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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: GFM]
    #3740888 -

GFM said:
Please though, allow us to kill the enemies of this nation, without your hand wringing. This doesn't mean, we'd rather kill most of them, than see them stop killing us.


I think it's perfectly understandable why people in the military would have to kill someone in a given situation. I don't have any loss of respect for those in uniform who are doing their job. I would imagine for most, but not all, it is very difficult to bring yourself to kill another person.

I just wanted to make it clear that I understand the distinction between the demands of anyone serving in any military versus those who abuse such positions and make things worse. Abu Ghraib, for example, is an example where it becomes counter-productive for such mentalities to become the norm.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: GFM]
    #3740902 -

Times have changed since the Revolution, my friend. Sorry to rain on your parade but Americans killed for a different reason during that war. This war may seem justified because of all the glittery propaganda they are puking at us, but believe me it ain't.


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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3740976 -

I never said as to IF this whole party was proper, or not. I will go down, for the record, as for my own feelings on the matter. Once you put the dog on someone, you keep it on em' till' the CRY for Mercy, REALLY cry. More time should've been spent destroying the caches of weapons BEFORE we accepted a cease of major operations.
saddam felt that he paid good money to buy votes in the UN to avoid armed conflict with the US. If I'd paid out that kind of cash, I'd play that card, too.
I, for one, knowing that my own will die in ANY numbers, am in NO hurry to see rounds fly, anywhere. Once you let that genie out of the bottle, though, you are then obligated to see it to the bitter end.
The world, does have a track record of cruelty to US prisoners. That would to me, seem to be the point I was attempting to make.
My line of work does have its own nutters, the .mil world is FULL of media files of fighters whacked out. That does nothing for me, personally. TACIT KNOWLEDGE is a power full concept.


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"Anything not nailed down, is mine.  Anything I can pry up, is not nailed down."    Richard Millhouse Nixon.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: GFM]
    #3740997 -

If only there could be more people like you in the military.


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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3741061 -

  Are you being sarcastic? just wondering :wink:  there are ALL types of folks in the service, ALL TYPES.  Stoners (hi) white trash, hip hoppers, thugs, tecnho geeks, on and on.  You can even attend wiccan services if you like, on Sunday.  It does bother some of us, when the rank and file are labeled as white bread gun toting criminal like thugs, but, we have some of them, too.
  I spent my first 6 yrs as a "trigger" guy.  I am 38, and am now in a different branch, doing a job that has NO direct link to killing operations.  Most of the jobs fall into the latter bucket.
  I've been to Iraq, but haven't yet made the trip this round,yet. Most folks, would rather see you drop the bomb, or the AK, and we can all sleep on earth tonight, but, not saying its cool, 'cause its NOT, I could, 'cause I have, bust ol' boy if he chose poorly, and didn't drop the weapon.  That DON'T make it cool, nor would I look at it as some badge of honor, cause it ain't. I do, though, find pride in being on the side of those that attempt to allow you to back down. 
  I won't even attempt to say that some of us have always worked within the confines of reason, no more than I can say abib runs with such credentials, either.  Again, one should be SLOW to let that genie outt'a that bottle.


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"Anything not nailed down, is mine.  Anything I can pry up, is not nailed down."    Richard Millhouse Nixon.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: GFM]
    #3741087 -

not at all my friend! I usually am really up front with my sarcasm, so you will know for sure when I'm being sarcastic. You should check the Pale Horse thread.


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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3741170 -

That's cool, bro. I wasn't going to throw flames, if you would have. I don't get pissy over stupid shit. I can't ask anyone to admire all the death and misery in this world, if it wasn't Iraq, it would be the Congo, and on, and on. Long after this mess, it will be some other nasty place to lament.
I, myself, could see the merit, for the shlubbly Iraqi joe six pack, to stop, let us fix your shit, go home, and join the club overcharging us for petrol, and move on with things.
Its not like we don't have a proven track record, of toppling your government, fixing your shit better than before, then buying your goods and services out of guilt, and making your nation richer for the wear. I never said I thought the process made sense?


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"Anything not nailed down, is mine.  Anything I can pry up, is not nailed down."    Richard Millhouse Nixon.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Swami]
    #3743136 -

People that like to kill people go to war. Thats why we have Marines.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Twirling]
    #3743185 -

Twirling said:
Somehow, if a foreign army invaded your city/town and killed people you knew, I doubt you'd be saying the military is trained to murder in a good way. Granted, perhaps you don't like the people surrounding you, so that point might be moot.



I'd respect them at least as "fellow warriors", in this hypothetical.  People in the military do what they are trained to do, and people in the military for the most part choose what they are trained to do. If someone wants to use a M249SAW on "ragheads" because his daddy died on 9/11, whats the big deal?
Heres a question I bet you won't answer, knowing how most people here ignore my questions and just prattle off some non sequitor...
In a volunteer military, how would anyone be in combat that didn't enjoy it?  We aren't forcing people to be infantry, they choose it. Especially in the Corps.  Isn't it obvious, when you use this logic, that each rifleman out there is enjoying, to some degree, his chosen profession?
Quote:
Yes, they're trained to murder, but in a war that's supposed to be about "liberation" and where there are already Muslims angry at the United States for killing people within their civilization, I don't think it's too bright to make a statement about how fun it is to kill Muslims.



Where did he say "Muslims"?  What if I said I wanted to gas every serial killer and rapist in America. Would you interpret that as "anti-American invective" simply because that was that nation in which the act would be undertaken? Of course not. 
Quote:
The goal of the military isn?t supposed to be murdering people for fun,



Whats better than enjoying your job!  I don't care WHY, and they aren't MURDERING people. Murder is a legal term for certain types of killings.  If you are in a war against a combtant, regular force, it's not murder.
Quote:
I can only imagine what would happen if someone like Bush or Powell made a statement about wanting to invade Iraq to kill people for fun.  :smirk:


People would be pissed. It's not the job of the government to kill people, it's their job to decide if people need to be killed. If so, they farm that job out to the  military.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3743456 -

SoopaX said:
People that like to kill people go to war. Thats why we have Marines.



that is not why all people go to war, some people go for college. when i finish i won't have any debt, when my sister finishes this spring she will have about $90,000 in student loans. when i started it was about college $ but after being there it was kinda fun, being shot at and looking for that Haji to shoot at is exciting, really gets the adreniline pumping. but that is not why all people go, i went because i love my country (and am glad i had the opportunity) others have their own reasons. i don't know anyone who like's to kill people, but gambling on those stakes is a rush. I will be honest and say that when they were shooting and we we're shooting back was an exciting time that i don't think can be matched.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #3743778 -

snoopaloop53 said:
that is not why all people go to war, some people go for college. when i finish i won't have any debt, when my sister finishes this spring she will have about $90,000 in student loans. when i started it was about college $ but after being there it was kinda fun, being shot at and looking for that Haji to shoot at is exciting, really gets the adreniline pumping. but that is not why all people go, i went because i love my country (and am glad i had the opportunity) others have their own reasons. i don't know anyone who like's to kill people, but gambling on those stakes is a rush. I will be honest and say that when they were shooting and we we're shooting back was an exciting time that i don't think can be matched.


This doesn't isolate the particular group we are referring to. If you wanted JUSt the college money, but somehow ended up in combat, you must not be terribly bright. To want to be in combat you have to ENJOY it, to VALUE it. Did you value it? IF not, why not get some training with your degree for the field you wanted to enter


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3744051 -

RandalFlagg said:

it was an extremely stupid thing to say and being a general he's at the rank where he doesn't actually have to go out and actually shoot people.

:lol:  Good point.  Anybody who is a general probably was commissioned.  When you are commissioned you immediately become an officer.  Considering American troops have not been in too many wars lately and that this guy is an officer, I would take a guess that he has probably never seen actual combat.  And now that he is a general he sure as hell is not seeing any combat right now.

It is disturbing that he celebrated killing people.  Killing people is not something that I would view as fun.  It is something that is necessary in order to perform your military duties.  Even if the people you are killing "deserve it", it would still bother me to blow someone away.

Nonetheless, I still get annoyed when foreigners insult our American manliness.  I am an American male and I am proud to say that I do not shy away from conflict.  I am not a pussy.  If some asshole in a bar pushes me I push back.  I am a logical and mature person, but I do have a backbone and I am not a pushover.  When I read news reports of how non-Americans look down upon any aggressiveness as "barbaric", it makes me think they are emasculated pussies.



here were too many posts to read, but I'll reply to this one lol.

I think that if you hold the view of killing as a duty you're thinking of them as people, and you wont be able to effectively kill. You gotta dehumanize em.


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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3744835 -

SoopaX said:
If someone wants to use a M249SAW on "ragheads" because his daddy died on 9/11, whats the big deal?


Well, technically they'd most likely be killing people on the basis of race/religion because they'd be associating "ragheads" with those responsible for 9/11 (unless they're in Afghanistan). In that sense, people who had no even remote connection to 9/11 are being killed because they belong to a religion/look like the people who are responsible for 9/11.

But I don't think that's the point you were trying to make, and it's not the point I'm trying to make in this thread. Like I said before, I understand that there are going to be people in the military who sincerely like shooting people, and while I disagree with it on a personal level, it doesn't mean that I expect the military to try & eliminate this mentality. The whole point, which has been completely avoided, is that what this General said is going to affect international relations as well as any support for the US troops, especially those in Iraq where this type of thing would only fuel more insurgency.

SoopaX said:
In a volunteer military, how would anyone be in combat that didn't enjoy it?  We aren't forcing people to be infantry, they choose it. Especially in the Corps.  Isn't it obvious, when you use this logic, that each rifleman out there is enjoying, to some degree, his chosen profession?


I highly doubt that there couldn't be anyone in the military who didn't enjoy combat. People join the military for many more reasons then because they enjoy combat and it's ridiculous to assert that all people who join enjoy combat. Many people join in the belief that they'll never have to be in combat. A lot of people join the military for financial reasons, whether to pay for college or for a long term career in something related to the field. I?ve known 2 people who served in combat because they either were interested in a career in music within the military or to finance their college education. Neither one ?enjoyed? combat, and I?d imagine a lot of people who think they would enjoy combat would change their mind once it starts.

Now if you're asking me whether it's wrong for any single person in the military to enjoy combat, I'd say of course not. The problem here isn't that I expect every person in the military to deny that they enjoy combat in some way or another. Again, this is not what I'm debating, it's that this was a public statement made by a general which, especially after Abu Ghraib, is going to have a very negative effect on what's going on in Iraq.

SoopaX said:
Where did he say "Muslims"?  What if I said I wanted to gas every serial killer and rapist in America. Would you interpret that as "anti-American invective" simply because that was that nation in which the act would be undertaken? Of course not. 



I can't believe I have to actually point this out again. He said "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for 5 years because they didn't wear a veil". There is no possible way to argue rationally that he did not refer to Muslim men when he said that. It is a different comparison to say that you'd want to gas every serial killer & rapist, versus singling out a religious cultural reference which indicates a precise religion, especially when religion is currently a major cause of the tension .


SoopaX said:
Twirling said:
The goal of the military isn?t supposed to be murdering people for fun,



Whats better than enjoying your job!  I don't care WHY, and they aren't MURDERING people. Murder is a legal term for certain types of killings.  If you are in a war against a combtant, regular force, it's not murder.


Oh, sorry, I meant "non-combatant casualties". Gee, that sounds so much nicer... :rolleyes:

Enjoying "shooting people", "murdering people", "marginalizing the disparity between non-combatant casualties & combatant casualties", whatever you want to call it, is very sadistic. Now I'm not going to get into a debate over the morality, ethics, or what have you, of the justification of whether it's okay for a person to carry out & enjoy that mentality (and I can't believe I'm even discussing that). What ever conclusion a person comes up on that issue is going to be subjective.

And once again, it comes down to making a public statement about enjoying shooting people & naturally having that mentality on a person's "job".

SoopaX said:
It's not the job of the government to kill people, it's their job to decide if people need to be killed. If so, they farm that job out to the  military.


:shake: So if the government decided that all Jewish people needed to be killed & farmed that out to the military everything would be okay simply because "it's their job"?

This whole argument is coming down to diffusion of responsibility. The idea that something is okay simply because an authority figure deems it appropriate is ridiculous. While I?m not going to bother debating the morality of whether it?s ?okay? for some people in the military to enjoy shooting people, the idea that governments have a job of deciding who ?needs? to be killed is absurd. Yes, many times it comes down to a decision to go to war in order to protect people, but in many more cases it has nothing to do with that.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Twirling]
    #3770890 -

bravo young man  :thumbup:

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Swami]
    #3770999 -

Swami said:
Full article

At a panel discussion in San Diego Tuesday, a top Marine general tells an audience that, among other things, it is "fun to shoot some people."




Well, psychosis exists for a reason. Why not put it to work? I'd much rather this guy be in some shithole killing bad guys (yes, I realize that's a subjective term), than walking down my streets at night.

Hopefully he'll die and we won't have to pay his benefits.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Twirling]
    #3776846 -

Twirling said:
Well, technically they'd most likely be killing people on the basis of race/religion because they'd be associating "ragheads" with those responsible for 9/11 (unless they're in Afghanistan). In that sense, people who had no even remote connection to 9/11 are being killed because they belong to a religion/look like the people who are responsible for 9/11.



I don't think that the soldiers in Iraq truely believe that Saddam personally had an causal relation with 9/11.  If they believe that Saddam supported terrorist actions then I'd say that it's true.  Again back to my example. If you said that all serial killers and rapists should be put to death in America, would you be anti-American?
[quote[
But I don't think that's the point you were trying to make, and it's not the point I'm trying to make in this thread. Like I said before, I understand that there are going to be people in the military who sincerely like shooting people, and while I disagree with it on a personal level, it doesn't mean that I expect the military to try & eliminate this mentality. The whole point, which has been completely avoided, is that what this General said is going to affect international relations as well as any support for the US troops, especially those in Iraq where this type of thing would only fuel more insurgency.



This will bring "more" insurgency than Al-Jizzera showing 10 hours of a day of alleged Iraqi civilian casualties from the American occupation in Iraq? I'm not  going to say that I agree with that at all.
Quote:
I highly doubt that there couldn't be anyone in the military who didn't enjoy combat. People join the military for many more reasons then because they enjoy combat and it's ridiculous to assert that all people who join enjoy combat. Many people join in the belief that they'll never have to be in combat.



when you enter the military you take a profiency examination. If you score high on this exam you are able to pick your MOS. If you don't, the service you are joining picks for you.  Therefore, if a person with reasonable intelligence joined the military and choose to be a nuclear engineer, thats what they'd be doing.  Why would the military put some geek in combat when ten times his number of jocks are joining to kill people?
Quote:
A lot of people join the military for financial reasons, whether to pay for college or for a long term career in something related to the field. I?ve known 2 people who served in combat because they either were interested in a career in music within the military or to finance their college education. Neither one ?enjoyed? combat, and I?d imagine a lot of people who think they would enjoy combat would change their mind once it starts.



If you could show me where musical corps troops were deployed in any recent combat action, i'd be happy to hear them. It sounds to me like your friend had a talent and scored high on a test. That combination earned him a position where he didn't have to go to combat. Right or wrong?
Quote:
Now if you're asking me whether it's wrong for any single person in the military to enjoy combat, I'd say of course not. The problem here isn't that I expect every person in the military to deny that they enjoy combat in some way or another. Again, this is not what I'm debating, it's that this was a public statement made by a general which, especially after Abu Ghraib, is going to have a very negative effect on what's going on in Iraq.



They hate us and want to kill us. This thing doesn't matter to them. The more insurgents they send the more we kill.
[quote[
I can't believe I have to actually point this out again. He said "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for 5 years because they didn't wear a veil". There is no possible way to argue rationally that he did not refer to Muslim men when he said that. It is a different comparison to say that you'd want to gas every serial killer & rapist, versus singling out a religious cultural reference which indicates a precise religion, especially when religion is currently a major cause of the tension .



If you wanted to kill all serial killers in America, it would be clear you were singling out Americans. Statistically it would also come down to white males by a pretty large percentage  Why is it that you look at race more as an issue than those that you allege to be racist?  The combat personnel are probably very upset with the way of life that these people are forced to live in and they  remove and excise that cancer as frequently as they can.  If the guy is white, Arab, Hindu or black, they are still a despicable human being.

It's idiotic to postulate that their would be any other persons in this region to target.  Do you think it has the same racial makeup of people that America does? it's a vast majority of Arab/Persians that are of the same racial stock.  how could you go in there, against any 'group', and NOT be targetting mainly people of those traits?
Quote:
Oh, sorry, I meant "non-combatant casualties". Gee, that sounds so much nicer... :rolleyes:



If you can show me instances of inteintional, unprosecuted events of US military personel intentionally targeting civilians or civilian institutions in Iraq, I'd be very appreciative.
Quote:
Enjoying "shooting people", "murdering people", "marginalizing the disparity between non-combatant casualties & combatant casualties", whatever you want to call it, is very sadistic. Now I'm not going to get into a debate over the morality, ethics, or what have you, of the justification of whether it's okay for a person to carry out & enjoy that mentality (and I can't believe I'm even discussing that). What ever conclusion a person comes up on that issue is going to be subjective.

And once again, it comes down to making a public statement about enjoying shooting people & naturally having that mentality on a person's "job".



I think that if most Americans could face down a wall full of the worst sort of criminals in existance they would be happy to tear into them with a SAW.
[/quote[
:shake: So if the government decided that all Jewish people needed to be killed & farmed that out to the military everything would be okay simply because "it's their job"?



Of course not. Read my postion, then read about libertarianism and THEN tell me what oyu think about this. 
Quote:
This whole argument is coming down to diffusion of responsibility. The idea that something is okay simply because an authority figure deems it appropriate is ridiculous. While I?m not going to bother debating the morality of whether it?s ?okay? for some people in the military to enjoy shooting people, the idea that governments have a job of deciding who ?needs? to be killed is absurd. Yes, many times it comes down to a decision to go to war in order to protect people, but in many more cases it has nothing to do with that.


If the guy has a gun and is in the "bad guys" army, you shoot him. Thats just how wars work. It's pretty dumb really when you think about it, but thats the basic formula.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Twirling]
    #3778982 -


Enjoying "shooting people", "murdering people", "marginalizing the disparity between non-combatant casualties & combatant casualties", whatever you want to call it, is very sadistic. Now I'm not going to get into a debate over the morality, ethics, or what have you, of the justification of whether it's okay for a person to carry out & enjoy that mentality (and I can't believe I'm even discussing that). What ever conclusion a person comes up on that issue is going to be subjective.

You've been discussing morality and ethics since you entered the thread. Your argument is sketchy and jumps around, but basically you are against someone enjoying war.

Are you a pacifist, against all forms of aggression? Do you think that a military should exist?

Those are valid discussions on ethics, not the inner feelings of a person who is doing their job. Whether their job is morally right or wrong can be debated, but by putting an ethical standpoint on feelings you won't get anywhere, and its a complete dodge from the main questions, such as the ones presented above.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: looner2]
    #3784452 -

Alright, this is getting absurd. I have never said that I think that people in the military shouldn't enjoy combat or that I'm basing any of what I'm saying of the ethical standpoint on feelings. Both of you are making assumptions on me and then using that as your argument. Both of you have brought up the idea that I'm expecting the military to not have anyone in their ranks who enjoys combat when I never said that. I've even explicitly said over & over again that I understand that the military is a necessity and yet somehow this is being brought up. After all those repeated statements I?ve made, I'm being told my argument is sketchy, jumps around, and is "basically that I'm against someone enjoying war".

I?ve had to repeat myself so many times that this discussion has gotten to be pointless.

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: Swami]
    #3786194 -

is anyone really surprised by this?

I mean, the Army uses a video game to recruit...

http://www.americasarmy.com/
(your tax dollars at work)

it contains a shitload of army propoganda, but its also a pretty good first person shooter (if you like getting hunted by a bunch of 13 year olds).

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Re: Marine General: "It's fun to shoot some people!" [Re: looner2]
    #3786231 -

Quote:
but basically you are against someone enjoying war


I'm not against soldiers or generals enjoying war.
I'm against dumbass generals actually coming out and SAYING they enjoy war.
doesn't he know we're in the middle of one?

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