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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Registered: 08/19/03
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Revolt in Iraq
    #2526247 - 04/05/04 02:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It appears that American forces are facing a Shiite uprising. I'd say the proverbial shit has hit the fan.

33 Die, Including 10 GIs, After Shi'ite Call to Revolt

A Young Radical's Anti-U.S. Wrath Is Unleashed

^ This link has more of a background on the moderate Shiite leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

:nonono:


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"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2526613 - 04/05/04 05:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Mr. Sadr, 31, is the son of a revered Shiite cleric who was assassinated in 1999 by hit men under the rule of Saddam Hussein. He comes from a long line of clerics. A famous uncle was also silenced by Mr. Hussein in 1980.

Mr. Sadr had two older brothers, but they were killed with his father, leaving him the heir apparent."


If those brutalized by Saddam Hussein (non-loyalists) hate the US occupation, what does that tell the West?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2526640 - 04/05/04 06:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it tells the west that the popular line "we are liberating iraq from the tyrant hussien" is generally seen as a crock of shit by those who have supposedly been "liberated".
the whole idea that the people of an illegaly occupied soverign nation should be "joyful and elated" at the presence of an agressive foreign army flies in the face of reality.


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Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Hanky]
    #2527147 - 04/05/04 12:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

the whole idea that the people of an illegaly occupied soverign nation should be "joyful and elated" at the presence of an agressive foreign army flies in the face of reality.

Interestingly enough, many of the same people who are stockpiling small arms in order to be able to go to war with their own government at a moment's notice are the same ones who who think that Iraqis should be happy to have the US military occupying their country. Funny how if the US government occupies a foreign country it suddenly becomes "Us" while when it acts in the only nation in which it has any legal mandate to act it is thought of as "Them."


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2527199 - 04/05/04 12:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I've wondering about that too Echo. The same people who advocate US civilians launching guerilla attacks on occupying forces get really upset when the Iraqis do the same thing.


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Anonymous

Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2527216 - 04/05/04 01:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i've got no problem with iraqis fighting against american occupiers. they've got a right to do that, expecially when the occupation has taken to doing such things as shutting down newspapers and banning personal arms.

my regret is that most of these militants represent those calling for an islamic state, which though unfavorable, is probably inevitable in a part of the world where islam is so widespread, given the nature of that religion.


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2527231 - 04/05/04 01:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Who would that be? I've never met any of these people.

Did you just make that up?


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2527273 - 04/05/04 01:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i've got no problem with iraqis fighting against american occupiers. they've got a right to do that, expecially when the occupation has taken to doing such things as shutting down newspapers and banning personal arms.

That's why I said "many" of the same people, not "all," as I am aware that certain people, such as yourself and Evolving, are more rigorously consistent in the application of your beliefs than others.

Now, try saying what you just said in public on any street in America. Free speech in reality only goes as far as self-censorship in the interest of self-preservation allows it to.

my regret is that most of these militants represent those calling for an islamic state, which though unfavorable, is probably inevitable in a part of the world where islam is so widespread, given the nature of that religion.

There's a bit of folk wisdom that goes "The devil you know is better than the one you don't." Now, folk wisdom is often stubbornly conservative and resistant to new ideas, and quite often wrong, but in this case the quotation might be worth considering because, whatever shape the new Iraq winds up taking, it's probably not going to be rosy fantasy concocted by the planners of the war. After all, they were wrong about everything else.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2527279 - 04/05/04 01:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Who would that be? I've never met any of these people.





Oh, only a goodly proportion of the membership of the NRA, who cite defense against government tyranny as a justification for the right to bear arms but support Bush's Iraq war at the same time.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #2527458 - 04/05/04 02:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Yeah, I've wondering about that too Echo. The same people who advocate US civilians launching guerilla attacks on occupying forces get really upset when the Iraqis do the same thing.




What are you talking about?


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2527474 - 04/05/04 02:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EchoVortex said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Who would that be? I've never met any of these people.





Oh, only a goodly proportion of the membership of the NRA, who cite defense against government tyranny as a justification for the right to bear arms but support Bush's Iraq war at the same time.




This is ridiculous. The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with carrying around AK-47s and RPGs, guerilla warfare and terrorism. I guess we should worry about the NRA setting roadside bombs and attacking hotels with mortars. What a weak connection.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2527491 - 04/05/04 02:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i've got no problem with iraqis fighting against american occupiers. they've got a right to do that, expecially when the occupation has taken to doing such things as shutting down newspapers and banning personal arms.

my regret is that most of these militants represent those calling for an islamic state, which though unfavorable, is probably inevitable in a part of the world where islam is so widespread, given the nature of that religion.




Your premise seems to be that Americans are in Iraq just to oppress people so it is ok to kill them and any Iraqi civilians in the process. It seems faulty to base the justification for murder on such a flimsy argument, US troops are attempting to restore order and repair infrastructure so they can LEAVE. It's all right to kill Americans for fixing the electrical grid, or the water supply, or providing medical aide to children injured in the war. Yeah, those are things Iraqis need to resist.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Anonymous

Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2527702 - 04/05/04 03:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

whether they are there as oppressors or liberators matters little. they are an occupying power in a foreign land and they are armed. if some of the people of iraq wish to pressure them to leave, even violently, i think they've got a right to do that. i don't agree with the resistance or their political ambitions, but as long as they confine their attacks to enemy soldiers, i don't think that there is anything directly wrong with that. it's war.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2527720 - 04/05/04 03:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

riiiight. we're just there to FIX things...
the thanks we get
those ungrateful Iraqis


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Anonymous

Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2527763 - 04/05/04 03:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

these guys are religious nuts who would much rather have an oppressive theocracy (as called for by islam) than a representative, constitutionally-limited government. while i don't agree with their vision for iraq, i can't say that i totally oppose the use of force to expel a foreign occupier. i dunno. i'm sortof on the fence with this one. i'm interested to see how things go this summer.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2527793 - 04/05/04 03:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This is ridiculous. The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with carrying around AK-47s and RPGs, guerilla warfare and terrorism. I guess we should worry about the NRA setting roadside bombs and attacking hotels with mortars. What a weak connection.

With being new you've missed the countless threads where NRA supporters have insisted being armed is a good thing because civilians can carry out guerilla warfare on any occupiers.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2527811 - 04/05/04 03:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

than a representative, constitutionally-limited government.

Representative of who? Are we talking guys like Ahmed Chalabi, a US backed convicted embezzler? Who is he representative of except American business interests?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2527836 - 04/05/04 03:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah they are religious nuts. seems the world is full of them.
but those shiites that are revolting now are also one the oppressed groups we were supposedly there to "liberate" from Saddam, and they had been relatively peaceful up to this point. it would be a huge setback for the occupation to have the shiites turn against them


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Anonymous

Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #2527857 - 04/05/04 03:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

representative of the iraqi people and guaranteeing basic human rights. they aren't fighting merely against chalabi, but any government short of the type called for by islam. they want islam, not freedom or justice.

i doubt that there is anything that can fuck up a society any more that fanatical devotion to a religion such as islam. that part of the world is truly messed up. i am really curious to see how this will pan out.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2528255 - 04/05/04 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

representative of the iraqi people and guaranteeing basic human rights.

Looking at this from another angle, would you accept another country invading the US and choosing the government?

they want islam, not freedom or justice.

And the american puppets want "freedom and justice"?

i am really curious to see how this will pan out.

Think it might've been better leaving Saddam in charge after all?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #2528422 - 04/05/04 06:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think you make a faulty premise that America and Bush are evil,and based in your reality it is impossible for them to have good intentions, or for the coalition to do anything positive. Thus the emerging Iraqi government must be "american puppets" and against freedom and justice, anything the US does must be evil in nature, and any resistance must be good. What a narrow and counterintuitive way to look at things.

Regarding invading another country and choosing the government, I don't think the people of Yugoslavia minded too much, and neither did the left wing bitch about it. Moreover, Milosevich didn't even kill a fraction of the people that Saddam Hussein has, yet removing him is humanitarian intervention, but removing Saddam is a crime? It all boils down to politics: if a democrat does it it is ok, if a republican does it its unjust, murder, imperialism, etc.

Lastly, I think your point of view is heavily skewed and unrealistid if you still believe Iraq was better under Saddam. A Zogby poll even showed that %70 of Iraqis are glad he is gone, and most of them look forward to the future. Saddam Hussein killed millions, not Bush. You have no case that America is the bad guy. Saddam tortured and murdered, the "resistance" targets civilians, while the US pays for the medical treatment of wounded enemies and civilians. There is no comparison.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2528575 - 04/05/04 07:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I think you make a faulty premise that America and Bush are evil,and based in your reality it is impossible for them to have good intentions, or for the coalition to do anything positive. Thus the emerging Iraqi government must be "american puppets" and against freedom and justice, anything the US does must be evil in nature, and any resistance must be good. What a narrow and counterintuitive way to look at things.




Opposed to to americas heart felt 'good intentions' to save the iraqies from a heinous evil?  Revolution rarely comes from a foregin army friend, and history shows men and governments in power rarely have such kind compasionate veiws. :lol:

I think its time you stop dismissing other arguments with your above statement...i know your convincing to yourself, but try and keep an open mind. :wink:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2528591 - 04/05/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thus the emerging Iraqi government must be "american puppets" and against freedom and justice...

For a moment forget Left-Wing/Right-Wing and moral/immoral. What do you seriously think will happen if the "Iraqi people" (whoever they are!) choose a government that is in diametric opposition to America's goals?

1. America will do everything possible to install a "puppet government".

2. America will never let it happen in the first place.

3. America will send Iraq on it's merry way with full blessings even though the majority may choose a highly oppressive fundamentalist regime that favors only certain groups and does not want diplomatic relations with the US.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2528939 - 04/05/04 08:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I think you make a faulty premise that America and Bush are evil,and based in your reality it is impossible for them to have good intentions, or for the coalition to do anything positive. Thus the emerging Iraqi government must be "american puppets" and against freedom and justice, anything the US does must be evil in nature, and any resistance must be good. What a narrow and counterintuitive way to look at things.




Opposed to to americas heart felt 'good intentions' to save the iraqies from a heinous evil?  Revolution rarely comes from a foregin army friend, and history shows men and governments in power rarely have such kind compasionate veiws. :lol:

I think its time you stop dismissing other arguments with your above statement...i know your convincing to yourself, but try and keep an open mind. :wink:





I think making a totalizing decision about America's motives is not wise, nor is it indicative of an "open mind". I don't think it is very realistic to cast Bush in Co. in the most diabolical and evil caricatures as possible. I will never know the true motives of the coalition, but as best as I can reason the post-colonial/marxist way of simplifying the situation is not plausible.

It seems to me that in this case a free democratic Iraq, without Saddam Hussein, and with a positive opinion of America IS in the US's best interest, and I see no reason to monolithicaly dismiss the sincerity of the Administration. It is impossible to accurately generalize, but it seems that for the most part America is trying to accomplish something positive with good intention. Being cynical by default is not being open minded.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #2528961 - 04/05/04 08:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We probably should have just detonated a nuclear bomb in Bagdad and made it look like Al Qaeda did it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2528984 - 04/05/04 09:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think making a totalizing decision about America's motives is not wise, nor is it indicative of an "open mind". I don't think it is very realistic to cast Bush in Co. in the most diabolical and evil caricatures as possible. I will never know the true motives of the coalition, but as best as I can reason the post-colonial/marxist way of simplifying the situation is not plausible.



This isn't casting them in the most diabolical and evil caricature. This is assuming that people who are politicians have political motives. Not a very big leap of logic if you ask me.

Quote:

It seems to me that in this case a free democratic Iraq, without Saddam Hussein, and with a positive opinion of America IS in the US's best interest, and I see no reason to monolithicaly dismiss the sincerity of the Administration. It is impossible to accurately generalize, but it seems that for the most part America is trying to accomplish something positive with good intention. Being cynical by default is not being open minded.



The problem with democracy in Iraq is that it actually involves the people of Iraq choosing their government, which is too big a risk for the power-mongers in Washington to take.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #2529257 - 04/05/04 10:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, if they choose a non-democratic government is that democracy? I think it is important for Iraq to understand the benefits a liberal democracy before handing over power. The people in Iraq have never lived under a democracy before. That is why we should not cut and run and let the Islamic extremists take over. Stablility is a must before you can let the people have a say. If that takes 'puppets' so be it. Better that then handing Iraq over to Hamas.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2529266 - 04/05/04 10:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So, in other words, you have no problem brainwashing them into seeing things our way. Got it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #2529345 - 04/05/04 10:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If there is a peaceful majority who is capable of running their own country as a democracy, then we have an obligation not to allow it to fall into millitant extremist's hands by initiation of force to gain control.

If they are incapable of and/or uninterested in living that way, then fuck `em. If they run their country into the ground, then we have no obligation to lift a finger to help them. If in the future it becomes apparent that they are in fact harboring people who are launching attacks against us, or our allies, then we have no obligation to recognize their soverignty and can invade at will without concern for obtaining anyone's permission or blessing.


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
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OfflinePhred
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #2529346 - 04/05/04 10:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm curious, silversoul7.

1) What parts of the provisional Iraqi Constitution drafted and approved by the IGC do you find objectionable?

2) What parts do you believe Iraqis find objectionable?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #2529364 - 04/05/04 10:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What? Where'd that come from? I don't believe I made any reference to the Iraqi Constitution. I haven't read it yet, so I can't say.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #2529457 - 04/05/04 11:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If you haven't read it yet, I suggest you do so before making more comments about "brainwashing them into seeing things our way".

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #2529476 - 04/05/04 11:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That comment was based on what the other person was advocating, not based on the constitution.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2529575 - 04/05/04 11:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say the proverbial shit has hit the fan.

You mean the Shiite has hit the fan....


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2529715 - 04/06/04 12:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It seems to me that in this case a free democratic Iraq, without Saddam Hussein, and with a positive opinion of America IS in the US's best interest, and I see no reason to monolithicaly dismiss the sincerity of the Administration. It is impossible to accurately generalize, but it seems that for the most part America is trying to accomplish something positive with good intention. Being cynical by default is not being open minded.




Deposing Saddam while noble was not a good thing for the interests of the U.S.

Stability is not going to happen. Rumsfield did not listen to the military when they were planning this thing and has not committed enough troops to bring stability to the region. It is a lot easier to capture territory than hold it.

We disbanded the Iraqi army. This is the other reason stability is not going to happen. Iraq's army was an aggressive tool for Saddam under his reign. It was also a detterent to its neighbors. Iraq has more than oil, it controls a lot of water in a water poor area. Somebody is going to have to guard the well and it is not going to be any civilian police force.

Clinton should not have sent troops to Yugoslovia. Clintons mistake does not in any way excuse the blunder that this adminstration has committed.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: falcon]
    #2529930 - 04/06/04 01:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:

Deposing Saddam while noble was not a good thing for the interests of the U.S.

Stability is not going to happen. Rumsfield did not listen to the military when they were planning this thing and has not committed enough troops to bring stability to the region. It is a lot easier to capture territory than hold it.

We disbanded the Iraqi army. This is the other reason stability is not going to happen. Iraq's army was an aggressive tool for Saddam under his reign. It was also a detterent to its neighbors. Iraq has more than oil, it controls a lot of water in a water poor area. Somebody is going to have to guard the well and it is not going to be any civilian police force.

Clinton should not have sent troops to Yugoslovia. Clintons mistake does not in any way excuse the blunder that this adminstration has committed.




Your argument is fair and consitent. I would disagree in that a) as the main superpower the US does have a pretty big responsibility to keep the world secure, and b) democracy in Iraq could help the democratic revolution in Iran and stablize Afghanistan, and ultimately give the Arab world an example of a working system other than monarchy or theocracy. If the Arabs embraced democratic reform, chances are they wouldn't project so much of their discontent at us.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Anonymous

Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #2531068 - 04/06/04 12:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Looking at this from another angle, would you accept another country invading the US and choosing the government?

i am. personally, if i were an iraqi, i would welcome and support the efforts of the united states and its allies to foster the creation of a constitutional government. i sure as hell wouldn't support the fundamentalists.

look at it from this angle... even if the majority of iraqis, left completely to their own devices, were to create a just government, would the fundamentalist minority be happy?

And the american puppets want "freedom and justice"?

i really don't know. i haven't been keeping up with the political process that has been going on in iraq and i haven't even read the new constitution. i'm not talking about the americans. i'm talking about the militant fundamentalists and what they want. they would not accept a secular, democratic, and constitutionally-limited government. they would only accept a caliphate, enforcing oppressive muslim law, as is called for by islam.

Think it might've been better leaving Saddam in charge after all?

probably not. we'll see what happens.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2531082 - 04/06/04 12:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

personally, if i were an iraqi, i would welcome and support the efforts of the united states and its allies to foster the creation of a constitutional government.

Depends doesn't it. If you'd had your wife and kids slaughtered in an american bombing you might be thinking differently.

even if the majority of iraqis, left completely to their own devices, were to create a just government, would the fundamentalist minority be happy?

Depends. This is the trouble with declaring war on countries - it's the most surefire way known of encouraging support for extremist minorities. Right now I imagine people are rallying behind anyone with the balls to face down Bremer.

i'm talking about the militant fundamentalists and what they want.

But it's like Pol Pot rising out of the bombing of Cambodia. Devastating countries and bombing them back into the stone age isn't how you encourage democracy and reasonable politics.

probably not. we'll see what happens.

I'm not so sure. With civil war beckoning the last 20 years could have been a picnic compared to what the Iraqis have got coming. Like Afghanistan - if the americans had left the Russians to install a puppet government and leave 6 months later wouldn't it have been better for the Afghani people than 20 years of war?


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Anonymous

Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #2531163 - 04/06/04 01:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Depends doesn't it. If you'd had your wife and kids slaughtered in an american bombing you might be thinking differently.

i might. i'd probably harbor some resentment. i still wouldn't support the fundamentalists (especially when they are the ones who intentionally target civilians).

Depends. This is the trouble with declaring war on countries - it's the most surefire way known of encouraging support for extremist minorities.

no alex, the answer is no. the islamic fundamentalists wish to set up the sort of government that exists in iran. they want to set up an absolute theocracy with a muslim cleric as caliph, as is called for by their faith. islamic fundamentalists, by the very definition of the word, cannot be happy with anything less than government as prescribed by the koran. such a government is not just.

specifically, what sort of government do you think would be a just one for the people of iraq? what would it look like (specifically)?


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Offlinephi1618
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Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2531179 - 04/06/04 01:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

no alex, the answer is no. the islamic fundamentalists wish to set up the sort of government that exists in iran. they want to set up an absolute theocracy with a muslim cleric as caliphate, as is called for by their faith. islamic fundamentalists, by the very definition of the word, cannot be happy with anything less than government as prescribed by the koran. such a government is not just.




A majority of Iraqis are Shiite, and would probably like some form of explicitly Muslim government, even if not as extreme as Iran.
Unfortunately, religious demagogues have great influence in Iraq, and are using the US invasion to increase their power.

But, you knew that.
Personally, I would be willing to accept a less-than-perfect government in Iraq, for example a Shiite theocracy with accompanying oppression of Kurds and Sunnis, if it gets our military out of the country. Our concept of justice may just not have deep enough roots in Iraq to become common there.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2532280 - 04/06/04 06:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
It is impossible to accurately generalize, but it seems that for the most part America is trying to accomplish something positive with good intention. Being cynical by default is not being open minded.




Not cynical....realistic. The US has much to gain over there, and its alot of money to go liberate people on good intentions alone, think about it. Don't forget that bush himself laughs at the WMD claim, so self defense wasn't a viable reason.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Revolt in Iraq [Re: ]
    #2532406 - 04/06/04 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alex: "Depends doesn't it. If you'd had your wife and kids slaughtered in an american bombing you might be thinking differently. "

i might. i'd probably harbor some resentment

That qualifies as one of the most disingenous statements that I have ever heard.

the islamic fundamentalists wish to set up the sort of government that exists in iran. they want to set up an absolute theocracy with a muslim cleric as caliph, as is called for by their faith. islamic fundamentalists, by the very definition of the word, cannot be happy with anything less than government as prescribed by the koran.
Bingo! This is why civil war will prevail. There are three main factions; of which at least two of the groups (if not all) will be unhappy with most any government.

I have oft-repeated "Which Iraqi people?" when it was spoken of a government of and by the "Iraqi people".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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