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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3158779 -

Iraq also held elections. Saddam always won.

But how fair do you think they were? Wouldn't political opponents of Saddam have had quite a hard time?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3159066 -

Saddam won 99.9% of the vote in the last one.  do you really believe it was a just and fair election :wtf:

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3159593 -

Precisely. And they were an armed population.

no one has claimed that it is impossible for an armed populace (meaning how many people, with how many guns, and with what training?) to have any amount of tyranny whatsoever exerted against them. if someone had, this iraq example would demolish such a claim.

the article proved that a few citizens with guns were not 100% effective in preventing tyranny. no surprises there. what it did not prove is that it is completely impossible for armed citizens to forcefully replace their government. that would be absurd. revolution anyone?

Can you provide an example within the last 200 years since the development of weaponry?

sure. i've kept the list down to only modern revolutions and only ones involving widespread armed uprising by private citizens. revolutions more than 100 years ago are not included, nor are military coups, bloodless revolutions, etc.

1910 - armed mexicans overthrow porfio diaz

1911 - armed chinese overthrow the qing dynasty in china

1917 - armed russians overthrow monarchy

1918 - armed germans overthrow kaiser wilhelm

1949 - armed chinese revolution under mao

1954 - armed vietnamese expel french

1954-1962 - armed algerians expel french imperialists

1959 - armed cuban revolution under castro

1979 - armed nicaraguans overthrow the somoza regime

1964-1975 - armed mozambiquians expel portugese

1967 - armed south yemenis expel british

1975 - armed angolans expel portugese

1978 - armed afghanis expels soviets

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3163176 -

no one has claimed that it is impossible for an armed populace (meaning how many people, with how many guns, and with what training?) to have any amount of tyranny whatsoever exerted against them

So why do the NRA talk about an armed population preventing tyranny? Why do several of the more rabid lunatics on this board say if the jews were armed they would have prevented the holocaust?

only ones involving widespread armed uprising by private citizens

You're still missing the point. What role did the legal availability of guns have in any of these revolutions?

1978 - armed afghanis expels soviets

So you don't think the stinger missiles helped a little? :rolleyes:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3163190 -

Actually, the Soviet-Afghan war was 1979-1989; with the initial invasion in December of '79. And no, contrary to popular belief, the Afghan Arabs weren't armed by the CIA. Read some of Peter Bergen's books.


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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3163895 -


So why do the NRA talk about an armed population preventing tyranny?

maybe it's because it often (but not always; see iraq) does?

What role did the legal availability of guns have in any of these revolutions?

um... they were used in the hands of private citizens to overthrow their governments.

So you don't think the stinger missiles helped a little?

maybe, but they wouldn't have meant shit if the rebels hadn't also had rifles.

are you denying the fact that civilians with guns have overthrown their governments on several occasions in recent history?

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3164035 -

Anyone with an ounce of sense could understand that a people could be armed with any sort of weapons but if they choose not to resist, the weapons will not be used and their existence does not matter. However should they choose to resist, all that is necessary is for people to make the cost of the opposing forces actions too high to continue - they do not have to conquer the opposing force. Also, F16s and related equipment make poor weapons systems in a domestic guerilla situation where those who use them are in danger of destroying their own infrastructure and losing any support they have among their own populace.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (09/22/04 09:26 AM)

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3164575 -

maybe it's because it often (but not always; see iraq) does?

Often? I'm still waiting for a single example where the legal availability of guns in shops had anything to do with a revolution. Pretty much every example you mention was the work of groups who certainly didn't get their arms from the local K-mart.

um... they were used in the hands of private citizens to overthrow their governments.

um..no they wern't. Are you trying to say those cases you mention were spontaneous uprisings of millions of ordinary people armed with weapons from the local shop? Nonsense. They were usually small guerilla groups.

btw, if your theory held true then the Taliban would have been overthrown by the Afghan people wouldn't it?

maybe, but they wouldn't have meant shit if the rebels hadn't also had rifles.

You're still missing the point mush. The Afghanistan resistance consisted of small armies funded and armed from outside forces. They wern't going to the local Kmart and picking up a rifle for christ's sake.

And no, stinger missiles were a helluva lot more important than having a rifle apeice. It meant the soviets couldn't fly over their positions in helicopters.

are you denying the fact that civilians with guns have overthrown their governments on several occasions in recent history?

No, I'm denying gun ownership among the general population has any effect in preventing tyranny.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3165413 -

do you believe that all of the revolutions i listed would have been succesful even if the citizens had not had small arms such as rifles?

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3168143 -

Yes.

Serious guerilla groups do not get their arms by walking into the local store and saying "I'd like 15 AK-47, a rocket launcher and 20 tons of semtex. I'll drop by and pick them up next monday".

Can you guess why?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3169530 -

Yes.

seriously? did you understand the question?

rifles are the backbone of any army, especially a guerrilla army.

do you believe that rifles are worthless as weapons of war?

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3169559 -

do you believe that rifles are worthless as weapons of war?

Eh? Where did this one come from? We're talking about whether the legal availability of arms has any effect on preventing tyranny. Guerilla armies don't generally depend on buying arms from the local shop. For good reason they have other supply routes for weaponry than ordering them from K-mart.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3169583 -

Where did this one come from?

if rifles are useful as weapons of war, then citizens with rifles can be useful soldiers at war.

they can assist regular military units in repelling an invader, or restoring order after a catastrophe. they can assist a foreign liberator in ousting a domestic tyrant. in a civil war scenario, they can assist regular military units against a rebellion, or assist rebel military units against the old regime.

do go off about where they acquired the weapons from. it's completely irrelevent. citizens with rifles make effective soldiers in a crisis. it doesn't matter if they get them from k-mart or from gunrunners.

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3170038 -

if rifles are useful as weapons of war, then citizens with rifles can be useful soldiers at war.

That doesn't follow at all mush. If you are a guerilla army fighting a tyranny it's no use pissing away your weaponry to every stranger in a city. It's no use telling every citizen with a rifle what your next target is. That simply isn't how you run a guerilla army. You need a select group that you can trust and that will use the weaponry you provide. Redneck yahoos running round with their own assault rifles are a liability.

they can assist regular military units in repelling an invader

I thought we were talking about the NRA myth that an armed citizenry protects against tyranny?

they can assist regular military units against a rebellion

Who says? What good are thousands of untrained yahoos running around with automatic weapons to military units? They're liable to kill more of their own side than the enemy.

or assist rebel military units against the old regime.

Bullshit. You do not tell your military plans to every fucking yahoo with his own assault rifle. One of them is going to straight over to the other side and tell them every thing he knows about you.

do go off about where they acquired the weapons from. it's completely irrelevent

Don't be silly. The entire NRA point is having legal guns in shops somehow prevents tyranny or helps guerilla armies fight. It doesn't. You do not depend on Kmart to equip an guerilla army.

it doesn't matter if they get them from k-mart or from gunrunners.

It does if you expect to win.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3170232 -

The entire NRA point is having legal guns in shops somehow prevents tyranny or helps guerilla armies fight. It doesn't. You do not depend on Kmart to equip an guerilla army.

actually their point is not about guns in shops, but in the hands of private citizens. is a gun from a gun runner any better at equipping guerrillas than the same gun from a store?

It does if you expect to win.

is a gun from a gun-runner any better at equipping guerrillas than the same gun from a store?

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3173244 -

but in the hands of private citizens

And what does the private citizen do when he runs out of ammo? Do you expect a guerilla army to distribute precious ammo to every yahoo who wants it?

is a gun from a gun-runner any better at equipping guerrillas than the same gun from a store?

Yes. Because the authorities are likely to be able to control your weapons supply if you are buying them from the store. They are also likely to drop high explosives on you when you call to collect your order.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3174108 -

Yes. Because the authorities are likely to be able to control your weapons supply if you are buying them from the store.

well of course, when guns are highly regulated or illegal, going to a gun store probably isn't the best way to get weapons. i'm talking about a situation where they aren't. there is some circular logic at work here that i hope you can recognize.

listen alex... i've disagreed with you about many things in the past. we've had rather long "debates" where i've watched you reject simple, easily proven, and widely accepted propositions. the fact that people exchange things with eachother because it offers benefits of efficiency is a good example. the fact that a price floor causes a surplus is another. this thread, on the other hand, is a complex problem requiring analysis of historical events, military strategy and scenarios, current political and social conditions, etc. i shudder to think of how much time i might waste on this thread if i don't stop right now. i'm done with this one. it's pointless.

Edited by mushmaster (09/24/04 09:04 AM)

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3174426 -

well of course, when guns are highly regulated or illegal, going to a gun store probably isn't the best way to get weapons. i'm talking about a situation where they aren't

But you do grasp that a guerilla group needs to get it's weapons from another source than local shops?

And if the guerilla group needs to get it's weapons from another source what difference does it make whether or not they are sold in the local store?

i've watched you reject simple, easily proven, and widely accepted propositions.

Oh dear, not this vague bullshit again. Try and stick to specific arguments that I can reply to you on. Not vague, unanswerable comments.

You've said that an armed citizenry prevents the rise of tyranny, I've given you a series of simple, easily proven and widely accepted propositions why it doesn't.

the fact that people exchange things with eachother because it offers benefits of efficiency is a good example.

Are you talking about the recent thread where you defined "trade" as "efficiency" and several people pointed out to you the obvious and undeniable fact that trade is defined as trade?

And this is your best example?

the fact that a price floor causes a surplus is another

I can't remember ever arguing this with you. Link?

is a complex problem requiring analysis of historical events, military strategy and scenarios, current political and social conditions, etc.

So you at least accept the NRA myth that "an armed citizenry prevents tyranny" is a myth and that there are far more important factors at play?

Then we agree.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
    #3174983 -

Link?

what is a price floor on the price of labor called?

what is a surplus of labor called?

so... do you believe that price floors create surplusses or no?

if yes, what's different about labor?

(if you actually want to answer these questions, and you feel that the answers you come up with are valid enough to withstand scrutiny, feel free to start a new thread for them... i'm not gonna address them in this thread.)

Then we agree.

don't be a brat alex. you know we're not in agreement here.

i won't be responding to your next post in this thread.

there you go... have the last word...

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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
    #3177745 -

I asked you for a link, not a series of questions. Do you have one?

And do I gather by your resounding silence regarding the "trade" issue you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on?

if you actually want to answer these questions feel free to start a new thread for them

You want me to start a new thread to answer YOUR questions? Er..how about you start new threads to ask your questions and I start new threads to ask mine?

Deal?

don't be a brat alex.

Jeez, and all that hysterical whining you posted yesterday saying "Don't attack my character"  :rolleyes:

i won't be responding to your next post in this thread

If your points have been demolished this is the wisest option.

In future perhaps you could think things through a little more before you begin and save us the bother of "debating" for 2 pages?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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