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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Deviate]
    #5509045 - 04/12/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

scientific studies belong here.

I'd be willing to bet that if a mystic head posts a study where prayer DID help, it would be allowed to stay.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Diploid]
    #5509063 - 04/12/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
scientific studies belong here.

I'd be willing to bet that if a mystic head post a study where prayer DID help, it would be allowed to stay.




would you not agree that rigorous questinging and debate are a part of science and thus topics having to do with science are more appropriate for this, the debate forum?


Edited by Deviate (04/12/06 05:20 PM)


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OfflineTemptress
Butterfly
Female

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Diploid]
    #5509099 - 04/12/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

well, i have jsut recieved a 90 day ban in MRP for NOT questioning anothers beliefs in the Riley thread.

is there not supposed to be a warning system?

fear is a terrible thing.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


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Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5509124 - 04/12/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

would you not agree that rigorous questinging and debate are a part of science and thus topics having to do with science are more appropriate for this, the debate forum?




i agree.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5509201 - 04/12/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No need for the melodrama.

"duh! it failed because there is no deity listening to pathetic mumblings and petitions - in fact he got pissed off so it worked in reverse..."

This sentence from your thread plainly breaks MRP forum rules 1, 2, and 3. No more needs to be said.


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineTemptress
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Deviate]
    #5509208 - 04/12/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it is about THE POSTER not the content, such is the advanced spiritual nature of those running the show.

notice no probem with the Evolution thread as Diploid predicted.

all (wo)men are created equal; some are just more equal than others.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Deviate]
    #5509246 - 04/12/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

the goal of the forum is for people who share an interest in the spiritual worldview to come together and discuss ideas and experiences and share knowledge. the goal is not to question the validity of the spiritual worldview by endlessly questioning every aspect of it.

i challenge the notion that a spiritual worldview requires the abandonment of reason.

what is the point of comparing different views if it is prohibited to compare them on the most important criterion: basis in, representation of, and usefulness in, reality?


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OfflineTemptress
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: wilshire]
    #5509261 - 04/12/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i challenge the notion that a spiritual worldview requires the abandonment of reason.





*gasp* Heretic! :whoa:


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i have less ego than you do!


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: wilshire]
    #5509271 - 04/12/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well good job taking the quote you used out of context. Within the section you truncated is the phrase, "the use of reason is not prohibited."

The prayer thread which was the original subject of this offshoot thread contains, in the very first post, an insulting attack to any who pray. The arguments above push this fact aside and pretend the thread was moved for another reason. Please spare us the bull.


--------------------
Namaste


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OfflineTemptress
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5509294 - 04/12/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

the goal is not to question ... by endlessly questioning

was this written by the Department of Redundancy Department or what?

also note the exaggeration, the total number of questions is, and has always been, finite in nature.

a few questions MUST therefore be allowed according the the rules.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


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InvisibleAsante
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5509359 - 04/12/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Wow Swami did the people who left over the whole affair know you rushed back in, hiding in drag?


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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
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Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Asante]
    #5509366 - 04/12/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Dude...I was so about to write...

"Swa--???" 

Nah, couldn't be.  :grin:

I can't help it, I recognized the style.  It seeped through.


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OfflineTemptress
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Registered: 01/31/06
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Asante]
    #5509376 - 04/12/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

off-topic posting can result in a warning or a ban according to the rulez...


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5509394 - 04/12/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

off-topic posting can result in a warning or a ban according to the rulez...




The same rules that do not allow questioning anothers beliefs in MRP. Perhaps the thread is off-topic.


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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: RedNucleus]
    #5509399 - 04/12/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well good job taking the quote you used out of context. Within the section you truncated is the phrase, "the use of reason is not prohibited."

sorry... reason is not prohibited in MRP. it's more like a regulated controlled substance.

an insulting attack to any who pray.

if it had been worded differently, it would still be against MRP's prohibition of questioning the validity of a practice or belief.

some things are true and some things are not true. to find truth requires one to determine what is true and what is not. it requires one to "question beliefs". the purpose of MRP is clearly not to find truth (because it is prohibited to attempt to seperate truth from non-truth), and i simply do not understand the purpose of discussing philosophical and spiritual topics if it isn't to find truth or to put truth into purposeful action.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Asante]
    #5509401 - 04/12/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)


was this written by the Department of Redundancy Department or what?

also note the exaggeration, the total number of questions is, and has always been, finite in nature.

a few questions MUST therefore be allowed according the the rules.


what are you talking about?


Edited by Deviate (04/12/06 06:52 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: wilshire]
    #5509455 - 04/12/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

OK. I misunderstood. You have a good argument. You suggest that the moderators are biased in enforcing the rules. I don't come here often enough to know for myself if this is true. Let's ask the mods.


Any moderators reading this, please reply. If the thread at the following link ( http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5488926/an/0/page/0 ) was written from a more objective perspective, would it have been left in MRP? If the line calling prayer pathetic and making a joke about god punishing the faithful with worse health, etc. was not there, and the thread title was something along the lines of "Study finds no correlation between prayer and surgery success," would the thread remain in MRP?


I imagine that it would. It would then follow the forum rules. The reasoning of the study would be intact. Problem solved.


--------------------
Namaste


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Asante]
    #5509525 - 04/12/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Wow Swami did the people who left over the whole affair know you rushed back in, hiding in drag?



There's no way Temptress is Swami. Swami was far more insightful and engaging.


--------------------


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: wilshire]
    #5509566 - 04/12/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

(The second half of this post is to Temptress)

Quote:

wilshire said:

here and in PAL, there is tough debate which helps sharpen critical reasoning and arrive at truth.




In MR&P, there is pleasant discussion, which helps sharpen respectful social skills, self control and arrive at deeper mutual understandings in areas of common interest. :wink:

Quote:

in culinary arts, there is sharing of practical knowledge.



In MR&P, there is also the sharing of practical knowledge related to many esoteric topics, like meditation, energy body work, how to develop deeper insight and clarity, etc. The use of information is relative to ones personal goals and ability to apply it. :wink:

Quote:

the pub and OTD are for humor and socializing.




MR&P is for gaining deeper understandings of the bigger META-picture, through sharing information.  :wink:

Quote:

the thing that makes MRP special is faith. applying reason is not permitted in that forum because the whole point of the forum is to provide an environment where the faithful may be uninterrupted by their own faculties of reason or anyone else's (it's the only forum where reasoning is prohibited). i do not understand how denying and prohibiting the use of reason can ever be constructive.




That was completely ignorant wilshire. :tongue:

Posters have valid reasons for what they are interested in and are constructing paradigms of understanding and reason that serve them in their personal goals. You don;t see it because, you have different personal goals, like getting to political truths.

The funniest part is that you believe you do not live on faith everyday.

Do you ask your employer to pay you up front before starting work or do you have faith he will pay you later? Why do you? Because your check is always there on payday. Same goes for people who ritually meditate every morning. When they do, they feel better throughout the day. They have learned to trust they will because they always do. When they had to skip it, they do not feel as good. They have faith that their ritualistic morning meditation brings results because they proved it to themselves through trial and error. Doing something that makes you feel better for the day is good reasoning.

Same with people who work out at the gym and eat healthy.

Regardless, some people get stiffed on paychecks when a business goes belly up. There is no guarantee you'll get your next check, yet you believe you will.

Some guys can pump iron all day and build little muscle mass without steroids. They believed if they pumped iron, they would look like the other guys who do. They started out with faith in the practice that it would bring the desired results.

You have faith, that the burger you order will not give you salmonella and so you order it, because you've never been poisoned before from buying burgers. No guarantee you won't. People have died from salmonella poisoning buying burgers. People still buy them on faith that they were cooked properly.

Why do you bother leaving messages on answering machines? You have faith, the party will get the message. No guarantee. Someone else in the house could erase it first. You leave messages anyway because yo have faith that they will get it.

I could write for 100  pages inciting how much you and others apply faith in your own life. For the same reason you do, so do many others discussing things in MR&P. Many do because, they got results in the past they learned they could trust in and have good reason to make practical applications with some of the information shared there. :smile:

Debating subjective experiences is what gets nowhere. If I say a party sucked and you thought it was awesome, who is right, who is telling the truth about how the party was? PROVE IT!

See how dumb and senseless that is?

Some people recognized that debate being initiated in posts with subjective content in here only lead to senseless arguing and flame wars. So a forum was created for discussion of subjective experiences. Why is that so hard to appreciate or understand?




Temptress, If someone posts in MRP, research data that supports the power of prayer, they are now getting into objective territory and the "here's objective evidence" game. I think mods should be moving that stuff into here as well. If people are bringing up objective data, independent of their own personal experiences, then YES, both sides should be represented, IN HERE. I Agree with that.

I think there is confusion regarding initiating such a policy because "evidence" related to UFO research gets posted in there under the paranormal header, BECAUSE, some members didn't want UFO research and debate/discussion posts in this forum.

Which is it people? Do you want objective MR&P research in support of the validity of MRP topics posted in here or not? If not, then it looks like they will stay in there for now to keep the complainers against that form of "forum cluttering" happy.   :laugh:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5509642 - 04/12/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quoting you. I just want to point to the part of your post I am talking about.

"the "here's objective evidence" game. I think mods should be moving that stuff into here as well. If people are bringing up objective data, independent of their own personal experiences, then YES, both sides should be represented, IN HERE [S&P]."

If outright banning of objective data is standard practice in the MRP forum, I feel a hefty level of contempt for that forum.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your position that objective data has no place in MRP. Consider the following scenario.

Forum: MRP
Subject: Discuss implications of the results of a study on prayer's effectiveness
Body: [Insert link and description of prayer/heart surgery study] Let's discuss what this study suggests about how God responds or does not respond to prayer, and what implications it makes about the existence of God.

From the forum rules: "The goal of a discussion is to understand. In a discussion, both parties must be careful to remain on the 'same side of the table.'"

100% Kosher MRP material, and it uses the same study you recommended banning simply because of its objectivity. If we remain within the rules, reason does have a valid place in that forum.


--------------------
Namaste


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