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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers
    #3970670 - 03/26/05 12:14 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050326/ap_on_re_us/nra_safe_schools


NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers


Fri Mar 25, 7:55 PM ET U.S. National - AP

By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN, Associated Press Writer

PHOENIX - All options should be considered to prevent rampages like the Minnesota school shooting that took 10 lives ? including making guns available to teachers, a top National Rifle Association leader said Friday.

"I'm not saying that that means every teacher should have a gun or not, but what I am saying is we need to look at all the options at what will truly protect the students," the NRA's first vice president, Sandra S. Froman, told The Associated Press.

Gun-control restrictions would not have prevented Jeff Weise, 16, from killing nine people and himself Monday at Red Lake High School near Bemidji, Minn., said Froman, an attorney expected next month to be elected president of the NRA, which claims 4 million members.

The presence of an unarmed guard at the school failed to stop the siege, she noted.

"No gun law, no policy that you could implement now or that was already implemented, I think, could possibly prevent someone so intent on destruction," she said. "I think everything's on the table as far as looking at what we need to do to make our schools safe for our students."

Froman said if it is the responsibility of teachers to protect students in a school, "then we as a society, we as a community have to provide a way for the teachers to do that."

Froman cited the 1997 school shooting incident in Pearl, Miss., where a teacher retrieved a gun from his car when a student opened fire, then held the student at bay until police arrived.

A law prohibiting guns in schools "is not going to stop someone who has evil in their heart and who has the capacity to commit those crimes from doing them," Froman said.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3970753 - 03/26/05 12:32 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :lol: That's brilliant!  :rolleyes: Fucking douchebags.......  Nice sig BTW


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3970760 - 03/26/05 12:34 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Instead of just insulting the article, why don't you tell us what's wrong with it? If a teacher is properly trained and mentally stable, he or she should be able to keep a gun in case there are acts of violence that would kill or severely injure someone, like a school shooting or stabbing, true? Explain the douchebaggery in the theory.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3970783 - 03/26/05 12:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I really don't think putting MORE guns in schools is the right idea. I mean this guy DID get his guns from a cop.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Ravus]
    #3970800 - 03/26/05 12:45 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Teachers are there to teach, NOT to use guns. Our school systems are fucked up enough....prison-like as it is, you give the teachers guns it'll be one more step down that road. Also it'll make it that much easier to shoot up schools...the guns will already be there. I know for a fact that if I was a father I would NEVER send my kid to a school where teachers had guns...hell, I wouldn't send them to our schools now.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3970830 - 03/26/05 12:51 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

**EDITED BY RONO...don't push it slick***


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


Edited by Rono (03/29/05 06:23 PM)


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: SoopaX]
    #3970982 - 03/26/05 01:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

*NO FLAMING* :smirk:  I find it appalling and saddening that anyone would want teachers having guns...if that makes me a pussy than so be it, but being ok with your kids going to school under those circumstances makes you a docile idiot.


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Edited by Rono (03/29/05 06:22 PM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3970996 - 03/26/05 01:31 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps you could tell me why a adult with a college education and a background that is clear enough to allow them to be students should not be able to carry a firearm on publically owned property? That'd be nifty and neato.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3971003 - 03/26/05 01:33 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Why would teachers being armed be a bad thing? They could keep guns padlocked in their desks possibly, and it's not like the could go around shooting kids who misbehave. I doubt it would strike fear into kids, as the teacher's not going to shoot anyone, he'll probably never even have to use it, but if there is a school massacre then the teacher can defend both himself and his students.

I don't necessarily support it but so far the objections raised to it seem to be weak at best.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: SoopaX]
    #3971073 - 03/26/05 01:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Being an adult with a college education and an OK background doesn't mean shit.... Some teachers are genuinely good people that are there because they enjoy teaching, many others are there because they feel powerful, and they like bossing people around. IME I have only come across a few of the good teachers, and a whole lot of the assholes. When I think about the teachers I've had, as well as the principals and so on, I cringe at the idea of them having firearms on school property. Our schools indoctrinate our children, they don't advocate free thinking, expression, and they don't value different opinions. Kids are treated like shit in our schools, guns will just add to the image of our schools being prison-like. No wonder people actually think this country is free, they've never known true freedom. Also take into consideration all the teachers that have abused their power in more severe ways, sexual harassment, molestation, etc....teachers cannot be trusted with guns. Don't give me the "one bad seed" bullshit either...because for every case reported, there are 10 that are never discovered. The schools I went to had a lot of sick fuckers in the front of the classroom. We need to keep guns out of schools, not bring more in. You're naive if you think a student wouldn't be able to find and steal one of those guns....plus, think about it from a teachers point of view; taking a life is no easy thing, how the hell are they supposed to live with themselves after shooting a student? It doesn't matter whether the kid was shooting first or not, it will lay on their conscience.....and what if they wind up shooting an innocent bystander in the process? That'll really fuck with their heads, not to mention it will probably cause a lawsuit. When soldiers in Iraq accidentally shoot civilians in combat they often get punished for it, I don't see how it would be any different in a school situation. What we need to do, is try to figure out what is causing all the violence in this country, and try to do something about it. This situation is pretty obvious, the Indians have been fucked over hardcore, and they don't have much hope. This kid lost his father to suicide, and his mother to an alcohol caused accident, he was on Prozac. This country has a history of locking up or killing people with problems rather than trying to help them, it's past time this changed. Maybe then we won't have as many tragedies like this one.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Ravus]
    #3971127 - 03/26/05 02:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

do you really think guns in schools will be a safe move? Some kids are clever and determined, and some teachers are absent minded. Throw both guns and deranged, mal-adjusted teenagers into that mix, and I predict more violence or accidents.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3971299 - 03/26/05 03:15 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Being an adult with a college education and an OK background doesn't mean shit....




It means that they are an educated member of society who has never commited a crime. That means a good deal when judging the rightness of them to carry a firearm. Say I had to, with no further information, trust someone who was college educated and had a clean background versus a dropout who is a felon. Who would you choose?

Quote:

Some teachers are genuinely good people that are there because they enjoy teaching, many others are there because they feel powerful, and they like bossing people around. IME I have only come across a few of the good teachers, and a whole lot of the assholes. When I think about the teachers I've had, as well as the principals and so on, I cringe at the idea of them having firearms on school property. Our schools indoctrinate our children, they don't advocate free thinking, expression, and they don't value different opinions.




One time I'd like to make a big list of liberalisms so you could save the time of typing them out each time. I realize that the big bad neocons and the evil teachers are indoctrinating our children with such evil values as religion and discipline, but thats not we are talking about now. IF a teacher had a gun, these school shootings would be pretty quickly stopped. IF some pilots had guns, 9/11 would be the day that we prevented a terror attack.
Quote:


Kids are treated like shit in our schools, guns will just add to the image of our schools being prison-like. No wonder people actually think this country is free, they've never known true freedom. Also take into consideration all the teachers that have abused their power in more severe ways, sexual harassment, molestation, etc....teachers cannot be trusted with guns. Don't give me the "one bad seed" bullshit either...because for every case reported, there are 10 that are never discovered. The schools I went to had a lot of sick fuckers in the front of the classroom. We need to keep guns out of schools, not bring more in.




blah blah blah, stick to the fucking topic. Your childish views on how to fix the world smack of a 17 year old know-it-all-high-school student. Pay the fuck attention to the conversation and the points that are part of the real issue. I'm not saying that teachers MUST have guns on them, but if someone feels the need, why not?

Why should a private adult in the US with no criminal background be prohibited from carrying a gun on taxpayer property?
Quote:


You're naive if you think a student wouldn't be able to find and steal one of those guns.




A locked gun can't be shot.
Quote:

...plus, think about it from a teachers point of view; taking a life is no easy thing, how the hell are they supposed to live with themselves after shooting a student?




Dude, stay the fuck on topic. How would the teacher feel if he had to lock his legally owned firearm that he was licensed to carry in his car before school, and during school a kid came through on a spree.
Quote:

It doesn't matter whether the kid was shooting first or not, it will lay on their conscience.....and what if they wind up shooting an innocent bystander in the process? That'll really fuck with their heads, not to mention it will probably cause a lawsuit. When soldiers in Iraq accidentally shoot civilians in combat they often get punished for it, I don't see how it would be any different in a school situation.




Non sequitors will be deleted from this point onwards.
Quote:


What we need to do, is try to figure out what is causing all the violence in this country, and try to do something about it. This situation is pretty obvious, the Indians have been fucked over hardcore, and they don't have much hope. This kid lost his father to suicide, and his mother to an alcohol caused accident, he was on Prozac. This country has a history of locking up or killing people with problems rather than trying to help them, it's past time this changed. Maybe then we won't have as many tragedies like this one.



So why should we ban guns from private citizens?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: SoopaX]
    #3972005 - 03/26/05 12:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Soopa, so do we raise taxes to pay for the firearm training, skill maintenance practice shooting, and the actual guns & ammo for these teachers? Or do we just further fuck them over on their salaries?


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3972037 - 03/26/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

great, lets just hand out even MORE guns to stop the gun violence problem in the US. wonderful. I guess i can see how the NRA could benefit from that.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Vvellum]
    #3972348 - 03/26/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
do you really think guns in schools will be a safe move? Some kids are clever and determined, and some teachers are absent minded. Throw both guns and deranged, mal-adjusted teenagers into that mix, and I predict more violence or accidents.



If it was just one teacher who was armed, I might agree. But if they're all armed, there's enough of them to stop a rampage like the one we just saw.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: unbeliever]
    #3972384 - 03/26/05 02:34 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Soopa, so do we raise taxes to pay for the firearm training, skill maintenance practice shooting, and the actual guns & ammo for these teachers? Or do we just further fuck them over on their salaries?



This is probably the best objection I've heard so far. A project like this could be pretty costly. But I do think it might help if we allow teachers with concealed carry permits to be armed on campus.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3972404 - 03/26/05 02:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i'd be so desperate if the government allowed teachers to have guns, that i'd just laugh..i'd laugh my heart out, and i'd just not give a fuck anymore, everyone could just die, and i'd still be desperately laughing.

all of this is nonsense, and this nonsense is accentuated by the fact that some of you here would not really see a problem with teachers having guns.

please just let me abandon this thread in an honorful manner and let me live the rest of my days on an isolated island, where i can make myself a bow and arrows in order to defend my land from the invasion of unwanted strangers, that way i'll live securitiraly ever after...thank you.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: exclusive58]
    #3972423 - 03/26/05 02:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
i'd be so desperate if the government allowed teachers to have guns, that i'd just laugh..i'd laugh my heart out, and i'd just not give a fuck anymore, everyone could just die, and i'd still be desperately laughing.



Hey, do what you gotta do.

Quote:

all of this is nonsense, and this nonsense is accentuated by the fact that some of you here would not really see a problem with teachers having guns.



What is nonsense is the knee-jerk reaction so many people here have against guns. Yes, they're made to kill and injure people, but killing or injuring someone can sometimes be necessary to defend the lives of others. No one here has made a decent argument for why it would be more dangerous to have trained teachers armed and ready to defend their students' lives, rather than trust the metal detectors. Someone earlier said that armed teachers would make the schools more like a prison. I say no. The reason schools have become like prisons is to try to accomplish the impossible task of keeping guns out of schools.

Quote:

please just let me abandon this thread in an honorful manner and let me live the rest of my days on an isolated island, where i can make myself a bow and arrows in order to defend my land from the invasion of unwanted strangers, that way i'll live securitiraly ever after...thank you.



Whatever floats your boat.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: Silversoul]
    #3973716 - 03/26/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Real world occurences, problems, and solutions are never black and white. Every possible avenue of action has negatives, positives, and unforeseen results.

For example, by having automobiles be legal we are capable of traveling great distances quite easily and comfortably. At the same time, many people die because of this. As I see it, the ability of us to travel outweighs the deaths that occur every year.

So, let's look at this from a utilitarian viewpoint.....

There seems to be a school massacre every year or so. Probably about 5-10 people die on average every year in school massacres. While it is shocking when it happens, it is not very common and the total death toll is not very high. This makes me think that it is not necessary for us to address the problem because it is not a very big problem.

I surmise that handgun accidents in the school would be a problem if a lot of teachers were packing. I would also worry about students getting ahold of a readily available handgun that was possessed by a teacher.

If a lot of teachers carried handguns, about 100 people a year would die in my opinion. As it is now about 10 people a year die. From a utilitarian viewpoint, I say that it is not a good idea to have teachers packing. And I am about as pro-gun as a person can get.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: NRA Leader Advocates Guns for Teachers [Re: unbeliever]
    #3973820 - 03/26/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Soopa, so do we raise taxes to pay for the firearm training, skill maintenance practice shooting, and the actual guns & ammo for these teachers? Or do we just further fuck them over on their salaries?




There's a way this could be done without costing the taxpayers a cent.

It's called private education. Private schools could fund for their teachers to train to use guns, to buy the guns, and to secure them properly, and then they could easily make up for this by having more students who are confident that they are in a safe school where the possibility of shootings, rampages or murder are extremely low thanks to protection.

Some private schools could also not have them, if that's what they wanted. Public education is a shithole anyway, and probably doomed, so it shouldn't be dealt with. Just let it die.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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