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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5508126 - 04/12/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

apparently you dont understand science because the fact a study doesnt find something hardly means there's nothing there. if this study had found an affect (as many others have) would you be here touting the benefits of prayer? please answer honestly.

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OfflineTemptress
Butterfly
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Deviate]
    #5508144 - 04/12/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

apparently you dont understand science



first it is important to start with an erroneous ad himenem

Quote:

because the fact a study doesnt find something hardly means there's nothing there



true dat, but it certainly doensnt support the contention of THOSE WHO CONDUCTED THE STUDY.


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i have less ego than you do!

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5508215 - 04/12/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

with your wish to get people to stop praying for good things to happen



as well as bad things. both sides in a war pray for the death of the enemy. cant get more enlightened than that.




If prayer never works, why do you care to put a stop to it? Can you see how funny it is that you are fighting against stopping a force you don't even believe exists. Hahahaha that's called shadow boxing.

Quote:

Quote:

Why not just go for the gusto and wish to crush all peoples hopes and dreams too while you're at it?




nice emotional straw-woman. Understanding the fact that prayer is innefectual in combatting cardiac conditions clears the way for the possibility of REAL understanding and treatment of disease.




That wasn't even an argument. It was a suggestion I made to you. Do you know the difference between the two? Look them up in the dictionary and learn something new today. :smile:

You made a strawman argument though. People in hospitals being prayed for are also seeking the BEST of medical treatment. Are you somehow not aware of this? Are you also not aware of remissions and speedy recoveries medical science can not yet explain.

The doctors don't always fix everything. People die in hospitals and live with chronic illness everyday. That's a fact. They can't always help people even with the best of their knowledge. Some doctors are careless idiots. Start watching the Discovery Health Channel. Do you know how many thousands of people go misdiagnosed by doctors and suffer needlessly for years while getting worse because they turned their faith over to doctors? Do you know about this?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineTemptress
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Female

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Texas - where else?
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5508233 - 04/12/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

clumsy doctors or gaps in medical knowledge does not support prayer any more than spontaneous remission does.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5508268 - 04/12/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
clumsy doctors or gaps in medical knowledge does not support prayer any more than spontaneous remission does.




Clumsy doctors and gaps in medical knowledge does not support reason to turn 100% faith over to them alone either. :wink:

Where is your credible source data that says, "Medical science can fix everything. It's foolish to waste time trying anything else."?

:peace: :heart:

edit- typo


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/12/06 02:00 PM)

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OfflineTemptress
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5508285 - 04/12/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Where is your credible source data that says, "Medical science can fix everything. It's foolish to waste time trying anything else."?





you are the only source i have heard that sez medecine can fix everything. (yet ANOTHER in a tireless series of straw-women) it does very well at some things (polio, malaria, broken bones, dental work; etc.)whereas prayer fails at everything as far as manipulating EXTERNAL reality.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5508385 - 04/12/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
Quote:

Where is your credible source data that says, "Medical science can fix everything. It's foolish to waste time trying anything else."?





you are the only source i have heard that sez medecine can fix everything. (yet ANOTHER in a tireless series of straw-women) it does very well at some things (polio, malaria, broken bones, dental work; etc.)whereas prayer fails at everything as far as manipulating EXTERNAL reality.



 

You implied it and are now just realistically clarifying your stance that Medical science can not and does not fix everything. Where it can not and does not, who are you to tell people what else they can or can not try when medical science fails them?

Just because you can not get the space shuttle to work for you, does that mean no one else can either? Millions of people out there will tell you that prayer works for them just fine.

I can see you approaching an astronaut and saying, " I couldn't figure out how to fly this thing myself so, your believing you can is all in your head."

I know I know "straw man". :lol: It's not meant to be an argument though. It's a diagram depicting your brand of conclusive logic and method of deductive reasoning.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5508467 - 04/12/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

just an external POV:

Quote:

Quote:

wilshire said:
it's made for talking a lot without getting anywhere.




That was a bias and narrow statement.

You could say that about most all of the social forums.

PAL- Lots of talk about the war in Iraq. Where is it getting anyone?
Pub- Lots of talk about the parties people go to and Tattoo design. Where is it getting anyone?
OTD-Lot's of talk about Poo and butsex. Where is it getting anyone?
P&S- Lots of talk about perception. Where is it getting anyone?
MR&P- Lots of talk about chakras. Where is it getting anyone?
Culinary Arts-Lots of talk about food. Where is it getting anyone?




to be fair, he said "talking a lot without getting anywhere." not necessarily meaning that anyone expects action to take place.  but whenever debate is banned from discussion, that discussion does not have much meaning in it, other than to excrete ideas in a public setting.  :crazy2:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
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Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: kotik]
    #5508604 - 04/12/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, I must be one of the very rare who gets something out of discussion.  I use it mostly for comparison, because every comparison with another human allows me to explore my own internal universe more completely, and it's always growing, other people are always adding to it.  I can integrate information better at my own pace, through discussion.  Then, once I have clarity, I'll debate, to test those ideas. 

People who believe that there is nothing to be gained by sharing ideas through discussion are not keeping in mind that everyone learns differently.  Not only that, but we're all at varying "places" in our heads and like it or not some of us may not feel confident enough to engage in debate yet. 

The most important thing is that we are LEARNING.  What does it matter if you do it through discussion or debate?  They're just words for the same thing, 'SHARING IDEAS.'  The manner in which the information is relayed is what makes the two forums different, because some people learn better "on their own" through discussion rather then an intense cerebral debate among competative minds in which information is blasted out in a more assertive fashion.  And yeah, some people just don't like to be in that state of mind. 

Personally, my background of aggressive religious training makes me feel leery of intense debates.  I've grown up with them.  As an adult, they give me anxiety.  Right now, I much prefer the "at your own pace" type of learning.  I don't need people to tell me how much I am wrong.  If I'm wrong, I'll figure that out on my own.  That's part of the fun.  Debates just seem like a sideshow to nowhere, like beating the bars of a monkey cage to see the monkey jump around inside.  But I know people get use out of them, and I won't write them off completely because I do too on occasion.  I enjoy witnessing debates more then participating in them, which is why I'm a reader of this forum more then a poster.  I seem to learn best by observing things. 

Anyway.  Who the hell cares.  :tongue2:

(guess I do, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted so much time on one post!  ) 

:crazy2:

"Good morning, Campers!"  :smile:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5508624 - 04/12/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

PAL- Lots of talk about the war in Iraq. Where is it getting anyone?

Gets em into the ROTC.

Pub- Lots of talk about the parties people go to and Tattoo design. Where is it getting anyone?

Gets em stoned.

OTD-Lot's of talk about Poo and butsex. Where is it getting anyone?

Gets em into an emotionless mental fortress.

P&S- Lots of talk about perception. Where is it getting anyone?

Gets em to the bookstore.

MR&P- Lots of talk about chakras. Where is it getting anyone?

Gets em to the New Age section of the bookstore.

Culinary Arts-Lots of talk about food. Where is it getting anyone?

Gets em plump.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: kotik]
    #5508718 - 04/12/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

other than to excrete ideas in a public setting




Yes, that's why is was created from out of this forum. To be a non debate forum and just a place to share ideas, beliefs and experiences-a place for discussion with people who share mutual positive interests.

That is the point of it

In a debate, people try to argue their side of something with whatever they can to win an argument.

Some people here think they win debates when the one they were debating with, never even budged one inch from the view they had before it started. :lol: Nothing was won over.

For any valid closed mindedness that may go on in a non debate forum, it sure goes on within debates as well. Just because something is being formally debated doesn't mean all participants are being reasonable, rational, logical and open minded.

Illusions and delusions abound in both debates and discussions in life.

Have you read many debates in here and PAL and not noticed how many end up nowhere? Damn, there was once a 40 page debate on free will in here that got nowhere.

Debates go off in PAL about how much people love or hate Bush. They get nowhere.

I would say that in most of the debate styles taking place at the shroomery, people get less further with coming to any place of new understanding because rarely is one listening to the other. Everyone just excretes their views and opinions then walks away.

In a discussion of mutual positive interest, people are relaxed and open and taking in information to learn from. A lot of listening takes place in a pleasant discussion. Therefor, more learning is taking place as well.

Think about it and look for that as you read around here.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinewilshire
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5508831 - 04/12/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You could say that about most all of the social forums.

here and in PAL, there is tough debate which helps sharpen critical reasoning and arrive at truth.

in culinary arts, there is sharing of practical knowledge.

the pub and OTD are for humor and socializing.

the thing that makes MRP special is faith. applying reason is not permitted in that forum because the whole point of the forum is to provide an environment where the faithful may be uninterrupted by their own faculties of reason or anyone else's (it's the only forum where reasoning is prohibited). i do not understand how denying and prohibiting the use of reason can ever be constructive.


--------------------


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OfflineTemptress
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Registered: 01/31/06
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Loc: Texas - where else?
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: wilshire]
    #5508859 - 04/12/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

think of it as kindergarten...


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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Offlinekotik
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5508908 - 04/12/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

notice im not complaining about the existance of MRP, OTD or the Pub. in fact, im for them. but i dont usually make use of any of them.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
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Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5508912 - 04/12/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I admit it.  I eat play dough.  :frown:

(paste too)

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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: MOTH]
    #5508994 - 04/12/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)


here and in PAL, there is tough debate which helps sharpen critical reasoning and arrive at truth.

in culinary arts, there is sharing of practical knowledge.

the pub and OTD are for humor and socializing.

the thing that makes MRP special is faith. applying reason is not permitted in that forum because the whole point of the forum is to provide an environment where the faithful may be uninterrupted by their own faculties of reason or anyone else's (it's the only forum where reasoning is prohibited). i do not understand how denying and prohibiting the use of reason can ever be constructive.


the use of reason is not prohibited. the goal of the forum is for people who share an interest in the spiritual worldview to come together and discuss ideas and experiences and share knowledge. the goal is not to question the validity of the spiritual worldview by endlessly questioning every aspect of it. there are some things which simply cannot be proven and therefore its already known that they will not hold up to the most stringent standards of proof. so what is the point of trying to apply these standards when you already know what the result will be? when you already know there are unanswered questions?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Deviate]
    #5509018 - 04/12/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

and share knowledge

Sharing the knowledge that a Prayer Study Fails Miserably is not sharing knowledge?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineTemptress
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Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Deviate]
    #5509020 - 04/12/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

so what is the point of trying to apply these standards when you already know what the result will be




those trying to promote a spiritual view through prayer failed to deomonstrate same and so that FACT was shuttled out of the forum.

no one has yet to explain why that was not allowed to remain there. smells alot like fear to me and fear is unspiritual.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Diploid]
    #5509027 - 04/12/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
and share knowledge

Sharing the knowledge that a Prayer Study Fails Miserably is not sharing knowledge?




who said it wasn't?

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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: questioning anothers beliefs is wrong in MRP [Re: Temptress]
    #5509038 - 04/12/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Temptress said:
Quote:

so what is the point of trying to apply these standards when you already know what the result will be




those trying to promote a spiritual view through prayer failed to deomonstrate same and so that FACT was shuttled out of the forum.

no one has yet to explain why that was not allowed to remain there. smells alot like fear to me and fear is unspiritual.




i explained it. the mods felt it was more appropriate for this, the debate forum. scientific studies belong here.

Edited by Deviate (04/12/06 05:13 PM)

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