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Invisiblesilversoul7
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What's so bad about skeptics?
    #2630218 - 05/03/04 02:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People here seem to be labelled either "skeptics" or "seekers"(presumably short for "truth seekers"), but why can't a person be both? I would think that questioning things would be a more effective way of finding the truth than just believing in what we want to believe. I think the problem is people are too attached to their beliefs, and feel threatened whenever doubt is cast upon those beliefs. By questioning these beliefs, skeptics are raining on their parade. People want to feel that they have things figured out, and when a skeptic shows them how little they really know, they get frightened by their uncertainty, and take it out on the skeptic.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblebert
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630226 - 05/03/04 02:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Amen.

If you're not skeptical then you aren't really seeking truth. You're just looking for something to conveniently fill a hole in your belief system.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineLux
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630328 - 05/03/04 02:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's absolutely essential, I think, to be both. In fact, I would classify a 'seeker' as you put it as being both of these things. The one's who are 'seekers' in the context that you put it I would consider pathless, not 'seekers' at all. Again I'll borrow a quote which means a lot to me: "The destruction of faith is the beginning of evolution."

As for skeptics alone, they are of great importance! They make us think and test us. If our belief, for lack of a better word, cannot withstand a skeptic(such as belief based off of faith alone, see the quote above :smile:) then there's probably a good reason for that. But if you absolutely know what you know and no matter what anyone says, then that's something worth knowing.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630331 - 05/03/04 02:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

whats so bad....




























































































about my ASSHOLE??????????????????
:goatse: :goatse: :goatse:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630391 - 05/03/04 02:37 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631366 - 05/03/04 12:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People want to believe; the human experience is short and confusing.

Skepticism is my way of seeking truth. I think it's important for truth to conform to actuality. In my experience, it's unheathy to hold an opinion as fact (a belief). I have found support for this view in history books. So much conflict surrounds people who hold different things as being true. To me, skepticism is a healthy approach to reality.


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OfflineLux
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2631412 - 05/03/04 12:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with that 100 percent. There's more to experience than most people think though.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631437 - 05/03/04 12:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the best arguement I can think of against skepticism is to eat a buttload of acid and watch The Matrix movies for 72 hours straight. 

"How do you know this is real?"

"It looks real."

"But how do you KNOW?"

"I can see it."

"But how can you BELIEVE what you SEE, when you don't KNOW?"

"I don't know what I believe anymore."

"But do you know what you see?"

"I believe that I see what I know."

"I know that you believe what you see, but how do you know what you see without belief?"

"Dude, are you for real?"

"What is real?"

repeat ad nauseum while annoying, non-drum and bass electronic music plays in the background...

dude, like, omg that movie was so deep, I'm going to incorporate it into my everyday life:

"Is that traffic light green?"

"yes."

"are you sure?"

"of course I'm sure!  Go!  people are starting to honk!"

"But how do I KNOW that its green?" 

"Well, now its red!"

"Maybe it was red all along..."

"NO DUDE!!!  It was green, and now its red, and all the people in the cars behind us are pissed."

"But how do you KNOW it was green?"

:rolleyes: :nut:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblebert
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2631446 - 05/03/04 12:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

That's not skepticicm. I think a lot of people don't even understand what it is to be skeptical. It's not denying EVERYTHING. It's suspending belief in some philosophy, religion, view. There is healthy skepticism, then there is rabid skepticism, which is like fundamental religiousity just on the other end of the spectrum.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: bert]
    #2631469 - 05/03/04 12:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

my example was a bit of an ad absurdium, but the point is that you cant question EVERYTHING, otherwise you will be balled up in the corner, completely unable to cope.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2631488 - 05/03/04 01:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
the best arguement I can think of against skepticism is to eat a buttload of acid and watch The Matrix movies for 72 hours straight. 

"How do you know this is real?"

"It looks real."

"But how do you KNOW?"

"I can see it."

"But how can you BELIEVE what you SEE, when you don't KNOW?"

"I don't know what I believe anymore."

"But do you know what you see?"

"I believe that I see what I know."

"I know that you believe what you see, but how do you know what you see without belief?"

"Dude, are you for real?"

"What is real?"

repeat ad nauseum while annoying, non-drum and bass electronic music plays in the background...

dude, like, omg that movie was so deep, I'm going to incorporate it into my everyday life:

"Is that traffic light green?"

"yes."

"are you sure?"

"of course I'm sure!  Go!  people are starting to honk!"

"But how do I KNOW that its green?" 

"Well, now its red!"

"Maybe it was red all along..."

"NO DUDE!!!  It was green, and now its red, and all the people in the cars behind us are pissed."

"But how do you KNOW it was green?"

:rolleyes: :nut:





hahaha thats pretty damn funny, but no where near the dialogue of the matrix...or sane people for that matter :P


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinecosmicchic
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631655 - 05/03/04 01:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

whose to say that truth seekers havn't applied skeptism to stuff they have become confident with? I just came for an AOL chat where someone was encouraging me to play with raising kundalini energy. I said no thanks-don't want to force something that should be natural and have read horror stories. He said I had fears. Probably. I am skeptical of playing with kundalini rising techniques. I think skeptisim is the manifestation of fear. We use skeptisism to avoid exploring what we are afraid of.

Skeptism= fear in my book. I am not saying that fear is a bad thing. It can serve as a caution or warning. It can also be totally irrational and inhibiting to ones growth.

Ultimately there is nothing to be afraid of save our own irrational fears. When you summon courage to explore uncharted territory while exercising caution you can bust through your fears and then realise how ridiculous you were because there was nothing to be afraid of. People make mountains out of mole hills. It's human nature to do that. The question is, why are people so afraid to reduce the size of the mountain to see what is on the other side of it?

What we have here are those who are comfortable staying in the established east coast and those who are pioneers in spirit exploring the wild wild west.

Love,
cindy


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: cosmicchic]
    #2631721 - 05/03/04 02:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

We use skeptisism to avoid exploring what we are afraid of.



You and I seem to have exactly opposite ideas of what skepticism is. To help out, I'll consult a dictionary:

skep?ti?cism also scep?ti?cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skpt-szm)
n.
1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
2. Philosophy.
a) The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
b) The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.
c) A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.
3. Doubt or disbelief of religious tenets.

You seem to be going by the third definition, while I'm using the first definition. Skepticism, to me, is not based on fear at all. Blind faith is based on fear of the unknown. Skepticism is a position of being comfortable with not knowing. Skepticism takes courage. You have to have the courage to question your own beliefs, and ultimately recognize that nothing can be known for certain. Also, what you described about kundalini energy is not skepticism at all. It is fear. A skeptic would probably be curious to test out those techniques.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinetrippysmurf
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631820 - 05/03/04 02:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Not sure if any of you follow theoretical physics, but the Catholic church in the past has always tried to prevent research into the origin of the universe. They calimed it was not be looked at by man, and the church's belief in creationism is all that was needed.

Huh? Sounds to me like they're tired of being proven wrong. The way the Catholic church operates in these regards is very similar to a "seeker" not wanting to converse with a "skeptic". They preach and preach about exactly the way things are, and when proof is found that they are wrong (ie: the Earth isn't the center of the universe) they do not accept the proof. After the proof becomes commonplace, they change their standing, accept the proof and somehow find a phrase in the bible that allows them to accept the new way of thinking.

The church just a few decades ago said you may research the past, and learn about the development of planets and stars, but do not look into the exact moment of "creationism" that is to be known only by God.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Don't want to be proven wrong again, huh?


--------------------
I like your Christ, but I do not like Christians - they are so unlike Christ. -Gandhi


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Offlinecosmicchic
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631852 - 05/03/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To the contrary Silver,

I had the balls to admit to him and all of you that the thought of rising some ancient serpant energy that will permanatly open my mind is damn scary to me.

Now, had I wanted to hide the fact that I'm just afraid, I  would've done what a handful of some of you here do and put him through the drill like this;



Ho do you know kundalini energy is real?

Prove it?

If it is real how do you know it's safe to foece it through the use of techniques?

I've read documented cases where people have fried out their nervous systems doing it.

You're a gullible fool for belieiving in it and if you try, you'll end up damaged.

He would've called me a skeptic and you all know how this story goes.

Skeptisim I think is a pretentious front to hide fear. He and I don't have a pretentious relationship and nothing to prove to each other to be friends who love and respect each other. He called me on my fears and I admitted to them and we laughed about it.

I think there is something to be considered for a healthy sense of caution-meaning, proceed slowly into the unknown so if you run into a potential danger or something that smells fishy, there is time to back track and redirect. Some people here exercise that sort of healthy "skeptism".

That is different from the other brand used here which is flat out judgmental criticism being fronted by an argument for being a "healthy reasonable skeptic".

Fronts are fronts and a lot of us can see behind them. The only people some are kidding here about it is themselves.:lol:

I agree- a healthy skeptic would check out those techniques, excersing caution and use discernment along the way with an open mind.

A posing skeptic would lamblast the whole idea of it as being BS and dangerous and foolish.

A healthy person would just be secure enough to admit when they are afraid of something they know little about and leave it at that. They wouldn't care to discourage another from going there though. I keep telling him to go for it. He doesn't need to hold my hand through it. Maybe he has fears too :lol:

Love,
Cindy


Edited by cosmicchic (05/03/04 02:56 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: cosmicchic]
    #2631868 - 05/03/04 02:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

brilliance


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Offlinecosmicchic
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2631924 - 05/03/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks Shroomism!

A lot of people here said brilliant stuff to me. I loved the catholic church one!

Here's an added shocker for you silver and anyone who thinks I am blindly gullible.

After I told him I wasn't interested to prusue it because of doubts he came back with " The pleadians have a channeled work book out on it. That should be enough for YOU , Cindy" . I was like, "I don't give a shit. Not to say there book on techniques for safely raising such an energy is wrong. Even if it were correct and even if I do trust in their loving wisdom, the point is- it is Me who is not ready because something scares me.

Until I work through my personal fears related to it, I'm not going there, even if the pleiadians say it's okay.

I don't have to pose as a skeptic and put him or them down to hide my own fears. So what if it scares me. Life goes on, the world won't end, people who truly love and respect me still will, and some day I will uncover what is buried deeply keeping me held back. Whats so wrong with people just saying, "I am not ready to comfortably go there" and leave it at that? If they did they would get more compassionate replies instead of argumentative rebuttles to their skeptism.

Love,
Cindy


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Anonymous

Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2631994 - 05/03/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're right. The only problem I have are debunkers who pose as skeptics. There are a couple on the S&P forum who play this role quite well.

Believer - one who's inclined to believe something without viewing the evidence
Debunker - one who's inclined to dismiss something without viewing the evidence
Skeptic - one who puts their personal inclinations aside, looks at evidence in an objective case-by-case fashion, NOT LUMPING SIMILAR CASES TOGETHER *WINK WINK* :wink:, and then determines whether something could be true or not


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: cosmicchic]
    #2632247 - 05/03/04 04:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cosmicchic said:
To the contrary Silver,

I had the balls to admit to him and all of you that the thought of rising some ancient serpant energy that will permanatly open my mind is damn scary to me.



A skeptic would not have been so scared of the unknown.

Quote:

Now, had I wanted to hide the fact that I'm just afraid, I would've done what a handful of some of you here do and put him through the drill like this;



Ho do you know kundalini energy is real?

Prove it?

If it is real how do you know it's safe to foece it through the use of techniques?

I've read documented cases where people have fried out their nervous systems doing it.



Doing good so far.

Quote:

You're a gullible fool for belieiving in it and if you try, you'll end up damaged.



Not at all the kind of thing a real skeptic would say.

Quote:

Skeptisim I think is a pretentious front to hide fear. He and I don't have a pretentious relationship and nothing to prove to each other to be friends who love and respect each other. He called me on my fears and I admitted to them and we laughed about it.



Skeptics don't hide fear fear. They face it. I think you have a very warped view of skepticism.

Quote:

That is different from the other brand used here which is flat out judgmental criticism being fronted by an argument for being a "healthy reasonable skeptic".



This is not skepticism at all, but rather ignorance, the enemy of skepticism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTinTree
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Re: What's so bad about skeptics? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2632271 - 05/03/04 04:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Then again, speaking as somone who was a staunch atheist and skeptic to the point of hating religion as self-delusion for most of my life, now that I've found a faith for myself, it's mostly just annoying when skeptics try and pick apart my beliefs, and not in any way productive.

Moral of the Story: Faith is a personal matter.  Don't stick your nose into someone else's unless they ask you to. :smile:


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley


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