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 Xlea321
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 Iraqs rebuke to the NRA 
#3150873 - 09/18/04 02:45 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iraq's Rebuke to the NRA
If there are so many guns in Iraq, why is it still a dictatorship?
By Timothy Noah
Posted Friday, March 14, 2003, at 1:56 PM PT
In the March 11 New York Times, Neil MacFarquhar notes in passing, "Most Iraqi households own at least one gun." This comes as a shock to those of us who've been hearing for years from the gun lobby that widespread firearms ownership is necessary to prevent the United States from becoming a police state. Here, via the National Rifle Association's Web site, is Bill Pryor, attorney general of Alabama, decrying the "war on guns": "In a republic that promotes a free society, as opposed to a police state, one of the basic organizing principles is that individuals have a right of self-defense and a right to acquire the means for that defense." The basic Jeffersonian idea is that you never know when you'll need to organize a militia against your government. In director John Milius' camp Cold War classic Red Dawn, Russians and Nicaraguan commies take over the United States in part by throwing gun owners in jail. In one memorable scene, the camera pans from a bumper sticker that says "You'll Take My Gun Away When You Pry It From My Cold, Dead Fingers" to a Russian soldier prying a gun from the car owner's ? you get the idea.
The obvious question raised by MacFarquhar's piece is how Iraq got to be, and remains, one of the world's most repressive police states when just about everyone is packing heat. Chatterbox invites gun advocates (and Iraq experts) to e-mail (to chatterbox@slate.com) plausible reasons. The best of these will be examined in a follow-up item.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2080201/
chatterbox Gossip, speculation, and scuttlebutt about politics.
Iraq and the NRA: Reader Response
Why you can buy guns in Saddam's police state.
By Timothy Noah
Posted Friday, April 4, 2003, at 9:30 PM PT
Three weeks ago, Chatterbox wondered aloud how Iraq could be a police state given that, according to Neil MacFarquhar of the New York Times, "Most Iraqi households own at least one gun." Chatterbox had been given to understand, by the National Rifle Association, that widespread gun ownership was a Jeffersonian bulwark against unfree government. Why did it fail in Iraq? Chatterbox invited readers to explain. Here are the answers he got:
They've got guns, but the Iraqi regime has better guns. One unidentified reader notes that he saw only shotguns in the photograph illustrating MacFarquhar's article. The Washington Post's Anthony Shadid has explained why, notes reader Jared Pitts: "Gun stores can sell only hunting rifles and pistols. But AK-47s, the weapon of choice, are provided to millions of members of the ruling Baath Party and allied militias such as the one known as Saddam's Fedayeen."
A case can certainly be made that freedom-loving Iraqis should have the same access to AK-47s as the Fedayeen. But you can only take this argument so far. If every Iraqi citizen were free to own a weapons cache that matched that of Saddam Hussein, every Iraqi citizen could own chemical and biological weapons. Even Charlton Heston can't want that.
Iraqis are very poor shots. This is the funniest explanation Chatterbox received. Reader David Pinkerd says he's convinced that "the main reason they are always firing guns into the air is that [it] is the only thing they are assured of hitting."
MacFarquhar has it wrong. "Did the Times reporter do a national survey of Iraq?" inquired reader Dave Pinsen. Surely not. And it's true that Chatterbox has chided MacFarquhar before for making fanciful seat-of-the-pants estimates. But MacFarquhar's piece provided testimony from gun shop owners that ammunition sales had risen as much as 50 percent in the runup to the war. He also provided eyewitness evidence (at Baghdad's Target Gun Shop and Trigger Gun Shop) that guns and ammunition are still sold freely and openly in Iraq. Even if he didn't demonstrate that most families have guns, MacFarquhar did demonstrate that most families have easy access to guns if they want them. Which is practically the same thing.
The NRA's basic premise is false. Chatterbox resisted this logic as long as he could. But reader Richard Antill notes that the United Kingdom, Germany, France, and many other western democracies (most, in fact) regulate guns much more heavily than the U.S., yet manage not to turn into police states. Maybe he's onto something.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2081185/
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 Phred
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3151048 - 09/18/04 06:42 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The obvious question raised by MacFarquhar's piece is how Iraq got to be, and remains, one of the world's most repressive police states when just about everyone is packing heat.
Actually, the obvious question raised by MacFarquhar's piece is, "On what do you base your unsupported assertion that most Iraqi households own at least one gun"?
Quote:
Even if he didn't demonstrate that most families have guns, MacFarquhar did demonstrate that most families have easy access to guns if they want them. Which is practically the same thing.
No, it's not practically the same thing. Guns cost money. As countless verifiable stories have shown, prewar Iraqis on the whole didn't have a whole heck of a lot of spare change. I have free access to all the airplanes I want to buy, and so does every other person living on this island. That doesn't mean I can afford to buy one.
pinky
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retread
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Phred]
#3151191 - 09/18/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you want an airplane, I've currently got 6 Gulfstream 4's and 2 Lear's for sale. Totally "pimped" out, bedroom in each,plasma TV's. PM me if interested.
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Phred]
#3153130 - 09/19/04 11:12 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yet you accept that the legal availability of guns and an armed citizenry did absolutely nothing to prevent tyranny?
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3153760 - 09/19/04 08:05 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yet you accept that the legal availability of guns and an armed
citizenry did absolutely nothing to prevent tyranny?
I support gun legality for the following reasons:
1. Hunting.
2. Self-defense.
3. Firearms as a hobby.
The classic argument from the gun lobby is that the Constitution
clearly says that firearms are necessary in order for a populace to
have the ability to rebel against its government if it becomes to
oppressive. This document(and that basic premise) was conjured up
back when firearms were crude. All anybody had were rifles and
cannons. The lowliest farmer had a rifle that was the equivalent
of what a well-trained military soldier had. Therefore, this
Constitutional concept is a tad bit outdated because of the advance
in military weaponry.
Nowadays the military has incredible firepower, while the regular
populace has access to moderate firepower(we aren't allowed to own
fully functional fighter jets for example).
So yes, the argument that we need guns to oppose the standing military
is a tad bit ridiculous. The average citizen engaging in open
rebellion with a pistol or rifle would be mowed down by an attack
helicopter. However, I still think gun ownership is an integral
part of American citizenship for the three reasons I listed above.
Also, different cultures breed different circumstances. In the
Middle East they torture people. Saddam used to drop people into
wood chippers. It is a different world over there. The concepts
of liberty, democracy, and civil rights are probably barely
understood. When you have an environment like that, no matter how
many guns the populace might have, do you think they could ever
muster a successful effort at rebellion?
By the way, when the U.S. and the coalition left after the first
Gulf War, there was a massive rebellion against Saddam in Iraq.
I believe they managed to take control of a large amount of the
country. Unfortunately, Saddam ruthlessly put the rebellion down
and regained complete control.
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3153863 - 09/19/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yet you accept that the legal availability of guns and an armed citizenry did absolutely nothing to prevent tyranny?
it didn't completely prevent tyranny, but it may have helped contain it. are you inside saddam hussein's head? do you know what impact the fear of armed insurrection had on his policy decisions?
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vampirism
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3153884 - 09/19/04 08:28 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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so you're suggesting that the actions of the state can undermine any effectiveness that widespread gun availability can present?
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: vampirism]
#3153885 - 09/19/04 08:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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can you rephrase that?
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Ekstaza
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3153889 - 09/19/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I believe that they do not have the will to fight against their dictators. Some may have it but not the vast majority.
The same thing might be said of most americans as well if it came down to the wire. Already, freedoms are slowly being reduced with little popular discontentment.
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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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vampirism
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3153893 - 09/19/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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.
fine.
im not in a coherent mood, so i will actually try rephrasing that.
Guns provide citizens with the ability to revolt.
Are you saying the government can act to prevent that?
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: vampirism]
#3153965 - 09/19/04 08:44 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Guns provide citizens with the ability to revolt.
Are you saying the government can act to prevent that?
of course. they can start by not inciting the people to revolt.
what alex123 was saying was that because armed citizens were unable (unwilling) to overthrow the dictatorship, it is evident that an armed populace is useless as far as preventing tyranny goes.
this line of reasoning is flawed for two reasons. the first is that it ignores the scores of successful armed popular rebellions throughout history. the second is that armed citizens almost certainly had some role in limiting and containing tyranny in iraq. a despot in a nation of armed citizens knows that fear can only go so far and that there is a line that cannot be crossed, lest there be a popular insurrection widespread enough to threaten his hold on power. saddam hussein didn't cross that line. when the people are disarmed, there is no such line.
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3154824 - 09/20/04 12:25 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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line of reasoning is flawed for two reasons. the first is that it ignores the scores of successful armed popular rebellions
Could you list those where you believe having an armed populace had any relevance to the rebellion?
knows that fear can only go so far and that there is a line that cannot be crossed, lest there be a popular insurrection widespread enough to threaten his hold on power. saddam hussein didn't cross that line.
So you think Saddam was too scared to be really brutal because he was frightened of the population having guns?
That's a new one.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3155419 - 09/20/04 11:35 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Could you list those where you believe having an armed populace had any relevance to the rebellion?
pick any time in history where armed people have had to replace their government when it was unwilling to go voluntarily. the american and french revolutions are good examples. there are plenty more.
So you think Saddam was too scared to be really brutal because he was frightened of the population having guns?
you got it.
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Seuss
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Phred]
#3155478 - 09/20/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Actually, the obvious question raised by MacFarquhar's piece is, "On what do you base your unsupported assertion that most Iraqi households own at least one gun"?
... and, assuming that the statistic is accurate, when did they get the guns, before or after the fall of Saddam?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3155781 - 09/20/04 01:05 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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pick any time in history where armed people have had to replace their government when it was unwilling to go voluntarily
Saddam?
you got it.
So all that right-wing talk about Saddams brutality was a myth?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Seuss]
#3155784 - 09/20/04 01:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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when did they get the guns, before or after the fall of Saddam?
Before the fall of Saddam. As the article says - Baghdad's Target Gun Shop and Trigger Gun Shop sold arms openly.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3155879 - 09/20/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Saddam?
no. the iraqis did not replace saddam hussein. not a good example.
So all that right-wing talk about Saddams brutality was a myth?
no. i said that the extent of his tyranny was limited by the possibility of popular revolution. i did not say that it was eliminated.
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Johan Shultz
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3157396 - 09/20/04 07:20 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
...clearly says that firearms are necessary in order for a populace to
have the ability to rebel against its government if it becomes to
oppressive...
I own 3 shotguns(12,12,.410)and 5 rifles(30-06, 300mag, .308, .223, 22/250).All rifles are bolt action. All I see that we can do a lot with this kind of guns against our government
oah....almost forgot! I also have a BB gun 
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Mushmonkey
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Johan Shultz]
#3158556 - 09/20/04 11:41 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iraq also held elections. Saddam always won.
Did the election process fail? Is it worthless, if such a horrible dictator can still win year after year? Should we do away with our elections?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3158682 - 09/21/04 12:05 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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the iraqis did not replace saddam hussein
Precisely. And they were an armed population.
not a good example
Yet obviously a far better example than your 200 year old examples. Can you provide an example within the last 200 years since the development of weaponry?
i said that the extent of his tyranny was limited by the possibility of popular revolution
Source? Evidence? Or is this another fantasy you made up two days ago?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Mushmonkey]
#3158779 - 09/21/04 12:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iraq also held elections. Saddam always won.
But how fair do you think they were? Wouldn't political opponents of Saddam have had quite a hard time?
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Tao
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Mushmonkey]
#3159066 - 09/21/04 06:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Saddam won 99.9% of the vote in the last one. do you really believe it was a just and fair election 
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3159593 - 09/21/04 12:05 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Precisely. And they were an armed population.
no one has claimed that it is impossible for an armed populace (meaning how many people, with how many guns, and with what training?) to have any amount of tyranny whatsoever exerted against them. if someone had, this iraq example would demolish such a claim.
the article proved that a few citizens with guns were not 100% effective in preventing tyranny. no surprises there. what it did not prove is that it is completely impossible for armed citizens to forcefully replace their government. that would be absurd. revolution anyone?
Can you provide an example within the last 200 years since the development of weaponry?
sure. i've kept the list down to only modern revolutions and only ones involving widespread armed uprising by private citizens. revolutions more than 100 years ago are not included, nor are military coups, bloodless revolutions, etc.
1910 - armed mexicans overthrow porfio diaz
1911 - armed chinese overthrow the qing dynasty in china
1917 - armed russians overthrow monarchy
1918 - armed germans overthrow kaiser wilhelm
1949 - armed chinese revolution under mao
1954 - armed vietnamese expel french
1954-1962 - armed algerians expel french imperialists
1959 - armed cuban revolution under castro
1979 - armed nicaraguans overthrow the somoza regime
1964-1975 - armed mozambiquians expel portugese
1967 - armed south yemenis expel british
1975 - armed angolans expel portugese
1978 - armed afghanis expels soviets
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3163176 - 09/22/04 12:14 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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no one has claimed that it is impossible for an armed populace (meaning how many people, with how many guns, and with what training?) to have any amount of tyranny whatsoever exerted against them
So why do the NRA talk about an armed population preventing tyranny? Why do several of the more rabid lunatics on this board say if the jews were armed they would have prevented the holocaust?
only ones involving widespread armed uprising by private citizens
You're still missing the point. What role did the legal availability of guns have in any of these revolutions?
1978 - armed afghanis expels soviets
So you don't think the stinger missiles helped a little? 
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Zahid
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3163190 - 09/22/04 12:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Actually, the Soviet-Afghan war was 1979-1989; with the initial invasion in December of '79. And no, contrary to popular belief, the Afghan Arabs weren't armed by the CIA. Read some of Peter Bergen's books.
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3163895 - 09/22/04 08:05 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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So why do the NRA talk about an armed population preventing tyranny?
maybe it's because it often (but not always; see iraq) does?
What role did the legal availability of guns have in any of these revolutions?
um... they were used in the hands of private citizens to overthrow their governments.
So you don't think the stinger missiles helped a little?
maybe, but they wouldn't have meant shit if the rebels hadn't also had rifles.
are you denying the fact that civilians with guns have overthrown their governments on several occasions in recent history?
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Evolving
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3164035 - 09/22/04 09:25 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Anyone with an ounce of sense could understand that a people could be armed with any sort of weapons but if they choose not to resist, the weapons will not be used and their existence does not matter. However should they choose to resist, all that is necessary is for people to make the cost of the opposing forces actions too high to continue - they do not have to conquer the opposing force. Also, F16s and related equipment make poor weapons systems in a domestic guerilla situation where those who use them are in danger of destroying their own infrastructure and losing any support they have among their own populace.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (09/22/04 09:26 AM)
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3164575 - 09/22/04 12:02 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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maybe it's because it often (but not always; see iraq) does?
Often? I'm still waiting for a single example where the legal availability of guns in shops had anything to do with a revolution. Pretty much every example you mention was the work of groups who certainly didn't get their arms from the local K-mart.
um... they were used in the hands of private citizens to overthrow their governments.
um..no they wern't. Are you trying to say those cases you mention were spontaneous uprisings of millions of ordinary people armed with weapons from the local shop? Nonsense. They were usually small guerilla groups.
btw, if your theory held true then the Taliban would have been overthrown by the Afghan people wouldn't it?
maybe, but they wouldn't have meant shit if the rebels hadn't also had rifles.
You're still missing the point mush. The Afghanistan resistance consisted of small armies funded and armed from outside forces. They wern't going to the local Kmart and picking up a rifle for christ's sake.
And no, stinger missiles were a helluva lot more important than having a rifle apeice. It meant the soviets couldn't fly over their positions in helicopters.
are you denying the fact that civilians with guns have overthrown their governments on several occasions in recent history?
No, I'm denying gun ownership among the general population has any effect in preventing tyranny.
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3165413 - 09/22/04 03:20 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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do you believe that all of the revolutions i listed would have been succesful even if the citizens had not had small arms such as rifles?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3168143 - 09/23/04 12:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes.
Serious guerilla groups do not get their arms by walking into the local store and saying "I'd like 15 AK-47, a rocket launcher and 20 tons of semtex. I'll drop by and pick them up next monday".
Can you guess why?
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3169530 - 09/23/04 10:37 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes.
seriously? did you understand the question?
rifles are the backbone of any army, especially a guerrilla army.
do you believe that rifles are worthless as weapons of war?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3169559 - 09/23/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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do you believe that rifles are worthless as weapons of war?
Eh? Where did this one come from? We're talking about whether the legal availability of arms has any effect on preventing tyranny. Guerilla armies don't generally depend on buying arms from the local shop. For good reason they have other supply routes for weaponry than ordering them from K-mart.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3169583 - 09/23/04 10:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Where did this one come from?
if rifles are useful as weapons of war, then citizens with rifles can be useful soldiers at war.
they can assist regular military units in repelling an invader, or restoring order after a catastrophe. they can assist a foreign liberator in ousting a domestic tyrant. in a civil war scenario, they can assist regular military units against a rebellion, or assist rebel military units against the old regime.
do go off about where they acquired the weapons from. it's completely irrelevent. citizens with rifles make effective soldiers in a crisis. it doesn't matter if they get them from k-mart or from gunrunners.
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3170038 - 09/23/04 01:04 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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if rifles are useful as weapons of war, then citizens with rifles can be useful soldiers at war.
That doesn't follow at all mush. If you are a guerilla army fighting a tyranny it's no use pissing away your weaponry to every stranger in a city. It's no use telling every citizen with a rifle what your next target is. That simply isn't how you run a guerilla army. You need a select group that you can trust and that will use the weaponry you provide. Redneck yahoos running round with their own assault rifles are a liability.
they can assist regular military units in repelling an invader
I thought we were talking about the NRA myth that an armed citizenry protects against tyranny?
they can assist regular military units against a rebellion
Who says? What good are thousands of untrained yahoos running around with automatic weapons to military units? They're liable to kill more of their own side than the enemy.
or assist rebel military units against the old regime.
Bullshit. You do not tell your military plans to every fucking yahoo with his own assault rifle. One of them is going to straight over to the other side and tell them every thing he knows about you.
do go off about where they acquired the weapons from. it's completely irrelevent
Don't be silly. The entire NRA point is having legal guns in shops somehow prevents tyranny or helps guerilla armies fight. It doesn't. You do not depend on Kmart to equip an guerilla army.
it doesn't matter if they get them from k-mart or from gunrunners.
It does if you expect to win.
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3170232 - 09/23/04 01:55 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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The entire NRA point is having legal guns in shops somehow prevents tyranny or helps guerilla armies fight. It doesn't. You do not depend on Kmart to equip an guerilla army.
actually their point is not about guns in shops, but in the hands of private citizens. is a gun from a gun runner any better at equipping guerrillas than the same gun from a store?
It does if you expect to win.
is a gun from a gun-runner any better at equipping guerrillas than the same gun from a store?
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Xlea321
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3173244 - 09/24/04 12:19 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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but in the hands of private citizens
And what does the private citizen do when he runs out of ammo? Do you expect a guerilla army to distribute precious ammo to every yahoo who wants it?
is a gun from a gun-runner any better at equipping guerrillas than the same gun from a store?
Yes. Because the authorities are likely to be able to control your weapons supply if you are buying them from the store. They are also likely to drop high explosives on you when you call to collect your order.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3174108 - 09/24/04 08:34 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes. Because the authorities are likely to be able to control your weapons supply if you are buying them from the store.
well of course, when guns are highly regulated or illegal, going to a gun store probably isn't the best way to get weapons. i'm talking about a situation where they aren't. there is some circular logic at work here that i hope you can recognize.
listen alex... i've disagreed with you about many things in the past. we've had rather long "debates" where i've watched you reject simple, easily proven, and widely accepted propositions. the fact that people exchange things with eachother because it offers benefits of efficiency is a good example. the fact that a price floor causes a surplus is another. this thread, on the other hand, is a complex problem requiring analysis of historical events, military strategy and scenarios, current political and social conditions, etc. i shudder to think of how much time i might waste on this thread if i don't stop right now. i'm done with this one. it's pointless.
Edited by mushmaster (09/24/04 09:04 AM)
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3174426 - 09/24/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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well of course, when guns are highly regulated or illegal, going to a gun store probably isn't the best way to get weapons. i'm talking about a situation where they aren't
But you do grasp that a guerilla group needs to get it's weapons from another source than local shops?
And if the guerilla group needs to get it's weapons from another source what difference does it make whether or not they are sold in the local store?
i've watched you reject simple, easily proven, and widely accepted propositions.
Oh dear, not this vague bullshit again. Try and stick to specific arguments that I can reply to you on. Not vague, unanswerable comments.
You've said that an armed citizenry prevents the rise of tyranny, I've given you a series of simple, easily proven and widely accepted propositions why it doesn't.
the fact that people exchange things with eachother because it offers benefits of efficiency is a good example.
Are you talking about the recent thread where you defined "trade" as "efficiency" and several people pointed out to you the obvious and undeniable fact that trade is defined as trade?
And this is your best example?
the fact that a price floor causes a surplus is another
I can't remember ever arguing this with you. Link?
is a complex problem requiring analysis of historical events, military strategy and scenarios, current political and social conditions, etc.
So you at least accept the NRA myth that "an armed citizenry prevents tyranny" is a myth and that there are far more important factors at play?
Then we agree.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: Xlea321]
#3174983 - 09/24/04 12:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Link?
what is a price floor on the price of labor called?
what is a surplus of labor called?
so... do you believe that price floors create surplusses or no?
if yes, what's different about labor?
(if you actually want to answer these questions, and you feel that the answers you come up with are valid enough to withstand scrutiny, feel free to start a new thread for them... i'm not gonna address them in this thread.)
Then we agree.
don't be a brat alex. you know we're not in agreement here.
i won't be responding to your next post in this thread.
there you go... have the last word...
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Iraqs rebuke to the NRA [Re: ]
#3177745 - 09/25/04 01:00 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I asked you for a link, not a series of questions. Do you have one?
And do I gather by your resounding silence regarding the "trade" issue you realised you didn't have a leg to stand on?
if you actually want to answer these questions feel free to start a new thread for them
You want me to start a new thread to answer YOUR questions? Er..how about you start new threads to ask your questions and I start new threads to ask mine?
Deal?
don't be a brat alex.
Jeez, and all that hysterical whining you posted yesterday saying "Don't attack my character"
i won't be responding to your next post in this thread
If your points have been demolished this is the wisest option.
In future perhaps you could think things through a little more before you begin and save us the bother of "debating" for 2 pages?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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