punished severely. Also this Govt. in my opinion uses religion in spite of the supposed separation of church and state to control us.

That is not to justify but explain some attitudes. I don't think it's the prevalent attitude here. Just healthy skepticism for the most part.

Still I agree to a point. Some people just want to duke it out. But saying I'll take my ball and go home if you don't co-operate seems oddly threatening.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Ped]
    #4032448 - 04/08/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You have made so many assumptions that it is hard to know where to start. Let's try this one:

It destroys the value of any discussion by creating a competitive arena instead of an imaginative one.

We exist here today because our ancestors were?

A. Incredibly competitive.

B. Passive.


Let's try another example. The best know model of the physical cosmos is one that has been:

A. Based totally on imagination with no supporting facts and never challenged by evil skeptics.

B. An idea that has been thoroughly challenged, had portions trashed, has gone through numerous refinements, untold experiments and third-party verification.


The owner of a counterfeit coin shivers in terrible fear that his piece of gold-plated lead will be discovered. The owner of a solid gold sovereign has no such fear. ~ Gomp


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
Loc: The Symphony of Lights......
Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Swami]
    #4032463 - 04/08/05 10:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ya~ never know what is inside until you investigate it for yourself to see what is truly inside - past the shiney plating....  Perhaps sometimes you might be surprised that what you thought to be counterfit is actually real on the inside once you truly dig into, in your curiousity....?    :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4032469 - 04/08/05 10:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Usually, it is a dark chocolate under that gold foil disguised as a Spanish Dubloon. The Easter bunny brought me some.  :heart:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

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Chocolate Beliefs. [Re: Swami]
    #4032475 - 04/08/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds genuinely yummy....!    :grin:  :heart:


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OfflineLux
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Registered: 04/21/04
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Swami]
    #4032480 - 04/08/05 10:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well I do not believe your first example has any relevance to the value of discussion. Your second one, unless I am mistaken does not adequately reflect the two opposing modes of discussion in question. What I believe he is saying by competitive is more on an egotistical level. That is, attaching oneself to idea's to the point where they argue for the sole reason of proving themselves right simply to be superior. Or simply arguing to be superior regardless of idea's. While imaginative being simply the bouncing of idea's between one another for the sake of progressing information, though I could be off on both accounts. If that is the case however, then I would see B in the second example fitting into an imaginative as opposed to a 'competitive arena'.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Lux]
    #4032499 - 04/08/05 11:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well I do not believe your first example has any relevance to the value of discussion.

The apparent implication was that competitiveness is a negative or undesirable quality. There are too many real-world examples to counter this.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLux
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Swami]
    #4032533 - 04/08/05 11:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps it was, and I agree with your statement, but I believe he meant it specifically within the realm of discussion.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Lux]
    #4032622 - 04/08/05 11:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Even so, it is a mere contention that I do not agree with. No, not to be disagreeable, but merely stating something does not make it so. Have you ever been in a meeting surrounded by "Yes-Men"? Do you believe that is productive?

Ideas should compete just like creatures do, and may the strongest/fittest survive!


Edited by Swami (04/09/05 02:00 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Swami]
    #4032832 - 04/09/05 01:10 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"Ideas should compete just like creatures do and may the strongest/fittest survive!"

I, unlike yourself, harbor many ideas of a metaphysical nature, but I do not consider them to be graven in stone. I have studied world shamanistic traditions for many years now. I have learned that one of the tenets of shamanic tradition is that religion is uniquely personal, and based solely on individual experience. That is not individual "spiritual" experience I discuss, though all experience is spiritual, but the totality of all life experience. That means that ALL spiritual thought is intended to be dynamic by this standard. Being dynamic means being in a constant state of change. To cling to a spiritual belief in the light of logical error is self delusion and foolishness. One with a truly open mind is always looking for the new paradigm to open up before them. The seeker of spiritual truth clings to nothing, expects nothing, and questions everything. When an idea is outmoded for any reason, it is left behind. This strengthens the individual by removing the veil of illusion to reveal truth.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Ped]
    #4032955 - 04/09/05 02:03 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
There is a really bad attitude around here toward people who harbour any kind of belief, no matter how slight.  It seems that a lot of people who post in here go through every word of every post with this laborously critical lense, searching painstakingly for any kind of idea that might not yet have been repeatedly verified and finally "proven" through some kind of rigorous and "official" method.




I've never really noticed such a bad attitude, but I have noticed a handful of posters here speak of such a bad attitude, usually the ones that have their expressed ideas challenged in a manner that they do not see as preferable. :wink:

Quote:


And the prevailing thought is, "if someone has confidence in an idea that can't be verified, they are weak and need to be put down." 




I honestly cannot think of a single person who scrolls these threads in this forum with such a prevailing thought. I really do feel that this is more of a projection of your own instead of something readily apparent in these threads.

Quote:


Many, many people harbour beliefs because they derrive a feeling of comfort from them.  Fine.  Let them.  That is where they're at right now.  Why, through criticizing people with beliefs, do your exalt yourselves so highly?  Is it because you are trying to find the same feeling of strength and security that those you are criticizing are searching for with their beliefs?




I've never really encountered any frequent poster in this forum tell someone that they are foolish for having a belief. I've seen more than enough people challenge other people's beliefs, but I've never really seen anyone here "put down" the actual poster's worth for having such a belief. I feel that more people here challenge other people's beliefs in an effort to clear through misconceptions and arrive at the truth, in an effort to assist the person with that belief, perhaps.

I also like to consider that one cannot know another's intentions for posting, one cannot have privilege of another's thoughts. Their thoughts and their intentions stand distinct, at least in a relevant manner, from their posts and these threads as we each interpret these threads from our own subjective perspective. Not only this, but the main focus lies on the specific ideas, thoughts, and concepts that are being discussed here. That is what is being exchanged, that is where the interaction occurs, and that is the primary focus of this forum. We each add our own perspective and subsequent thoughts and ideas, and it is up to the individual to discern what they will from that.

Regardless of what attitude another posts in, regardless of what they are seeking from interacting here, it is up to us to gather what we will from that.

Just as we should let people harbor beliefs in order to derive from them a sense of comfort, as that is where they are at right now, we should also allow those who harbor certain competitive attitudes to harbor them. That is simply where they are at right now, eh? It does not destroy the value of discussion any more than those who habor beliefs out of the need for comfort, now does it? We are all at where we are at right now, and that is not the important thing, the fuckin' point is the idea exchange. People are going to post out of attitudes that you do not feel appropriate. That is beyond your control. Instead of knocking these monkeys in the head with your staff and scolding them for their naughty behavior, perhaps one could instead post from one's own idea of proper attitude, and thereby give them experience of words from a different perspective than their own. Influence their behavior by behaving yourself how you would wish for them to behave. Remember the main focus of our being here in the first place and take what you will from that. Attitudes will change on their own from one's interactions here if those interactions are apt for providing such a change. Feed these people, don't punish them. Etc. etc. etc. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4033004 - 04/09/05 02:25 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Nice balanced reply.  :thumbup:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: On Beliefs. [Re: Ped]
    #4033128 - 04/09/05 03:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:shrug:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=belief
be?lief    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (b-lf)
n.
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

~Yup, we're all guilty as charged.

It's not a bad thing, my goal is to learn from you, and hope that you learn something from me, I hope you don't see it as confrontational, however... if it is your belief that I am, :shrug: I can't change your beliefs, I can only hope to understand them. 

Trust me, it's a hell of a lot better then all of us patting each other on the back and agreeing with each other... their wouldn't be much of a forum if we were all doing such.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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