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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5772383 - 06/20/06 02:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

you dont think I have a personal connection to this bullshit war?

I do not know what your military jargon means nor do I need to. The fact remains that you are ignorant of the enemy and willfully so. The fact remains the US will someday be defeated ala Vietnam - perhaps not with as many casualities, but just as gradually and as shamefully.

The "tactics" that you so proudly proclaim are a failure - they will not win the war. The US cannot defeat an insurgency like they would defeat an army. I am not the only individual who thinks so: U.S. using wrong tactics

Quote:


Experts: U.S. using wrong tactics
Fighting in Iraq likely to stay at same level

By Stephen J. Hedges
Washington Bureau
Published June 17, 2006

WASHINGTON -- Despite the recent killing of insurgent leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, some former military officials and experts worry that the U.S. has not learned the lessons of counterinsurgency warfare in Iraq and that, as a result, a significant improvement in the fighting may not be around the corner.

In confronting a frustratingly resilient insurgency, the U.S. is relying heavily on precision bombing, which destroys buildings and can kill civilians, generating ill will. Tactics used in house clearings have led to incidents such as an alleged massacre by Marines in the town of Haditha. Large incursions into the cities of Fallujah and Ramadi have bred dissatisfaction among ordinary Iraqis, violating a cardinal principle of counterinsurgency.

Pentagon leaders repeatedly have vowed to improve their counterinsurgency training, but only last year did the Army begin a revision of its tactics, and a new manual on the topic has not been warmly received. U.S. commanders in Iraq also have opened a counterinsurgency school in Iraq in an attempt to better confront the enemy.

But many specialists in this type of fighting, including recently retired military officers, worry that key lessons have not been learned three years into the war. Even as the military targets al-Zarqawi's apparent successor, Abu Ayyub al-Masri, they say killings of insurgent leaders will have a limited effect.

"It's about the will of the American people and the trust of the Iraqi people, and situations like Haditha attack both," said T.X. Hammes, a retired Marine colonel and Iraq veteran whose book on counterinsurgent warfare, "The Sling and the Stone," is considered a "must-read" among younger officers in Iraq. "Fighting insurgents is about not making any more enemies."

Despite his recent high-profile Camp David, Md., summit with his war Cabinet and select outside experts, there is little evidence that President Bush has made any changes to his strategy for Iraq.

Bush holds his ground

Indeed, during his surprise visit to Iraq on Tuesday and in a news conference upon returning to Washington on Wednesday, Bush repeated what he has said often about the U.S. military presence there.

"The policy of the United States government is to stand with this new government and help them succeed, and we will do what it takes to help them succeed," the president said.

The good news of the killing of al-Zarqawi all but eclipsed a run of negative developments in Iraq for the U.S. In mid-May the Pentagon acknowledged that it was investigating allegations that Marines might have shot 24 Iraqi citizens in Haditha in revenge for the roadside bomb attack that killed a Marine. Marine officers, the Pentagon suggested, might have covered up the incident.

The Haditha allegations prompted allegations of other alleged civilian shootings by U.S. troops. The military dismissed one as previously investigated, but eight Marines have been detained at Camp Pendleton, Calif., pending possible charges in a second case.

Though al-Zarqawi's demise has shifted the spotlight off Haditha, the shootings there could represent a dividing line in U.S. military operations in Iraq. Civilian deaths violate a primary rule of counterinsurgency doctrine, which emphasizes non-violent, community police actions that enhance personal security instead of endangering it.

The Haditha incident, still under Pentagon review, isn't the only suggestion that the U.S. counterinsurgency campaign is off track. Al-Zarqawi's bombing death aside, U.S. forces in Iraq have made frequent use of precision bombing as a means of targeting insurgents.

That tactic, while sometimes effective, can also lead to extensive civilian deaths and property damage.

A `losing' tactic

The increased use of air strikes, said G.I. Wilson, a retired Marine colonel who recently finished a second tour in Iraq and who writes frequently on fighting insurgents, "means that you're losing. A 500-pound bomb causes a lot of destruction."

One of the allegations of wrongful civilian deaths leveled at the military recently involved the destruction of an Iraqi home by a C-130 gunship. The U.S. military said it investigated a nighttime raid on the village of Ishaqi, about 55 miles north of Baghdad, and found that U.S. troops used proper force. An Iraqi human-rights group alleged that 11 civilians were wrongfully killed in Ishaqi, and citizens there alleged that a building was destroyed by the C-130 to conceal dead residents.

The same troubles have vexed U.S. troops in Afghanistan, where the Taliban enemy is more remote. Last month, the Afghan government complained that a U.S. bomb struck a village where Taliban suspects had taken refuge. Sixteen civilians died in that air strike, the government said. An estimated 20 Taliban fighters were also killed in the strike.

Bush said in December that about 30,000 Iraqi citizens had died "as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence." Although some of those deaths can be attributed to al-Zarqawi's campaign of car bombing and suicide attacks, Iraqi civilian deaths have continued in a spate of car bombings and shootings since al-Zarqawi's death.

The reasons for the missteps by U.S. troops can be traced to an ingrained Pentagon tradition of training and fighting for conventional war, with well-plotted battle lines and an easily distinguished enemy. The U.S. force in Iraq was slow to recognize the emergence of the Iraqi insurgency in 2003 and it has been reluctant to adopt counterinsurgency tactics. Commanders trained in heavy artillery assaults bristled at the notion of exposing troops on street patrols, interacting with Iraqi citizens and gathering intelligence on likely insurgents.

Gen. George Casey, the U.S. commander in Iraq, developed a counterinsurgency school there because, as one subordinate told The Washington Post, the task was not getting done during predeployment training in the U.S. In addition, Lt. Gen. Pete Chiarelli, commanding general of the multinational force in Iraq, is credited by many with putting a heavier emphasis on counterinsurgent tactics.

Hint of drawdown

The strain on U.S. troops during three years of war and the possible political necessity of reducing the U.S. presence in Iraq before the November congressional elections may play a part in any decision to cut the number of troops. Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, deputy director for regional operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, suggested last week that the force might be gradually be drawn down as the end of normal seven-month and yearlong rotations are completed.

"The overall strategy, it's important to remember, is not driven by numbers but by effect," Ham said. "And as the Iraqis are able to exercise greater responsibility and independence, then over time we would certainly like to see the U.S. number come down."

----------

shedges@tribune.com







so, there you go. keep getting angry and defensive - you and your ilk are wrong because you're ignorant and stubborn to adapt.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5772492 - 06/20/06 03:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Im curious. What war are you a veteran of. Desert Storm? Operation Iraqi Freedom?

Like i said im interested in the Intelligence factor of the war. My neighbor is ex CIA he is completely against the war and he's told me a lot about the major fuckups over there, Especially the Dale Stoffel mess but i wont go into detail over that. My stepdad was with a SOG unit in Vietnam and also participated in Operation Pheonix in Vietnam.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5772614 - 06/20/06 04:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

bI0 STATED : I do not know what your military jargon means nor do I need to


What a fucking paradox, you know the enemy, but you don't know the inner workings of the military? You deem it important to know so much about the enemy, and yet know shit about our troops?(Military Operations Urban Terrian, i.e. MOUNT) Why don't you re read your beloved Sun Tzu.


I know the strength of the American troops, we will win this, so keep reading your books, and you will be put in the shitcan, like the rest of the couch potato,armchair general wannabees.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: Vvellum]
    #5772640 - 06/20/06 04:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


so, there you go. keep getting angry and defensive - you and your ilk are wrong because you're ignorant and stubborn to adapt.




--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5772641 - 06/20/06 04:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Im curious. What war are you a veteran of. Desert Storm? Operation Iraqi Freedom?

Like i said im interested in the Intelligence factor of the war. My neighbor is ex CIA he is completely against the war and he's told me a lot about the major fuckups over there, Especially the Dale Stoffel mess but i wont go into detail over that. My stepdad was with a SOG unit in Vietnam and also participated in Operation Pheonix in Vietnam.





Afganistan and Operation Iraqi Freedom. I have allot of respect for Vietnam Vets. If your father was in a SOG he was one of the most ellite troops. He must have gone through some crazy shit.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5772769 - 06/20/06 04:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

He's fucked up in the head from it i can tell you that. He cant even watch anything about vietnam.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5774862 - 06/21/06 01:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****Post deleted Wrong place


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (06/21/06 01:28 PM)


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5776086 - 06/21/06 01:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What a fucking paradox, you know the enemy, but you don't know the inner workings of the military? You deem it important to know so much about the enemy, and yet know shit about our troops?(Military Operations Urban Terrian, i.e. MOUNT) Why don't you re read your beloved Sun Tzu




I know enough to know that the tactics employed will not bring peace and prosperity to Iraq. I know enough to say that the insurgency cannot be controlled or fought like a conventional warfare - which is all the tactics that the military is using is good for.

Quote:

I know the strength of the American troops, we will win this, so keep reading your books, and you will be put in the shitcan, like the rest of the couch potato,armchair general wannabees.




Yes, the military is strong, but strength will not "win" this situtation. If you do not understand this, then you are lost.

Recent examples: Vietnam, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Isreali occupation of Palastine, English occupation of Northern Ireland, etc.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: Vvellum]
    #5776130 - 06/21/06 01:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have had an epiphany.......I should listen to people who havent been to war, get there information from their media of choice,and make wrong historical references......all to change my view on the war!!!


But point in fact, I will have a spine and stick against the popular view in this forum. I will not cut and run. For those of you who hate and despise my sediment, the feeling is mutual. No one here will budge in their beliefs, and that is fine. Remember this thread, and the one who is correct can talk shit in the future. Trust me, I will be here to reap what I sow.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5776206 - 06/21/06 01:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I dont hate and despise your "sediment" - I just think you're unwilling to go against what the military does even when they are wrong. That was your training, no?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: Vvellum]
    #5776492 - 06/21/06 03:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

***Sentiment (damn whiskey)



I have my own mind.

Yes, while IN the military, there is no room for dissension, that gets people killed.

However, I am honorably discharged, and have looked at the war objectively. Do you think I like knowing that some of my best friends are dead? Wouldn't you think that, I, a disabled veteran,would be one of the most outspoken critics of the war, if I felt it was wrong?? This is my opinion and personal belief, not a programmed response from military training.


Its not to say that every disabled veteran is for the war either. I have had deep discussions with Vietnam Veterans for Peace, all of them vets, all against the war. I think you shouldn't lump veterans in either category. They have their own minds, just like you. I happen to take the opposite and unpopular stance. But one thing is for certain, dont prejudge me simply because I served my country.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5776559 - 06/21/06 03:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The fighting to me isnt the problem. Its the massive security problem that Iraq has. Their simply isnt a large enough military presence in Iraq to properly secure the entire country.

Back in the Civil war, when the Union had held occupied southern territory in the civil war they used to set up things called Federal Commisary departments, These commissaries fed the Southern populace, the intended reaction of this is for the southern populace to lose faith in the government.

If the Iraqi populace lose faith in their government it could spell disaster. Iraq could possibly split up into its own ethnic areas (shiites in the south, Sunni's towards the west, and the Kurds in the northeast.) Similar to the situation seen in the Balkans.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: Vvellum]
    #5776616 - 06/21/06 03:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
from the Art of War:

Hence the saying: If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.





If you like Sun Tzu check out Carl Von Clausewitz.

http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/CWZBASE.htm


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: Vvellum]
    #5777053 - 06/21/06 06:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:


I know enough to know that the tactics employed will not bring peace and prosperity to Iraq. I know enough to say that the insurgency cannot be controlled or fought like a conventional warfare - which is all the tactics that the military is using is good for.


Yes, the military is strong, but strength will not "win" this situtation. If you do not understand this, then you are lost.

Recent examples: Vietnam, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Isreali occupation of Palastine, English occupation of Northern Ireland, etc.




I'm sorry, but you do not "know" these things. Way smarter people than you disagree with you. Who will eventually be shown to be correct is yet unknown.

The only statement you made that is close to a certainty is that "strength will not "win" this situtation." Strength without resolve is weightlifting for the mirror. Utterly useless. Now, please, get the fuck out of the way and let the adults take care of the situation. Here's a lollipop.


--------------------


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5777835 - 06/21/06 09:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
... AK-47s...




... my M-16 A2 service rifle had a maximum effective range over twice the range of my enemy's weapon...




Incorrect. A .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO) has MUCH more range than a .223 Remington.
Quote:


Just because you can quote an excerpt from "the Art of War" does not mean you have a clue about war. Pick up a fucking rifle, hump 110 pounds of gear for 27 miles, in 115 degree heat, take on an ambush, kill the enemy, become close to mortally wounded, survive, look at your buddies wasted, stay awake at night feeling guilty for living, and then come fucking talk to me about war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Those that haven't been will never understand. I kinda like Jack Nicklas' statement in "A Few Good Men", basically, pick up a rifle and stand a post, or shut the fuck up.

I wonder what rock the liberals who were complaining about Afghanistan turning into "another Vietnam" went to? Ah, I guess you can't really bash America with that sort of news so, IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ bLAH BLAH BLAH.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5777848 - 06/21/06 09:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ooh-Rah for 03! If ya ain't 03, ya ain't shit. I did some 0331'ing before I went Army and 11Bravoed.

I wish we had a more starship troopers government system so that ignorant, easily misled duochebags couldn't participate.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5777862 - 06/21/06 09:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You are wrong.

Maximum effective RANGE....relates to accuracy. The M16A2 is much more accurate.


http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/JessicaWorrell.shtml

The M16 rifle has influenced many other designs of weapon. It has been used by armies in the US as well as Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Israel, and Britain. The version used currently is the M16A2 often referred to as "The Black Rifle". This rifle has been used in areas of desert heat and Arctic conditions and has still functioned reliably. The M16 has been regarded as a useful weapon and has been very popular. Today the only agencies in the US that do not use the M16 are the police, FBI, and Drug Enforcement Agency.

The range of a rifle bullet varies from 274 m to 880 m. The range is equal to the horizontal velocity multiplied by the time of flight. The range varies depending upon the angle that it is shot from. The maximum range occurs when the angle of elevation is to 45 degrees.

The Russian AK47 rifle has a range of only 150 m to 250 m. This is a much smaller range than that of the M16. The muzzle velocity is also much faster on the M16.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: Vvellum]
    #5777867 - 06/21/06 09:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
you and your ilk will never win this war. got that? never. why? because you do not know your enemy and therefore do not know how to win. you may be able to fight conventional armies in conventional battles, but this war is quite different from your training.



I'd say that 90% of my training, from Parris Island to Quantico to Fort Benning, dealt with dealing with small groups of insurgents in urban settings. The habeebs should thank you for not giving the US Military any advice, with your total knowledge of the situation, you'd win the war in about 3 minutes, right?
Quote:


you will lose eventually.
and you provide the exact reasons why.
thanks for demonstrating that.



Hardly.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5777893 - 06/21/06 10:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
You are wrong.

Maximum effective RANGE....relates to accuracy. The M16A2 is much more accurate.



Nope. It's not. The .308 Winchester has MUCH better ballistics. Now, does that mean that hajeeb can shoot his better than a trained 03 or army infantryman? Not likely. However, I can name HUNDREDS of "sniper" rifles built off of the .308 platform, and a few built off of the AK system, I can't think of many long range, military issue .223 sniper rifles that look like an AR. Freakin poodle shooters.
Quote:


The Russian AK47 rifle has a range of only 150 m to 250 m. This is a much smaller range than that of the M16. The muzzle velocity is also much faster on the M16.



150 meters with an AK? Laughable. My Romanian shoots about 1.5MOA, pretty "effective", I'd say.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The most powerful insurgent group in Iraq. [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5777915 - 06/21/06 10:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

We should test fire....I got a 75 round drum and a hellfire trigger on a Bulgrain Ak-47..........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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* George Bush In Iraq
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pattern 3,176 57 12/04/03 08:43 PM
by Phred

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