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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Whither Gun Control?
    #2714057 - 05/22/04 07:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What do you want to bet that there are still people foolish enough to believe gun control will ever work?





Whither Gun Control?

Saturday, May 22, 2004
By John R. Lott, Jr.
What is happening to the gun control (search) movement?

This month, the Million Mom March (search) in Washington drew an anemic showing of only 2,000 people, while this year, all of the Democratic presidential candidates? however unenthusiastically? spoke of Americans? Second Amendment (search) right to own guns. These are just a few of the signs that the facts finally seem to be catching up to the movement. The future for the movement looks even worse.

Whether the subject is concealed handgun laws (search) or bans on semi-automatic so-called ?assault weapons,? (search) gun control debates have been filled with apocalyptic claims about what will happen if gun control is not adopted. One common prediction is that laws allowing the carrying of a concealed weapon will result in crime waves, or permit holders shooting others. However, with 37 states now having right-to-carry laws (search), and another nine states letting some citizens carry, permit holders have continually shown themselves to be extremely law-abiding. It is becoming more and more difficult to attack those laws.

Disarray among gun controllers is becoming common, even on one cornerstone of the gun control movement ? the semi-automatic gun ban. Take the statements made on National Public Radio by a representative of the Violence Policy Center (search) just one week after the assault weapon extension was defeated in the Senate this March.

NPR described the VPC as "one of the more aggressive gun groups in Washington." Yet the VPC's representative claimed: ?If the existing assault-weapons ban expires, I personally do not believe it will make one whit of difference one way or another in terms of our objective, which is reducing death and injury and getting a particularly lethal class of firearms off the streets. So if it doesn?t pass, it doesn?t pass.?

The NPR reporter noted: "[the Violence Policy Center's representative] says that's all the [assault-weapons ban] brought about, minor changes in appearance that didn't alter the function of these weapons.?

Yet, before the Senate vote the VPC had long claimed that it was a "myth" that "assault weapons merely look different. The NRA and the gun industry today portray assault weapons as misunderstood ugly ducklings, no different from other semi-automatic guns. But while the actions, or internal mechanisms, of all semi-automatic guns are similar, the actions of assault weapons are part of a broader design package. The 'ugly' looks of the TEC-9, AR-15, AK-47 and similar guns reflect this package of features designed to kill people efficiently."

So why the sudden disarray after the Senate defeat? Simply, gun-control groups' credibility is on the line and they are getting cold feet. With no academic research showing the assault weapons ban reduces crime, gun control groups realize that soon it will be obvious to everyone that their predicted horror stories about "assault weapons" were completely wrong.

Internationally, dramatic gun control victories in countries such as England, Australia, and Canada are also unraveling.

? Crime did not fall in England after handguns were banned in January 1997. Quite the contrary, crime rose sharply. Yet, serious violent crime rates from 1997 to 2002 averaged 29 percent higher than 1996; robbery was 24 percent higher; murders 27 percent higher. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned, the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.

? Australia has also seen its violent crime rates soar after its Port Arthur gun control measures (search) in late 1996. Violent crime rates averaged 32 per cent higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law in 1996. The same comparisons for armed robbery rates showed increases of 45 percent.

? The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the most recent survey done, shows that the violent crime rate in England and Australia was twice the rate in the US.

? Canada has not gone anywhere near as far as the United Kingdom or Australia. Nevertheless, their gun registration system is costing roughly a thousand times more than promised and has grown to be extremely unpopular, with only 17 percent of Canadians in a poll release this week supporting the system. Nor does the system seem to be providing any protection. The Canadian government recently admitted that they could not identify even a single violent crime that had been solved by registration.

Everyone wants to take guns away from criminals. The problem is that if the law-abiding citizens obey the laws and the criminals don?t, the rules create sitting ducks who cannot defend themselves. While the debate is hardly over, gun control is just another example of government planning that hasn?t lived up to its billing. And like other types of government planning, eventually its failures become too overwhelming to ignore.

John Lott, Jr., is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and is the author of The Bias Against Guns (Regnery 2004).

Finally.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2714088 - 05/22/04 08:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

An article from Foxnews, by a pro-gun "scholar" at the American Institute? Good to see your sources are as independent as ever... :thumbup:

The AEI was founded in 1943 and, like the Heritage Foundation,  clothes itself as as a research think tank. It has a Board of Trustees largely composed of right wing US business interests who have turned it into a home for the neoconservative right.

It has 50 resident scholars and fellows including, Lynne Cheney,  Jeane Kirkpatrick, Richard Perle and Robert Bork.

The principal function of the AEI appears to be that of finding a home and funding for neoconservative appointees between jobs in the Administration.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2714093 - 05/22/04 08:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Can't fault the facts so fault the source?

Sadly typical of you Alpo.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2714094 - 05/22/04 08:38 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What "facts" are you referring to?

Don't believe everything you read at Fox news. It clearly isn't good for your mental health.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2714099 - 05/22/04 08:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



GUN CRIME ROCKETS 35 PER CENT

By Bob Roberts, Political Correspondent


THE full scale of law and order breakdown in Britain was revealed last night.

Gun crime has soared by 35 per cent, robberies are up 14 per cent, sex offences by 18 per cent, violent crime by 19 per cent and burglary by eight per cent.

In the 12 months to March last year there were 9,974 offences involving firearms.

Handgun use rose by 45 per cent, said official Government statistics. The figure has doubled since the post-Dunblane ban on such weapons from 2,636 in 1998 to 5,871.

Total crime in England and Wales is up 9.3 per cent.

But the Government shrugged off the shock figures and blamed new police methods of recording crime where incidents seen by officers are logged even if they have not been reported.

Home Office minister John Denham insisted crime was "stable" and said the true rise, taking into account the new system, was only two per cent.

He also pointed to the British Crime Survey which showed a seven per cent drop.

Mr Denham said: "Crime has been falling since 1997 and the risk of being a victim is very low, around the same as in 1981."

But victim support groups and politicians said lawlessness was out of control.

The number of males murdered in shootings was up 41 per cent this year.

Victims of Crime Trust director and police officer Norman Brennan said: "For nine years we have tried to warn the Government of the crisis in the criminal justice system.

"These warnings have fallen on deaf ears and we how have a system which has collapsed."

Referring to the Lord Chief Justice Lord Woolf's ruling that fewer burglars should be jailed, he added: "At a time when we need tough action, he is taking the coward's way out rather than sending a strong message to criminals.

"He presides over the most liberal regime of judges and magistrates I've known in 25 years of policing."

Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin said: "The figures are truly terrible. The only word for this is failure. The Government's knee-jerk reactions, gimmicks and initiatives are not working.

"The figures will continue to be dreadful until the Government produces a coherent, long-term strategy to attack crime at its roots and get police back on our streets.

"Gun crime will not be cracked until gangs are broken up and the streets reclaimed for the honest citizen by proper neighbourhood policing."

Esther Freeman of the Victims Support charity added: "An increase in crime means an increase in victims. We want to see more support for these people because only half of them actually report crime to the police."

But Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Simon Hughes urged people not to panic. He said: "The overall crime picture is not a cause for complacency, but it is not a reason for shock headlines.

"Gangs which use and glorify guns as status symbols must be relentlessly targeted by police."

Paul Hampson of the Association of Chief Police Officers added: "The rise in gun offences concerns us all."

Home Secretary David Blunkett is today due to hold a meeting to discuss gun crime.

He will be joined by Home Office ministers Mr Denham and Bob Ainsworth, police, prosecutors and community leaders.

The talks are aimed at helping agencies work towards a "co-ordinated response to the increased prevalence of guns".

Mr Denham said: "I am concerned at the significant rise in firearm offences.

"We announced earlier this week we would be introducing a five-year minimum sentence for possession of a firearm as well as new offences to tighten up the law on air weapons and replica guns.

"We believe we can make a real impact on this problem with this combination.

"The meeting is to make sure we are doing all we can to tackle gun crime.

"The overall crime picture shows a lot of progress. We must target our efforts on those areas that have not been moving in the right direction."

The minister also said the British Crime Survey showed there was a "worrying lack of confidence in the criminal justice system" with just 44 per cent of adults believing it was effective.

He added: "It is a priority of the Government to tackle that issue this year."

But ministers refused to set a target on reducing firearms incidents in the same way they did with street crime last year.

ARMS TERROR IN OUR CITIES

FIVE cities account for 75% of all gun crime. They are:

London: 4,192 (2,817)

Manchester: 1,361 (964)

West Mids: 1,289 (887)

West Yorks: 332 (335)

Merseyside: 299 (278)

(Last year's figures in brackets)






BTW, Im in favour of gun control, for the UK at least....


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,208
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2714112 - 05/22/04 08:55 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What "facts" are you referring to?



The facts in the study.


Quote:

Don't believe everything you read at Fox news. It clearly isn't good for your mental health.



I don't. Unlike you, who appears to have never read an anti gun or anti america article, that you didn't agree with.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2714346 - 05/22/04 12:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If this were a gun controled nation folks like me who live outside radio range for the county sherriff would have NO protection from the wide range of rural predators.Where I live the police will only respond to a murder,they WILL NOT COME FOR ANY OTHER PROBLEM!This in spite of a Meth fueled spree of robberies,assaults and trespassings which is ongoing.
As example; 4days or so ago my kids were at the picnic table in the front of the house ,which has a large gravel pad for parking.I was preparing a meal and heard the racing of engines and gravel being kicked up by spinning wheels.My Kids screamed in surprise and fright as a small p/u was chased into my drive(mind you one must go thru an(open at the time) gate and across a bridge to get onto my property.Chasing the decrepid p/u was an even worse subaru wagon.
The guy in the subaru was out of his vehicle and was going at the guy who was just barely out of his still running truck.Now during this time my 11 year old daughter is screaming and the dogs are barking and coming down the hill after the disturbance and I am out the door and running the 100' to where these jerks are at.The guy in the truck sees me and since his vehicle is running and he is close he jumps in and takes off as approach.The other guys subaru had stalled and he restarted it just as I approached his side.as I leaned over to see what the fuck was happening he slammed it into reverse,knocked me down and backed right over my left leg.At this point I knew that trouble had found me and it was time to deal.
I jumped up smoking on adrenaline and grabbed my pistol and jumped in the truck to find and arrest these trespassing losers.
As I left my drive I noticed a third car of the road and a series of skidmarks around it and the idiot in the subaru heading back  up my direction of the road.
I crossed up the road with the truck and approached the obviosly Cranked up jerk with my gun at ready.He then rolled up his window so I thrust the gun into the vehicle shattering glass.I then proceeded to question him about his reasons for trespassing on my property and made sure he knew I was within my right to blow his head off for attempted murder by running over me then splitting in front of my family as witness.
I then told him that should I see him or his vehicle on my road again I would indeed blow him away.I then got the identity of the other party and will deal similarly with him.
All very upsetting and dramatic and NOT MY STYLE but a completly necessary way to handle the crankster gangsters out here.
Turns out this fool was staying with the crank dealer at the end of the road.
Yesterday my neighbor the crankster king of the local valley came and apologized for the behavior which appeared at my house, and assured me nothing of that sort would happen again.I asssured him that if it did and it came from his house I would shoot him,then smiled and winked.I now instead of being the bitch down the road have eliminated a developing problem in my neighborhood.The word is out that **** rd. is NOT a safe place to crank it up and be a jerk.And rather than making an enemy of my neighbor, I have gained his respect for not being a punk or a narc.His company is gone with his tangled crank fueled love triangle.And the other fellow is already being dealt with by his own family(who is indebted to my wife for aiding their mother)and was wearing a set of shiners which I doubt I could have given him(he's a big kid and would have been a hand full to knock down).Now I am sure there are many of you who will chime in with your opinions on my methods of handling this situation but one thing I assure you calling the Law would have been the single most ineffectual thing I could have done.
Gun control= hit what you aim at!
WR:wexican:
PS I have never had to brandish a firearm at another man before it is a sickening feeling.I had always likened shooting a criminal to putting down a bad dog, but I assure you it is NOT! Just using the pistol as it was intended has shaken me inside deeply.I was prepared to kill another man and that is not easy for me to digest about myself.On the other hand I would not have handled it differently.The fact is I am the sole response to dangerous situations where I live.
Last Note I have been castigated for some folks perception that I simply ran after these guys in a fit of anger for trespassing.This is wrong,First their entrance to my property endangered my kids and dogs as well as chipping the glass on two vehicles,Second when I approached one of the guys to find out what the hell was happening in my driveway I was run down by the guy,This is what I went after him for, it is called attempted murder or hit and run.Serious crimes in an uprotected valley.
This is but one reason I will NEVER give up my firearms.Now some of you will perhaps bridle up at what I've said but the facts are I dealt with a situation and it is done in 5 days, would LEO have been as efficient?(should I have been able to get one to come out)In reading the news there is no guarantee that LEO wouln't have shot him,In fact our police have shot people for simply driving away from a stop much less being run over.
In all I am very thankfull I have a gun.
Peace,
WR


--------------------
To old for this place


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2714607 - 05/22/04 02:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In all I am very thankfull I have a gun.




I'd be more thankful that he didnt have a gun and shoot you. glad to hear it turned out relatively well at least.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: Tao]
    #2714686 - 05/22/04 02:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well since he ran me down I consider that a pretty good attempt at me with a larger weapon than a gun.And also should they have been armed would they not have been using their guns on each other?when they entered my drive they were like cats scrapping,I doubt they even knew where they were.
Now if they would have had guns I would have run my children inside the house and began shooting with intent to kill without ever aproaching the vehicles.
I have had firearms my whole life and have been trained in their use by the best in this country.It is my opinion that all VOTING CITIZENS be trained in the proper use and tactics of gun ownership as personal protection and carry the status of deputy, with all the responsibilities of legaly enforcing the law including all penalties for unlawful arrest and use of a firearm.
At the point I was holding the perpatrator at gunpoint it was my decision NOT to arrest him but let him off with a STERN warning that I will back up.
I agree it is good they were not armed but that is not an arguement against enforcing your property rights or protecting your family. Just because the relative danger increases it does not decrease MY responsibilty to protect my home,family and neighbors.This is something which is clearly understood by most all able bodied men in this area as we DO NOT have the benefit of law enforcement protection for minor things like mere attempted murder.
WR


--------------------
To old for this place


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 13 years, 22 days
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2714759 - 05/22/04 03:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
Now if they would have had guns I would have run my children inside the house and began shooting with intent to kill without ever aproaching the vehicles.




Thumbs up.
Quote:


I have had firearms my whole life and have been trained in their use by the best in this country.It is my opinion that all VOTING CITIZENS be trained in the proper use and tactics of gun ownership as personal protection and carry the status of deputy, with all the responsibilities of legaly enforcing the law including all penalties for unlawful arrest and use of a firearm.




then every ghetto crackhead would just start to vote and be allowed to carry a gun. bad idea.
Quote:


At the point I was holding the perpatrator at gunpoint it was my decision NOT to arrest him but let him off with a STERN warning that I will back up.




The problem with not shooting those types of people is that htey'llc ome back. From your other posts it seems like you have a niec plot of land, I'd have just pulled the trigger and used a shovel for a few hours.
Quote:


I agree it is good they were not armed but that is not an arguement against enforcing your property rights or protecting your family. Just because the relative danger increases it does not decrease MY responsibilty to protect my home,family and neighbors.This is something which is clearly understood by most all able bodied men in this area as we DO NOT have the benefit of law enforcement protection for minor things like mere attempted murder.
WR




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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2715435 - 05/22/04 07:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
then every ghetto crackhead would just start to vote and be allowed to carry a gun. bad idea.




A gun is a lot less of a threat if the intended victims are armed and ready to defend themselves. Also consider the fact that there is actually nothing preventing the crackhead on the corner from having a gun now.

I am competent with a firearm and have a carry permit. I hope I never have a situation arise where I will have to remove it from the holster, but if one does you can be damn sure I won't hesitate to defend my life or the lives of those around me.

Good job WR. I hope you don't have to go through anything like that again.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineunbeliever
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Registered: 05/22/04
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Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: z@z.com]
    #2716993 - 05/23/04 01:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The old addage, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them" really is appropriate. The problem with any real gun control is that the barn door is wide open and the horses are long gone.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Whither Gun Control? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2717626 - 05/23/04 09:23 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

First, let's put this into perspective: a Metropolitan police spokesman has said that gun-related crime only accounts for 0.003% of all crimes they deal with. Yes, it would appear that gun crime is increasing, but from a very small base. It is not a time to panic. Also we should remember that most gun crime relates to the illegal drugs trade, which is mainly controlled by foreign gangs, for whom guns are a regular part of the business. Drug dealers have been shooting each other for some time, without the media and Home Office attention suddenly being lavished upon them.

Admittedly there are changes occurring in the gangs that dominate this market. It would seem that at the moment there are a number of Kosovans moving in on the UK. This, though, probably has far more to do with US and UK military action in Kosovo (where defeat of the Serbs has facilitated drug running through the Balkans) and Afghanistan (where defeat of the Taliban has led to the extensive production of heroin again) than with the UK's sentencing laws for gun possession. The increase in gun crime is a byproduct of the level of organised crime that we are allowing to fester within our society - an organised crime business that is being fuelled by our wrongheaded laws relating to drugs.

Mo mowlam - ex government minister

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,2763,871188,00.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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